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Sort of a lecture series I’m starting along these lines. Still laying the foundations but you can read a couple of essays that might interest you and your readers. |
Ick. Icky spammer. |
Orwell |
Ah, never mind. You deleted the spam-comment before I posted my comment. Yeah, “ick” factors can come from many corners, both those in the center of the gospel, and those on the fringes. I’m afraid I engender feelings like the guy you talk about. People either admire me or think I’m icky. So, thanks for the warning. I’ve met some Utahns (usually missionaries, but in the past it was MTC branch presidents) who tried to sound like GA’s, in their word choices, demeanor, tone of voice, and voice pattern. But it was an affectation, and sounded icky. Like the guy you describe, they weren’t spouting off any heresies, or things you could point to and say are wrong, but the whole feeling was wrong. I find that when I have the Spirit with me, it’s like having armor or insulation on, and while I might notice something’s not quite right with another person, it doesn’t bother me. But if I lose the Spirit, I lose the armor/insulation, and someone else’s ickyness really gets to me, and it’s easy to be offended. (Of course, weirdness is like farts: you can tolerate your own, but every one else’s stink.) A couple things that can get to me are the Utahn “up-talk” that many missionaries from the mountain west seem to have. It’s almost like a Californian “valley girl” accent, where they give inflection to the last syllable of a sentence turning it almost into a question, but which just makes it seem manipulative. Sometimes it’s the Utah “lilt”, a rolling sing-song way of talking. When it’s affected, not natural, like a non-Utahn missionary trying to sound spiritual like his Utahn companion, it’s even more grating and artificial sounding. I admire people who can teach a lesson, give a sacrament talk, or pray, and they don’t change persona from who they are otherwise. Some people go through such as shift that it’s jarring. And I don’t mean the normal shift most people who through when they get up in front of an audience. I remember when some missionaries in my mission tried (maybe unconciously) to bring the Spirit merely by using voice patterns and tone of voice. It felt very manipulative, unrighteous, and “icky.” Some would turn it off and on at will, like throwing a switch when a missionary discussion started, and turning off the switch when we left the investigator. There’s an example in the New Testament of someone saying the right things, but with the wrong spirit. I think it’s in Acts where Peter casts a demon out of someone who correctly identified them as being God’s servants. I don’t mean to imply all icky people have demons, but to illustrate that people can say truthful things and still not be on good standing themselves. And, just because something is truthful/correct, robbing a missionary of his study time or sleep is not the correct time for it. |
Brother Rock kind of sounds like Nick the White Mormon: |
I sat next to a guy like that at work Friday. He said he’d been married, and divorced, twice. He had 9 kids. He still wore his wedding ring, because, he said, although they’d been divorced over a year, they had been married in the temple. Gross. I’m looking him up on the sex offender website. It’s really easy to fool me. I never people once they’ve done that, but it takes me quite awhile to figure out some people are icky. Like other peoples’ farts LOL. |
I was in a branch once with a man who revealed in a testimony or talk that he had a spiritual gift with which he knew, just by looking at someone, where they were on their “spiritual journey”–he could determine how worthy a person was. Any person. He was specifically talking about a stranger in a Wal-mart parking lot. I found that significantly creepy, but I am not aware of any followers he had except his wife. Another guy in a ward was just crazy, and I think everyone recognized that. I think he moved every few months up and down the east coast and basically lived off the wards he was in; when I was helping him get a food order once, he told me he knew I was an alien (like it was our little secret). Cool. |
Members of my family had a a similar run in with this spiritual whacko http://ionelectric.tripod.com/_disc11/00000047.htm Luckly it was before he went off the deeper end and ended up in Salt Lake. When I returned home from my mission, a few days later I found this guy in my mom’s house trying to give special blessings to her and my sisters. I kicked him out quick like. At times I think most members of the church don’t really understand what the spirit feels like. This guy was not spiritual. Charasmatic? Sure. Knew how to play off peoples emotions? Sure. Knew all the right words to use? Yep. Spiritual? Not in the least bit. |
JA Benson:
What are you smoking? This is totally OK — just read the Twilight series and it will all make sense to you. Bookslinger:
This is how people generally react to me. Except for the admiring part. Tagore, it’s really classless of you to promote your agenda by linking to videos of yourself. Besides, when you dress up as Nick the White Mormon, you have to get all theatrical with your costume and makeup in order to get your creep on. For Brother Rock it was a spiritual gift. annegb, you’ll have to return and report on that. ESO:
I once dated a girl who I swear thought that she had that gift (though she wasn’t stupid enough to [i]admit[/i] that she thought she had it). She was totally a disciple of this list, by the way. It didn’t last because I didn’t like having my “countenance” scrutinized all the time. |
JM, the description of this guy’s stare from the link you provide is eerily like Brother Rock (though I know that they’re not the same person):
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Yep. Trés creepy!!! These “types” have a common element to them. My shields go up and my phasers are set to a very strong stun whenever I run across any of them… |
We once had an older brother in our ward who faked a heart attack during sacrament meeting. The worry and attention he received impressed him so much he faked cancer over several months. He started shaving his head and had the Relief Society bringing meals every evening for months. The Elder’s Quorum was even cooking him breakfast a couple of times a week and he got his house cleaned once a week. When the truth of his fakery came out the Bishop made him confess in Priesthood and Relief Society meeting. Even then he was using weasel words until the bishop got up and explained exactly what happened, so nobody would misunderstand. Shortly therafter he moved away, no doubt to continue the facade elsewhere. |
On my mission, we translated using headsets for English-speaking people there. One crazy member stood up in Fast and Testimony meeting and told about how Joseph Smith appeared to her the prior week to give her some answers. She said a few other things as well. I translated it into English as, “I have a testimony of Joseph Smith. Many of the things he taught us have helped me in my life. Etc.” |
There’s one guy in the bloggernacle I would put in this camp. One company I worked for brought in a guy to manage my department (that’s a long way to avoid saying “I once worked for this guy …” because I never would have worked *for* a jerk like Darrell) who fits the bill. He was a new graduate of BYU’s business school. He announced in one department meeting that “integrity” meant behaving at all times and in all places the exact same way he would behave in all other times and places — meaning that he intended to bring religion overtly into every facet of our department life. This took the form of giving department instruction in meetings that were parodies of church meetings — they began and ended with prayer, his economic and organizational behavior points were made by quoting scripture, he bore his testimony to us of the truthfulness of, say, increasing our department output. The thing that turned it from being merely tasteless (and creating the potential for lawsuits) into absolute priestcraft was that he acted as if he were called of God to be our department supervisor, and that we owed him and his corporate authority the same respect, deference, reverence, whatever, that we might pay to a priesthood leader’s authority. I complained, and Dweeb fired me for insubordination. I suppose he wanted to call it excommunication for rebellion against God’s anointed, but even he knew that wouldn’t look so good on paper, even in Utah County. |
Ardis- Ewww. I have two degrees from BYU and I still can’t stand having non-family prayers outside of church buildings. I worked for a professor that instructed us to pray for inspiration about our research projects, etc, and he just came off as a self-righteous jerk. |
“There’s one guy in the blogÂgerÂnaÂcle I would put in this camp.” Is your sense so finely developed to get this over blogs, or do you know this person in real life? Fascinating comment. |
For the record, i’m not too fond of my own farts either… I honestly haven’t met any crazies who fit this description at church. I’ve met plenty of crazies, just none that thought they were all that. I did however meet a crazy on my mission while out one day. He had long hair down to the middle of his back, and a well trimmed beard. He was extremely well groomed and had nice clean clothes on. He claimed he was walking to the coast to preach the gospel. We asked him if he’d heard of the Book of Mormon, and he said yes, and that he believed in it. We also asked him if he believed that a man had to be ordained of God by laying on of hands. That’s when he told us that God’s hands appeared and God laid his hands on his head and called him to be an apostle. Well, we couldn’t argue with him on this matter. He totally had us stumped. We gave him a copy of the Book of Mormon and sent him on his way. I will forever remember him as Gary the Apostle. |
At times there can be a fine line between insanity and inspiration. Most prophets, even Jesus, were thought to be crazy by their contemporaries. And many crazies claim to be inspired. And I think we gotta admit, the whole LDS foundational narrative, a 14 year-old seeing God, then an angel (who nobody else saw) in his bedroom, then digging up buried gold, is crazy by worldly standards. And even the foundation of Christianity as seen by non-Christians: “Ok, so your God was born to a mortal woman, grew up, and then died, but then he came back to life, right?” And then “Pay you 10% of what I make, plus give up cigarettes, beer AND coffee? Plus THREE hours on Sunday? Whoa!” Sometimes, those on the fringe, or those we think to be flawed, are humble enough to be more receptive to the more unconventional promptings of the Spirit. As tools of discernment, we have at least three things available: 1) The Lord’s order of a top-down hierarchy for church doctrine and directing the activities of various church units: The First Presidency, the Quorum of the 12, the 70′s, the area 70′s, Stake presidents, Mission presidents, Bishops and branch presidents, quorum/RS presidents, family heads, individuals. We’re all free to share opinions, but revelation, doctrine and commandments come from the top down. 2) We are all entitled to some form of spiritual discernment or to receive confirmation from the Holy Ghost about what we see, hear or read. 3) Local leaders with whom we can consult confidentially, and review with them any seemingly crazy ideas we might have. (So far no one’s told me to stop talking to strangers and offering them a “church book” in their language.) This post _really_ hits home with me, because I realize it’s my life-long lack of awareness of social conventions (or rather the late development of that awareness) that has enabled me to ask a stranger “Hey, would you like a free book in your language from my church?” It’s an example of how God in His mercy turned a weakness or handicap into a strength or useful tool. So I’d say to be charitable to the fringey folk, the awkward, the flawed, and the late bloomers. In regards to those you think have caused or might cause trouble for others, take your concerns to the Bishop or quorum/RS president. Chances are the bishop is already aware of their situation. And if it’s a matter of abuse, and your Bishop doesn’t take it seriously, go to your stake president. And if you honestly think children have been hurt, or are in imminent danger, take it to the police too. |
15: ESO, it’s the smarmy, smug, self-righteous tone of everything he says that gives me that creepy feeling. It just isn’t his place to call us to repentance in the way he does, and his attempts to dictate what we should discuss, and how, have an aura of manipulation that is part of every creepy situation I’ve known in real life. – Bookslinger, there’s every difference between what you do and the kind of situation we — at least I — are thinking of. You offer; they impose. You care enough about the nuances to make sure a Muslim understands that your material is Christian; they don’t care about offending. You deliver your material and step into the background; they keep coming back to strengthen their personal position. You’re thinking of doing good for the person you’re talking to; they’re thinking about what’s in it for themselves. |
I served my mission in a place where the church is really small and there are very few members. A lot of the members we had were rather eccentric. This ended up being to their benefit because often eccentric people are less self-conscience about what others think about them. Most of these members were quirky, but faithful and I had a lot of respect for them. There were a couple of people that were weird in a creepy way as described in this post. I remember Dan the Blessing Man who would give blessings to less-actives, investigators or anyone else who would listen to him. Rumor had it that this guy had been on LSD and I believed it. I couldn’t believe that anyone could be gullible enough to take this guy seriously, but then there were a lot of interesting people in that ward. |
Ardis, I’ll try to do better. (j/k) |
I’ve met some Utahns (usually missionaries, but in the past it was MTC branch presidents) who tried to sound like GA’s That is bad enough, but what is really scary are GA’s that try to sound like prototypical GA’s. |
And many crazies claim to be inspired. I think the reason why they are crazy is because they can’t tell the difference. |
I had a great encounter with P Craft when the living scripture guy showed up at our house. The guy set up a little tape player and starting playing primary songs on it. I was shocked!!!!! I did not buy |
I had a great encounter with P Craft when the living scripture guy showed up at our house. We kicked him out after about 5 minutes (this was about 8 years ago). |