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I’m with you, DKL. I read the first Twilight novel for background on something else I was writing, knowing that I wasn’t exactly the target audience, and I found it perfectly adequate. It’s not “deserving” of its success, but neither was Harry Potter, or whatever was the last Stephen King novel that anyone actually read. Something has to be flavor of the month, and Meyer’s work is as good in that regard as any. |
I think people mock Twilight for the same reason non-Bostohenians hate the Sox. It’s less about the object and more about the fans. No, we won’t be attending the Twilight-themed EQ party. Or the enrichment night. Or the youth activity to see the movie. I think that the tide is turning and being anti-Twilight is finally becoming socially acceptable. One of my irritations is that a lot of the popularity inside the Church is simply due to the Mormon celebrity factor — why can’t Church members enjoy stuff because it’s good, not because of who wrote it? It’s like the legions of Shawn Bradley apologists I still meet, who think he got pigeonholed in the NBA (no, he sucked. Really.). Or the Mormons who rooted for the 49ers or Eagles simply based on who played QB or coached. (I have read the first book, finally. And I agree with the women in my family that it’s not a great read, that Meyer telegraphs her plot too much, and that Bella is an insult to emotionally healthy women.) (Now, that said – I like Grisham and tolerated Rowling. Both are Steinbeck compared to Meyer.) |
Or Bostonians, even. I have a uber-sensitive keyboard and have been having issues typing… |
Do you think Mormon book snobs “attack” Meyers more than non-Mormon book snobs? I say no. At least, not in my circles (I confess: not having read the books, nor am I likely to, I just haven’t discussed these books much). It’s a book snobbery issue rather than a co-religionist issue, IMO. BUT, maybe your expectations are that Mormon book snobs should know better than to “attack” an author because “attack” is not very Christ-like. In that case, sure. But critique is certainly different than “attack.” If someone feels the books are poorly written, predictable, untrue to vampire lore, too wordy, etc etc, I hardly think that qualifies as “attack;” surely Christians can be allowed to have opinions about what art is worthy of their attention and time based on the craft or entertainment value of it, can’t they? Sure: to reject something just because it is perceived as popular is dumb. You might be missing out on something very enjoyable. But to embrace something just because it is popular is equally as dumb, isn’t it? I suspect that Mormons, and perhaps particularly Mormon women, are probably more likely to feel an affinity for SM, not because of her books, just because they like the narrative of a SAHM (perhaps like themselves) writing a book, finding a publisher, and becoming a multi-millionaire. I don’t have to love the work product (and indeed, don’t really care if other Mormons are professionally successful or not, as long as they are not an embarrassment to our religion, like running a pyramid scheme, or assassins for hire, or something) to admire the fact that you worked and people liked your work. Way to go. High-five. But vampire stuff doesn’t really interest me, thanks. Glad it has worked for you, SM. |
BTW, DKL–now I see how inspired your mission call was: EVERYONE (not hyperbole, I assure you) in Japan reads comics on the trains. From 5-senior citizen. Everyone. Your people, I can tell. And when I took Joyce’s Ulysses to Beach Week after high school graduation, no one thought anything of it or commented at all. But I didn’t finish it there, I confess. Too distracted by hating the beach. |
ESO, I think you’re missing the point. I’m not trying to speak for DKL, but my observations of the criticism of the Twilight series and its adherents are that such criticism goes way beyond critiques on literary merit. The books, the movies and the people who enjoy them are sometimes being attacked in ways that are truly insulting and unfair. I believe there’s something sexist about much of the criticism. You don’t see books with a male author and male target audience receiving this kind of treatment. |
DKL is awesome. |
Nothing exposes the blind opportunism of a pretentious pseudo-sophisticate more than his reaction to the overwhelmingly popular Like Michael Jackson? |
The criticism is all over the place. Facebook, forums I frequent, at work, etc. And it has nothing to do with Mormons as far as I can tell, because most of the people I associate with aren’t members of the church. The books are poorly written from the little I’ve read, but they’re YA fiction, and from my days as a librarian most of the stuff in the YA section was crap. Comparing the Twilight books to the greatest novel you’ve ever read is a bad idea, instead compare it to Harry Potter or The Hunger Games. And my daughter and I read comics in public all the time. I’m suddenly much happier about it now that I know it might influence someone to buy the latest volume of Flight or Ex Machina, or just read comics in public themselves. |
DKL, you’re just saying this cause you find yourself strangely aroused by Taylor Lautner’s smokin’ abs. |
The Only True and Living Nathan, I think that there’s a lot more to it than “flavor of the month.” Diversion is an important aspect of all types of art, especially literature. Betrand Russell shrewdly noted that “Boredom as a factor in human behavior receives far less attention than it deserves.” My theory of aesthetics places art among the things that we generally pursue to flee boredom — one seldom has a strong concern for art when she is dying of starvation or hunger. Russell, of course, is among the greatest minds of the modern era, and in his spare time he tended to read cheap mystery novels. queno, I think that your comment is an example of the exact outlook that I’m criticizing. ESO and MCQ, MCQ’s response embodies my opinion, and states it more concisely than I was likely to. I’ll just note that our cultural mythology contains stories like The Emperors New Clothes that exalt the person willing to stand apart from the crowd. Of course, people who reject the popular because it’s popular are simply opting for the orthodoxy of a different herd. Even so, I can’t think of any comparable stories about people who gratuitously reject good things because they’re the product of the “unwashed masses.” Perhaps we should create some. E: DKL is awesome. Thanks for the kind words. Peter LLC: Nothing exposes the blind opportunism of a pretentious pseudo-sophisticate more than his reaction to the overwhelmingly popular…. Like Michael Jackson? No. Like Billy Mays. jjohnson, I’m glad to hear that we share an interest in comic books. Aaron Brown: DKL, you’re just saying this cause you find yourself strangely aroused by Taylor Lautner’s smokin’ abs. You must have me confused with Miranda Park Jones! |
I thought Twilight was boring. I stopped reading and sold the book. I have no beef with any true followers of the series. |
“The books are poorly written from the little I’ve read” If they were so poorly written why do so many people like them? We’re talking about a lot of people that don’t read a lot of books and they take time to read this!? I read them and I really enjoyed them. Was it like reading Shakespeare, Tolstoy or Dickens? Absolutely not! Some books are like a main course to be eaten and savored and contemplated and add value to your life. Other books are desert you start and can’t stop, it didn’t change your life but it was well worth it. Tolstoy is a main course, Twilight is desert. You can’t compare pumpkin pie to Turkey and mashed potatoes but they’re both good. I could continue the analogy but I think you catch my drift. Is this criticism more prevalent among Mormons? I think it may be, but not because Meyers is Mormon, rather because Mormons seem to be more inclined to criticize something that is popular (especially Young Womens Leaders). |
““The books are poorly written from the little I’ve read†If they were so poorly written why do so many people like them? We’re talking about a lot of people that don’t read a lot of books and they take time to read this!?” Twilight is about the same quality as DaVinci Code. Like I said, fine for what it is, but don’t try to tell me it’s well written. |
“But it does provide an entertaining book that you can’t put down once it starts and so Stephanie Meyer must have been good at something.” Actually I can, and did, put down two Stephanie Meyer novels (Twilight and the non-vampire novel she did). And I never said she wasn’t good at what she does. Michael Bay is great at making crap movies with lots of explosions and unintelligible plotlines. She’s good at teen romance novels. |
On one hand, I suspect that people are right about the quality of writing, but that is not always the point. Interestingly, there were several novelists who appeared to Wilford Woodruff, so I think we had ought to be careful about denying personal inspiration, in spite of how poorly it was written. Harry Potter, for all its shortcomings in the midst of a decline in reading, got ordinary kids reading tomes the size of the old testament. For all of Rowlings faults, that is no mean task. Likewise, for all of her shortcomings, Meyers introduce abstinence as a good thing to the over-sexed pornographied culture we live in, and in a way they could relate too, intensely. To make the rising generation desire chastity,not because they are ascetics, but because they honestly do love intensely, is a very worthwhile thing. There is nothing wrong with a bit of critical analysis, but if we do not see the good it does, we are over-critical. It is faultfinding, even if it is a book. |
My husband’s always trying to get me to read Thomas Pynchon. I’ll be more interested when he can write like Stephenie Meyer. |
MCQ and DKL–I really don’t think I am missing the point–I think I am disagreeing. I simply have not witnessed any criticism that I thought egregious. Like I said, though, I haven’t spent much time at all discussing the collected works of SM. Aren’t I allowed to have had a different set of experiences than you? From what I have seen, the attitude non-fans have of Twilight fans is akin to how non-fans of Star Trek or Star Wars perceive Trekies or people who named their kids Han and Leia. They don’t understand the appeal and some of the more zealous fans elicit eye-rolls or even chiding, but not anger or attacks. Believe me, if I felt people were discriminating against Twilight fans or author because of gender, I would certainly be concerned. I, and many, just have as little interest in reading THESE books as I have in reading the myriad male-authored who-done-its my dad picks up on clearance tables everywhere. No thanks; to each his own. |
“I simply have not witnessed any criticism that I thought egregious. Like I said, though, I haven’t spent much time at all discussing the collected works of SM. Aren’t I allowed to have had a different set of experiences than you?” You’re allowed. But your lack of experience in this regard does not negate the fact that it is happening. You just need to get out more. BTW, who are Hans and Leia? “Believe me, if I felt people were discriminating against Twilight fans or author because of gender, I would certainly be concerned.” Get ready to be concerned: |
“Why is Two and a Half Men such a popular tv show? Why is Transformers 2 the biggest money maker of the year? I hope you aren’t equating popularity with quality. Twilight is about the same quality as DaVinci Code. Like I said, fine for what it is, but don’t try to tell me it’s well written.” Maybe I’m just too pedestrian to understand what ‘well written’ is. I never equated SM’s writing to Shakespeare, but if it is something I enjoy reading (and I’m apparently not alone in this). Why can’t it be a ‘well written’ book? Or at worst, a not poorly written book? It is what it is… I like Two and a Half Men and it probably comes closer to Shakespeare than SM. Well written seems pretty subjective and a book may be ‘well written’ according to the ‘experts’ but no one will want to read it. So I guess it depends on your definition of well written… There is also a difference between watching a 2 hour movie because of a lot of hype around it (not to mention eye candy) and investing many hours in the course of several days to finish a book. So if a book is written in a way that it is enjoyable and appeals to a lot of people I’d say it’s a fairly well written book despite what the critics say. |
Stephanie Meyer is not my cup of tea, but I find myself defending her all the time. You have to admit that she has created something that a large audience finds compelling. It is interesting to ask (without any hint of a value judgment) what that thing is. Of course, Meyer is not above critique. I strongly disagree with the view (see comments above) that quality judgments about art are too subjective to be meaningful. I have read bits and pieces of Meyer, and her prose style did not blow me away. But comparing Meyer to towering works of literary fiction fundamentally misunderstands what Meyer is doing. It is like saying the Beatles White Album is crap because it really can’t hold a candle to Mahler’s 9th. Finally, I don’t think DKL’s mention of Meyer’s Mormonism in this context is a non-sequitur. Mormons should be able to rejoice with Meyer over her success. People who can’t help tearing her down seem to reveal more about themselves (their pettiness and jealousy) than Meyer or her books. |
Stephanie Meyer, more Twain then Hemingway? It’s fine with me if DKL defends Twilight as a stand alone work, but don’t defend the 3rd and 4th books. A pretty non-critical source has told me that she slogged through #3 out of some misplaced sense of duty and gave up entirely during #4. |
“It’s not enough to dislike them. One must express his dislike for them vehemently, as if to exclaim, “That’s not who I am. I would never enjoy that.†There’s a pride in this pretension of the worst sort,” Um, no. There is no pride whatsoever. Just a fact. I have teenaged girls, so I read 2.5 of the books, to try to figure out what the draw was. That showed respect for the work. But I still say that is not who I am, and I will never enjoy it. Thankfully, my own girls are not huge fans. They read them because their friends did, and to be not totally outside mainstream culture. I’m not a “pseudo-sopisticate.” It is just not my thing. It should not be a problem to say so, without being put down for failing to jump on the bandwagon. |
I concur with the sentiment, but I’d be much more eager to agree if the books weren’t so terrible. There’s definitely a lot of extra-curricular antagonism towards the books and their fans, but at the end of the day, the books really are really bad. That fact essentially mutes all the other issues for me. |
Those of you who simply don’t care for this series are not what we are talking about here. Here’s another article that makes the point well: http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=girls_just_wanna_have_fangs Money quote: “Twilight is more than a teen dream. It’s a massive cultural force. Yet the very girliness that has made it such a success has resulted in its being marginalized and mocked. Of course, you won’t find many critics lining up to defend Dan Brown or Tom Clancy, either; mass-market success rarely coincides with literary acclaim. But male escapist fantasies — which, as anyone who has seen Die Hard or read those Tom Clancy novels can confirm, are not unilaterally sophisticated, complex, or forward-thinking — tend to be greeted with shrugs, not sneers. The Twilight backlash is vehement, and it is just as much about the fans as it is about the books. Specifically, it’s about the fact that those fans are young women.”
 Saying that this series is not your thing is fine. Don’t think it’s well-written? Great. Saying Meyer or her fans are morons? Not so much. |
MCQ, that’s a great excerpt that makes exactly the point that I was getting at when I said that nobody has ever made fun of me for my enjoyment of James Bond novels. |
I would buy into the criticism if it wasn’t so personal to Meyer and her readers. Often times there is the mention of how bad the writing is with very few examples. The bulk of the criticism then goes into how Meyer must be a repressed anti-feminist, the readers are unintelligent fools, and for some it proves the ridiculousness of Mormonism. Having read the first book I won’t argue they are well written, but the story can be captivating. At least as captivating as any older (before he became a literary snob) Stephen King or Tom Clancy. I like what Eric Snider said about the movie “New Moon” in his evaluation, “I think the movie will probably give you what you’re looking for — which isn’t to say it’s a great movie, only that it’s basically successful at achieving the not-very-lofty goals it sets for itself.” The books are the same way from what I have read of them. We all know about “Harry Potter,” that YA books must now be compared. I wonder if “Holes” that was popular to the same intended audience can hold up to the same scrutiny. It just never reached phenom status. If the criticisms weren’t so serious and personal, I wouldn’t care. They aren’t on my list of must reads. However, I never took them seriously to begin with recognizing the genre (Romance and YA, and not horror) that they belong. For the rest it seems they represent the end of the world if not fought against. |
And there is this drive to empathize with idiots like Spielberg and exclaim that those who disagree are cretans who don’t “get†art. Capitalize the word ‘Cretans’ – or risk angering the people from the largest of the Greek islands. |
MCQ #19: You just need to get out more. You got me there–I totally need to find a babysitter so I can get out to where, according to you, rampant gender discrimination is pulling down an artist and her fans for no other reason than that they are female. Sounds like a great time. |
ESO, for shame! Gender discrimination is a serious issue. You should never, ever think of it as a “good time.” |
I’ve never heard any Mormons cirticicing Twilight and I live right here in the height of Mormon country. Oh, look how I speleed criticize, how funny. Anyway, it’s like a religion around here. The only person I know who said anything awful about Twilight is my trainer on my job, an English major who hated the book based on the awful writing. Gee Whiz, I’m pretty sure all the ladies in our book club have read it. And read it out loud to their kids for family home evening. |
Sorry about my typing. feeling off today. but you know, the book “The Host” is really a good book. Better than the Twilight ones, IMHO. |
ESO, if you’re actually trying to disagree with me, then I think you’ve still missed the point. Best I can tell, you haven’t laid a finger on any of my arguments. a random john: Stephanie Meyer, more Twain then Hemingway? Meyer’s neither Twain nor Hemingway, but (like Sarah Palin) the dislike that elitists show for her demonstrates once again why elitists are dumber than the masses that they look down on. a random john: It’s fine with me if DKL defends Twilight as a stand alone work, but don’t defend the 3rd and 4th books. A pretty non-critical source has told me that she slogged through #3 out of some misplaced sense of duty and gave up entirely during #4. In case you missed my post, I’m defending the works of Stephanie Myers and their fans. As I point out, Dickens slogged through Great Expectations because he was broke and needed the cash. On some level, that’s an interesting fact, but it has as much to do with the defensibility of attacks on the Great Expectations as it does on the Twilight Series. Besides, I’m not defending the Twilight books (and their fans) based on any presumption of quality. I’m just saying that if you don’t like the books, it’s simply enough not to like them. To go further than that by disparaging Twilight fans (as I’ve often seen done) is inexcusable. I positively hated the movie The Curious Case of Benjamin Buttons, but that doesn’t mean that I have to disparage those who found it to be thoroughly enjoyable. jjohnsen: Comparing the Twilight books to the greatest novel you’ve ever read is a bad idea, instead compare it to Harry Potter or The Hunger Games. Actually, it’s a great idea to compare Twilight to the greatest novel I’ve ever read, because that gets straight to the heart of the matter. Specifically, let’s compare it to Great Expectations. Nowadays, people read it as Great Literature, often in connection with an academic interest, if not an actual academic assignment. Those first readers who encountered it in the 1860s in serialized form or who bought the compiled novel once it had completed serialization didn’t read the Cliff Notes. For a great many of its readers, the fact that they were reading a landmark Engish-language literary work was totally lost on them. Same with the illiterates who paid a penny to see Hamlet. You’re notion of Great Literature is anachronistic. Mark Twain crafted a clever aphorism to the effect that a classic is a book that people praise but don’t read, and you’re conception of Great Literature — that it’s something is best read for one’s own good and not as a mere diversion — is what keeps people from reading classics more often. The truth is that Dickens is as good a diversion as any James Bond novel. |
The thing about Twilight is that it clearly hits the right buttons for so many girls and women out there. Whatever the books are doing wrong, they are also clearly touching on something that is important to women and doing so very effectively. I tried to read a few paragraphs of the first Twilight book – and put it right back down again. It’s not for me. Not my cup of tea. |
DKL, I also slogged through Great Expectations for cash. Also, in case it wasn’t clear, my entire comment was an attempt at teasing you. People can read whatever they want. The fact that they read at all is often miraculous. |
DKL, I think it might also have to do with where one lives. Mormons I know here are somewhat proud of this active LDS author. No one here has problem with Twilight. But then again I’m reading ‘Escape’ ,Carolyn Jessop’s story of getting out of the FLDS so maybe I shouldn’t opine. |
It’s funny, in my ward, I’m the only one I know that has not read the Twilight books. When people hear that I majored in English and that I love to read, I find that I have to defend myself even more. Usually it goes something like this, “If you love to read, then why haven’t you read Twilight?” But I totally get what your saying. It’s the pretentiousness that is annoying. Once I went to a party for the English department (what a blast). Two girls walked in – both holding a copy of Moby Dick. … Thanks for the Interesting post. |
Not only are the books poorly written, I think it is because of the hypocrisy. Many people enjoy Meyer’s vampire books who otherwise castigate vampire literature because it is too sexy. Yet, they rationalize that Meyer’s books are somehow okay because 1) She is LDS, and 2) the vampires don’t ACTUALLY HAVE SEX until they are married, therefore it must be okay to be a voyeur into their sex lives. It’s the stereotypical that-is-evil-but-not-this-because-I-like-it/it’s-only-a-little-anyways/not-as-bad-as-my-neighbor religious tendency. |
For another example of what I mean: Although I have carefully refrained from being too vocal about Meyer’s books, and have not directly attacked anyone who likes them, this one of the issues I have with the “phenomenon”. I feel that Meyer’s “abstinence” is a thinly veiled precursor to pornography. It seems to romanticize abstinence itself into something hypersexual, rather than presenting it as the hard work and mature decision it is. If it were presented as a romance novel rather than youth literature, it would be more honest. |
SilverRain, Do you think that: It’s the stereotypical… …not-as-bad-as-my-neighbor religious tendency. applies to your comments? :) |
DKL, by “flavor of the month” I meant a work of art/entertainment that suddenly enjoys popularity far out of proportion to their relative quality. And that’s not a slam against Meyer or Rowling or the Beatles or whoever your example might be — even if the work in question is better than average, it’s not THAT much better than average that it earns the obsessiveness of its adherents by virtue of its quality alone. Twilight became popular in large part because people who were ready to be obsessive about something (some of them having just finished the Harry Potter series and needing something else to fill the gap) hit on it, and spread it virally through their social network of similarly-inclined-to-be-obsessive friends until it hit critical mass, and the growing popularity of the book became the story. How did I first hear about the book? Through the repeated mentions of it on blogs in in other media, remarking on how popular it was. |
“I feel that Meyer’s “abstinence†is a thinly veiled precursor to pornography.” That’s exactly the kind of overreaction that is the problem. It’s one thing not to like the books, but to get sanctimonious about them and compare them to pornography is simply wrong. It’s a distorted view that is completely out of touch with reality. These books are in fact romances, even obsessive romances, no question about it. They are also about teenagers who don’t have sex. Is it possible to write a book about that subject without it being a “precursor to pornography?” What about these books could possibly merit that description? |
I attack it because it’s wildly popular yet poorly written and will be forgotten like the New Kids on the Block within a few years. |
The concern within my group of friends is not that Stephanie Meyers is LDS, or that the book is poorly written, but that the books are trashy romance novels with sex replaced by fangs and a main character who is a bland, obsessive, blank slate that is a bad example for young women learning how to form romantic relationships. There is enough there to be cautious of Twilight without mentioning Meyers’ religion. My only criticism that comes through Meyers’ Mormon connection is that the books suddenly become painfully obvious as the workings of a terribly troubled BYU freshman mind. An honor code respecting stalker who finds a sickening obsession with a lack of (fanged) penetration terribly exciting. |
aRJ—No, because I’m not feeling like I’m better than my neighbor just because I have issues with Meyer’s books. MCQ—Actually, it’s not. I believe that romance novels are girl-porn. I’m not alone in that opinion, which you may not agree with, but is a well-thought-out opinion, regardless. Using words like “sanctimonious” and “overreaction” to try to discount the opinion does nothing to undercut its validity, except perhaps in the eyes of those who agree with you. Many books have been written with or about sex that are not pornographic. What makes sex discussion into pornography is the attitudes it portrays about sex. Pornography twists sex into being about control and abandon of control, rather than being about giving. If that does not describe Stephanie Meyer’s vapid-female, wild-with-abstinence, breaking-the-bed, bruises depiction of sex, I don’t know what does. As I’ve already said, I would have better opinions about Meyer’s work if the spade was called a spade, rather than being portrayed as a rose. |
SilverRain: linking to those articles does nothing to help your argument when those articles are talking about sexually explicit romance novels. As you should know, Meyer’s novels are not sexually explicit. Yes, when the characters finally get married, the sex is described as breaking the bed and resulting in bruises, but that is not “explicit” either. It’s popular to describe the Bella character as “vapid” and that may be a reason not to like the character or the books, but it has zero to do with whether the books are pornography. Pornography is not about “control and abandon of control” as you say. It’s about sexual arousal. The goal of pornography is to sexually arouse its consumers. That’s what makes it pornography and that’s what separates it from literature. Nothing that you said about Twilight has anything to do with arousal. |
Wait. Sex described as breaking the bed does not fall into that category? I think SilverRain is right to a certain degree. For some women, it’s feminine porn- Twilight has appealed to and aroused females in a similar way that explicit pornography does for men. Of course, for others, it is light reading. |
“I haven’t read it, and I probably won’t.” As someone who has read the first book, and a few chapters of the second,I have to disagree with the pornography dismissal. Your definition of pornography is very close to Twilight’s descriptions of Edward and Bella. They very much could create an arousal for young teenage minds – or older ones for that matter. She is the girl next door and he is the chiseled manhood. My own criticism while reading the book was how easily they both put themselves in sexually compromising positions. Often outside of school they were all alone, including in her bedroom. I never considered Edward a “stalker” because Bella WANTS him to be her stalker. To be fair SHE stalks him just as much, even if at first only in her mind. Maybe for critics that isn’t enough to ignore the label. Yet, the attraction and flirting with giving in to lust is always present. My criticism of the critics is the idea that Twilight is somehow unique or uniquely badly written. This is a romance book in the tradition of romance books. I dare anyone to pick up a romance book written for adults or younger readers and find the differences. There are even vampire romances that can be found before this book was written. Chances are the major difference is when the characters consummate their love. They often do it before rather than after the marriage, and the man’s behavior is often stalker-like. What Twilight has done is allow romance novels to be exposed to the sun of literary day. Those not familiar with the genre are shocked by its motifs presented in a popular book. For some the anti-feminism of romance novels has been made bare for all the world to see; and the feminists who read them are ashamed. The puritans who scoff them are disgusted. The literary geeks who look down at low-brow populist literature are scrambling to distance themselves (like they did at first with Harry Potter). Because of the raw nature of the work, the reactions themselves are as much visceral as intellectual. It is not my kind of books. I don’t like romances. Her writing is less than stellar. The reason I defend it is because of what I see as most critic’s latent bigotry and hypocrisy. Even Stephen King, who was scorned before he was embraced and said that the amount of money someone earned off a work indicated their talent, mocks and hates the series. The Twilight series is no longer a work of literature, but a cultural battleground. It is for this reason that I think the louder the critics scream the more they are helping it become what they fear; relevant beyond the current flavor-of-the-month. |
Anything that gets young people reading works for me. It’s only a step away from Jane Eyre. Now THERE’s sexual tension for you! |
I’ve read Meyers’ 5 novels and thought they were enjoyable. While I do understand why someone might be tempted to call it “porn,” using that particular word makes for more heat than light in this case. Just ask MCQ! ;-) The books are not sexually explicit. However, sex is a major focus of the novels, as is common for vampire literature. Personally, I think the bloodletting aspect of vampire legends is something of a sexual metaphor (rapacious male punctures and consumes virgin = “damaged goods” model of human sexuality). In the Twilight books there is a kind of dual abstinence at play: no drinky-drinky, no touchy-touchy. Nevertheless, the characters get as close to the line as they can; there is plenty of semi-clothed make-out, which––for Edward––is both the sexual and gastronomic equivalent of telling a starving man, “Here, have some muffins. Feel free to lick them, but no eating!” I was reminded of this aspect of the novels while reading an article by Mormon author and comedienne, Elna Baker:
It actually reminds me of how Tom Lehrer described the Harvard Math Department: “It was a hotbed of celibacy.” In any case, I think that the books are fairly entertaining, and it definitely appears that they strike a chord for their target audience. As far as their artistic merit is concerned––and I am no literary critic––I will say, I was surprised when I read Meyers’ The Host, and then read the last book in the Twilight series. The Host was a step up stylistically (imo), so it was rather jarring to return to Breaking Dawn. I have since wondered if what I found lacking in the writing of the Twilight books had less to do with Meyers, and more to do with the “voice” of her heroine. |
“Sex described as breaking the bed does not fall into that category?” No. Not unless the sex is explicitly described. “Twilight has appealed to and aroused females in a similar way that explicit pornography does for men.” If that were true, then these females could be sexually aroused by almost anything. Of course it “appeals” to them. Is something “female pornography” just because it appeals to women? No. Only if it sexually arouses them. No one I know is getting sexually aroused by reading these books. They find them entertaining, but not sexually arousing. “She is the girl next door and he is the chiseled manhood.” So what, Jettboy? Are you saying that people are getting sexually aroused by the descriptions of the characters? “My own criticism while reading the book was how easily they both put themselves in sexually compromising positions. Often outside of school they were all alone, including in her bedroom. I never considered Edward a “stalker†because Bella WANTS him to be her stalker. To be fair SHE stalks him just as much, even if at first only in her mind. Maybe for critics that isn’t enough to ignore the label. Yet, the attraction and flirting with giving in to lust is always present.” If you don’t want to read books where young people are obsessed with each other and “flirt with giving in to lust” then that’s fine, don’t read them. I don’t read romance novels either. But none of that makes these books pornography. Throwing that label around is just wrong. It’s unfair to Meyer and her fans and it’s trivializing the real problem of pornography. There is such a thing as pornography. That word actually means something. Pornography is dangerous and evil. But Twilight is not pornography. If you think it is, you don’t know what you’re talking about. |
Interesting that you bring up Elna Baker, LdG. That’s an example of someone testing the line in real life, then telling about that experience. You may not agree with her actions, but her conclusions are right on. That’s a whole different category, however, from fiction. Whatever reservations anyone may have about the actions of the Twilight characters, they are, in fact, fictional. That means: not real. And as an author, Meyer’s actions in telling their story is not the same thing as advocating that anyone copy their behavior. I know that you know all this LdG, but sometimes I feel that critics of Twilight don’t know it. Maybe they should repeat “it’s fiction, not reality” over and over to themselves before reading these books. We read stories and watch movies all the time where characters engage in behavior that we would never, in a mllion years, do ourselves. Yet no one is calling Aladdin pornography because the main characters take an unchaperoned magic carpet ride all over the world in the middle of the night. |
“Pornography is not about “control and abandon of control†as you say. It’s about sexual arousal. The goal of pornography is to sexually arouse its consumers.” So you truly want me to buy the line that Twilight fans drooling and raving over Edward and Jacob are not sexually aroused? You’re telling me that the people wanting Taylor Lautner to sign their underwear have no arousal whatsoever? The claim that “the sex [must be] explicitly described” in order to qualify as porn, which to use your definition, is that which “sexually arouse[s] its consumers” is clearly not a valid argument. There are many implicit things which can arouse. In fact, implicit sex is often far more arousing than explicit sex. “If you think [otherwise], you don’t know what you’re talking about.” “This is a romance book in the tradition of romance books.” And that is the bulk of my point as to why a person might validly criticize Meyer’s writing. They are romance novels, and should not be marketed as clean-sex Youth Fiction. By making excuses, people are rationalizing. Unfortunately, Meyer’s has benefited greatly by seeming like a safe source for porn, though it may not be the hardest porn extant. |
“In fact, implicit sex is often far more arousing than explicit sex.” Is that what they call it these days when someone’s spouse “has a headache”? “Sorry, dear. I’m just too tired. Let’s don’t and say we did.” |
Implicit sex may arouse some people sometimes, silverrain, but it ain’t porn. Pornography has a definition. Implicit anything does not fall within it. That’s not a rationalization, it’s a fact. You can implicitly talk about whatever you want in a book and it’s not porn. You can argue that it’s bad literature, or silly romantic claptrap or whatever you want, but you can’t say it’s porn, any more than you can say it’s iambic pentameter. Your argument about Taylor Lautner is even worse. We are talking about the books here, silverrain. Taylor Lautner is not in the books. He’s an actor. (Here again, you seem to have trouble differentiating fiction from reality.) But let’s say Taylor does matter. Are you saying that because some women are aroused by his appearance that he, himself is pornography? Some women are certainly excited by his appearance and are, yes, asking him to sign their underwear, etc., even when he’s fully dressed. So, based on your argument, Taylor cannot walk down the street without creating pornography. That’s a great argument Siverrain. It has been applied to women in the past too. The problem is, it’s flat wrong and discriminatory. |
Time is on Stephenie’s side, since she’s written not a (first-novel!) faux-horror young-adult faux horror story and chaste romance, but has created a popular landmark in the cultural landscape. Yet, I live across from Greenwich Village (and the rest of Manhattan), here in New Jersey, and can hear Ella Taylor, a movie reviewer for the Village Voice‘s, sniffing from here — in chorus with the cries of pain and anguish coming from salons across America, which almost drowns out the purrs and sighs coming from many teenage girls’ bed chambers as well as ladies clubs gathered in house parlors. Below is the lede from Taylor’s review of the movie New Moon.
Oh! — my! — gosh! — such folks as Taylor seem to me to be Twihards in reverse. For myself, I’d rather hang out with people excited about light fare than overly agitated by it; but, as for everybody else’s take, that’s just my taste. |
MCQ—I disagree with you on the nature of pornography, the definition of which does not require explicit description of sex. It is my opinion based on evidence that it is not primarily Lautner’s appearance which turns women on, but his depiction of a character written in the books, and he is merely a physical focus. I believe the movie is successful because the books were successful, and that the books were successful because Meyer succeeded in masking a romance novel with a veneer of respectability. As a romance novel, Meyer’s writing is on par. As youth literature, it is decidedly not. The bottom line is that she is successful, and that is great for her. People who enjoy her work are free to enjoy them if they wish. I just find it unfortunate that they have convinced themselves that her books are anything but romance novels. It would be nice if you made a habit of disagreeing by supporting the strength of your arguments instead of resorting to personal slurs. It would make for a much more interesting discussion. |
Webster’s is one of the only definitions that does not use the words “sexually explicit” in the primary definition. Most do: 1. Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal. “It is my opinion based on evidence that it is not primarily Lautner’s appearance which turns women on, but his depiction of a character written in the books, and he is merely a physical focus.” LOL! That is hilarious, Silverrain. Nice try. “The bottom line is that she is successful, and that is great for her. People who enjoy her work are free to enjoy them if they wish. I just find it unfortunate that they have convinced themselves that her books are anything but romance novels.” You are the one who said it was more than romance novels. You said it was porn. If you are now saying that it’s only romance novels, we have no disagreement. Sorry if you thought I was making “personal slurs.” That was not my intent, nor do I believe I did that, but I apologize if that was the case. |
I totally agree. I just wrote this post (but not as well) earlier this month. |
SilverRain, you’re joking, right? MCQ is spot-on in this thread. To say he has resorted to personal slurs is absurd. As with Twilight, your response to MCQ is an overreaction. Pornography, seriously? Have you read these books or are you slinging about ignorant accusations? If you read them and they felt like porn to you, I don’t think that is a reflection on the books. Some people are sexually excited by shoes, that doesn’t make them pornography (not even really, really sexy shoes are porn). |
MCQ—Thank you. I generally enjoy “discussing” differences of opinion with you, I just don’t appreciate comments such as “you seem to have trouble differentiating fiction from reality,” particularly when it is those who confuse the actor with the character who labor under that difficulty. I see where we differ. I think of romance novels as a form of pornography. Certainly not extreme or even typically discussed porn, but porn nonetheless, because they are written with the intent of sexually arousing, and as most porn, they romanticize control and lack thereof as sexually desirable. skl—On the contrary. There are two factors to porn: intent of creation, and the reaction of the viewer. For the former, I believe from reading the books that Stephenie Meyer wrote the books with the intent, conscious or not, to fashion abstinence into something sexually exciting. I don’t think that was her entire intent in writing the books, but it is certainly a part of it. For the latter, if shoes turn a person on, then shoe catalogs are pornography for that person. I believe that many (not all) Twilight fans (specifically those who rave and get super defensive about any criticism) like the books because they formed a very personal emotional/sexual connection to them. My criticism comes in when those fans who fall into that category rationalize it by saying that the books are good literature, or at least they get people reading, or at least Meyer is LDS. Again, they are spades, not roses. |
I don’t think Stephanie Meyer intended her story to be overly stimulating and sexually appealing, though I’m sure she intended it to be somewhat so. And what is the product of her story? Women carried away in the fantasy of men entering their bedroom at night to woo them just to the limits of morality. Not to mention that these men are perfect specimens physically, and conflicted morally. To me, that is an appeal to sexuality, especially in the feminine sense. Alas, I am a man and can only venture an opinion on the matter. MCQ, I think you are commenting from a male perspective of sexuality and sexual arousal. Women do not need explicit description- they generally don’t like it, in fact. Hence the success of the romance novel, mostly among women. |
I think I may be a little defensive on this issue because my 13 yr old daughter is an extremely intense twilight fan. Extremely. Intense. We went back and forth about it when she first started reading the books with her friends and we were concerned at how into these books they became. After reading parts of all the books and discussing them with her in detail (and then seeing each of the movies with her) I am convinced that her attraction to the books is not sexual. I have no knowledge whatsoever about Meyer’s intent in writing the books. From what I understand, she was inspired to write the first part of the story and just wanted to keep writing to see where it went. I believe she wrote the story based on what she would want to read. The fact that Bella is abstinent is because Meyer wanted the character to fit her values. The fact that this abstinence involves sexual attraction is simply required by the story. It’s a story about obsessive love. Two people who believe they were meant to be together. They are very sexually attracted to each other and yet remain sexually abstinent despite this strong attraction. This is where I’m frustrated by the criticism: As members of the Church, shouldn’t we celebrate stories and artwork (especially by other members) that depict people who remain sexually abstinent until marriage? Isn’t that what we want? At the the very least, shouldn’t we refrain from condemning it as porn, especially when there is such an enormous avalanche of actual honest to goodness porn out there to condemn? I feel like we must answer those questions in the affirmative, even if (like me) you don’t much like the silly romance these books depict. Silverrain: I hope you know that I like you, even when I disagree with you. Sometimes especially then. nasamomdele: “Women do not need explicit description- they generally don’t like it, in fact. Hence the success of the romance novel, mostly among women.” Agreed. But that still doesn’t make it porn. Pornography is a loaded term. I have a real problem seeing it directed at material my 13 yr old daughter loves, and that I have (however reservedly) approved. |
Silverrain, Stephanie Meyer didn’t fashion abstinence into something sexually exciting. Being a celibate teenager is fraught with sexual tension. No revelation there. If your argument is that any mention of that reality should be avoided in literature, I guess we will just have to disagree. As with the shoe catalog, the fact that someone may find the Twilight series erotic doesn’t mean there is something inherently or intentionally erotic in the material. Extreme emotive responses to this series aren’t necessarily the fault of the text or the author. Perhaps you judge too harshly and seriously the Twihards? I don’t know of anyone who has formed an “emotional/sexual” connection to these books. But I know people who really enjoyed them, are willing to defend them and are unapologetic about their love for the work – and that is OK. There is nothing wrong with them for liking these books. |
Yes, I agree with this. However, much of the publicity the books get highlights the fact that the characters practice abstinence––this is a factor, I suspect, contributing to their wide approval among parents (particularly of the LDS persuasion). I am not suggesting that this is somehow Stephenie Meyers’ fault; she was writing a story, not “promise ring” propaganda. (BTW, you must visit that link!) Still, the fact that Edward and Bella are the heroes, combined with the wholesome publicity the books get regarding the celibacy of their main characters, makes it possible (likely, even) that a lot of young readers will see something there as worthy of emulation. Now, one could make the same argument about Harry Potter, claiming it encourages children to experiment in the occult––in fact, many evangelical protestants have said precisely that. Nevertheless, there is one major difference here: people don’t grow up to be wizards (or vampires, for that matter), but most of them do grow up to be capable of having sex. Waving a stick and saying “alohomora” won’t open doors or bank vaults, but hot-an’-heavy, semi-clothed make-out frequently leads to more serious kinds of sexual expression. That being said, I did like the stories (even if Meyers’ style isn’t my favorite). I personally don’t have issues with the content of the books, but one hopes that parents whose kids are Twilight fans will discuss some of these issues with them––especially for elementary/middle school-aged children––as no doubt you already have, MCQ. |
Yeah, that is a danger that we talk about LdG, and not just because of the books. |
skl—”the fact that someone may find the Twilight series erotic doesn’t mean there is something inherently or intentionally erotic in the material.” True, my point is that I believe that both apply to Twilight. Although she may not have realized she was doing it, and I don’t believe it was her main intention, after reading the books, I feel that she certainly intended to engage readers emotionally into (what she probably doesn’t even realize) is an unhealthy sexual relationship. Although I really don’t believe sex should be avoided as a topic of teenage conversation, I believe the discussion can encourage, nurture, and enhance purity of thought and action, and there are ways that encourage, nurture, and enhance sexual thoughts and action before it is time to do so. Meyer’s books, in my opinion, do not fall into the first category. I’m not trying to say there is anything wrong with those who like the books. I’m trying to say that there is valid criticism and concern in regards to those books. The original post downplayed thei impact. I feel that mindset is dangerous, particularly when not tempered with the types of conversation LdG mentions. The books should not be excused merely because the author is LDS. If anything, sheep ought to be observed more closely when there is a potential for wolves dressing up as sheep. MCQ—Thank you! I like you, too. But, while I’m not a rabid anti-Meyers, my concern is exactly this: “As members of the Church, shouldn’t we celebrate stories and artwork (especially by other members) that depict people who remain sexually abstinent until marriage? Isn’t that what we want?” I think that we certainly should celebrate stories and artwork that depict people who remain abstinent in an uplifting, inspiring, and divine way. I think it matters very much how abstinence is depicted, and I have issues with Meyer’s methods precisely because her sexually charged writing is excused. To be more specific, it is not exactly her writing I have issues with (since authors like her are quite common), it is that people seem to believe that her writing is pure and good. To me, it seems to be truth mingled with error in a very, very dangerous way. Satan’s best work is done when his philosophies are made to look virtuous. If all of his temptations were 2×4′s across the face, not many would fall. I can see why it would be difficult for you to accept my point in light of your daughter’s liking of the series. For what it is worth, I don’t think every Meyer fan is sexually turned on by her books. I do think many are, and I think that those books walk a very thin line. I am coming from a perspective that might be meaningful to you in your circumstances, so I’ll try to explain without going into too much detail. When I was about your daughter’s age, I had access to Harlequin romances, the very, very mild ones. I read them, too, with my parent’s permission. As a voracious reader, I devoured every book I could get my hands on. They were not particularly explicit. In fact, they were very much on par with Meyer’s writing. However, now with my 20/20 adult hindsight, I can see how reading those books subtly warped my approach to and expectations of love and sex. In part because of the preconceptions of love I gained from those books, I have spent years in a miserable marriage. I wish with all my heart I had never read those books. Now, with God’s grace, I am stripping out my unhealthy notions of love and sex, and replacing them with (I hope) a more divine perspective that will (again, hopefully) allow Him to someday lead me to a true, eternal marriage in every sense of the word. I can’t change my past, only allow the Atonement to heal me. But I can certainly speak up about what I have learned. |
“I think that we certainly should celebrate stories and artwork that depict people who remain abstinent in an uplifting, inspiring, and divine way.” Problem is, if we wait until then we’ll be celebrating…never. We are talking about pop culture here. Books and movies that appeal to large numbers of people. Uplifting, inspiring and divine would be nice, but we really are kidding ourselves if we think we’re going to find that in popular entertainment. I’m ha “To be more specific, it is not exactly her writing I have issues with (since authors like her are quite common), it is that people seem to believe that her writing is pure and good. To me, it seems to be truth mingled with error in a very, very dangerous way.” I don’t think anyone believes her writing to be pure and good. At best, it’s entertaining. It’s not aiming for truth or error. It’s not scripture. It’s not trying to teach eternal verities, it’s trying to be entertaining to teens, and it has been very successful in doing that. Let’s just let it be what it is. Silverain, I’m very very sorry about the fact that you have had a difficult time in your marriage and wish you the best for your future. Knowing what I know about marriages and people, I suspect there are a lot of factors involved in making any marriage good or bad. I hope you find what you are looking for and end up with a wonderful marriage. Thanks for this discussion. |
Nice post, DKL. (And w/re “Other Bridget’s” post #59: You rock: Great post on your blog! –> http://myadventuresintucson.blogspot.com/2009/12/in-defense-of-twilight.html ) |
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