22 Comments | leave a comment | RSS 2.0 for this post | trackback |
There’s an error on the page and I couldn’t bring up the thing that says “more.” Will somebody fix that? |
Very, very well spoken. |
I agree 100%… as long as you are trying to forgive, I think it is enough. :) |
I found CS Lewis’s attitude on forgiveness to be helpful to me. In ‘Mere Christianity’, his compilation of his radio addresses on religious topics, he was asked by British radio listeners after WWII how a Christian was supposed to deal with their feelings towards the Nazis. Did Christ expect them to pretend nothing happened? Where they supposed to invite them into their homes? How far does this forgiveness stuff go? How is it even possible to forgive such horror? CS Lewis’s response has changed my understanding of forgiveness completely. He said that to forgive does not mean inviting the Nazi’s into your home. It does not mean even going to lunch with them. We do not need to keep subjecting ourselves to pain in the name of forgiveness. All that Christ requires is that we “Wish them well”. We do not need to judge them, because God will do that. We need to wish the very best for them God has in store for them. If that means they will be cast into Outer Darkness in the next life, that is God’s perogative. We don’t need to wish that for them. We need to work on detaching ourselves from their punishment and know that God will do the very best action. That idea, of wishing someone well, has freed me to stop thinking of false obligations to another. |
Thanks Annegb |
And it can mean not actively seeking revenge. Like not telling the girl who dated my boyfriend senior year that I’m going to pee on her grave. Just letting it go. |
My favorite definition (can’t remember from what book) is the idea that “forgiveness means giving up my right to hurt [you] the way [you] hurt me”. So often, when someone hurts or offends or abuses us, we want the perpetrator to really understand what they did to us and we have a desire to hurt them in the same way in the hopes that they’ll understand our hurt. But, when we can let go of that desire, then I think that’s when we know we’ve forgiven that person. Doesn’t mean we have to have a relationship with them or trust them or associate with them, but just don’t desire to have them hurt as we did/do. |
From LDS it is clear that we are to “forgive all men”, what is not clear is the timing of forgiveness. There are at three points in time when one can forgive. 1) Immediately upon receipt of harm without knowing the harmer’s identity (“I forgive whomever caused this injustice”). 2) After learning the harmer’s identity (“I forgive ed42″) and 3) After the harmer has begun the repentance process (including restitution) and has pleaded for forgiveness (“Ed42 has bought me a new bicycle after he stoled my old one and has asked for forgiveness”). [Note: I don't accept asking for forgiveness as valid unless a restitution attempt has been made]. When does “forgive all men” apply? |
Wonderful thoughts on forgiveness. The Lord can require no more of us than what we can give. Once we realize that our powers are limited and turn to God with full purpose of heart then we’ll find God’s power supplementing our own (tender mercies). One of the reason I participate in the Bloggernacle is to testify by experience (not by hope or faith) that through the Doctrine of Christ each of us can experience a dimension of atonement that is so powerful that we are changed (born again, mighty) and become friends of God (son & daughters). This doesn’t mean we’re complete, it means we have access to the Lord in ways we didn’t have before (fire and the Holy Ghost). |
I found it hard to forgive because I was taught a false meaning of forgiveness. I had been taught that forgiveness was akin to absolving the offender. I had been taught (wrongly) that to forgive someone meant that you had to either 1) pretend the offense never happened, or 2) pretend that the offense wasn’t harmful. Both of those ideas of what forgiveness is are very poisonous to the offended/hurt party. I’ve since learned that forgiveness is turning the offender and the offense over to Christ, and accepting Christ’s atonement as having done 2 things: 1) paying the price of the offense on the part of the offender, and 2) paying to heal the wound on the part of the offended party. Forgiveness is not pretending anything, such as “it didn’t hurt” or “it doesn’t matter” or “it didn’t happen.” Forgiveness is acknowledging “Christ paid for that offense” and thereby Christ has the right to judge the offender and either forgive or punish the offender. Forgiveness also encompasses the victim calling upon Christ’s atonement for healing from whatever wounds were caused by the offense/sin. Forgiveness in the sense that I’m describing doesn’t depend on whether or not the offender/sinner repents or not. That is because Christ paid the price (both for the sinner, and the healing of the victim) regardless of whether the sinner repents or not. I had to realize this “new” (to me) definition of forgiveness in order to get over the lifelong wounds that I had suffered at the hands of people who had hurt me. One of the worst things in my life was my mother’s mantra of “It’s okay” whenever I was hurt (and even abused) by someone else. It was like she was saying it was okay for other people to hurt me. It was as if she was promoting perpetual victimhood. It wasn’t until I was in my late 40′s that I realized she was wallowing in her own perpetual victimhood as a coping mechanism for the abuse she suffered when she was young. She was living in her own false definition of forgiveness, and passed it on to me. The emotional and spiritual wounds from the severest abuse in this life can’t be healed in this life. It will take until the resurrection to make those hurts go away. But to the degree that we can “apply” the atonement, we can be healed in this life, and we can forgive in this life. I’ve tasted what it’s like to have the Light of Christ completely withdraw for just a few seconds at a time. (D&C 19:20) I imagine it is what outer darkness or “Hell” must be like, to be totally outside of any spiritual radiation that comes from God and Christ. If you ever feel like “Someone must PAY!”, then please realize that Jesus DID pay. And for those who don’t or won’t repent, it won’t take long in that temporary version of outer darkness that we call ‘Hell’ for them to actually pay the price through suffering of their own. |
What profound insightful comments. Thank you, guys. There are people in the world who can forgive very easily; I’d consider this a gift like singing or leadership, etc. I know some people like that. Bookslinger, my mom was a lot like yours and I believe it only fed my outrage. Ed, I think ultimately we’ll all see things from the point of view that Jared and Bookslinger speak about and will, indeed forgive all men. Also, I believe that we will all have our life review with the Savior and we will experience the pain our unrepented sins have caused others and then be truly and deeply sorry. Everybody who ever lived will go through this. I take a delight in knowing this and so will probably have to repent of enjoying this small thought of revenge. But if this is true—and I think it is—we’ll all be sorry for our sins. And hence “earn” forgiveness based on Christ’s ultimate atonement. The book “The Peacegiver” is a very good exploration of forgiveness. I’ve never finished it because I’m still thinking about the part I read. Elder Oaks has a good article in this month’s Ensign about repentance. It’s a little mind blowing because he says we have to suffer some pain to repent, we can’t just say sorry and abandon sin. I’m not sure I agree, but I’ve only read it twice. I’m still absorbing it and considering it. |
Saw a quotation posted at my health club of all places. Can’t remember to whom it was attributed but it went, “Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.” That quote has inspired a lot of thought on my part. I’m not sure if I agree or not. I agree with ed42 that that for truly scarring offenses forgiveness is not required until an effort toward restitution has been made. |
Wow. |
If that’s so, then you’re talking more about absolution or “cancelation of sin” (which only Christ can do) than you are about one human forgiving another. I implied it earlier, but I failed to state it explicitly: One human forgiving another does not absolve the offender or cancel the sin. The Lord will not withhold justice, merely because the victim forgives, if the offender fails to repent to the extent that he can and that the Lord expects. The scriptures back this up where the prophets have written “The Lord judge between thee and me.” IE, the prophets say to turn the judgement over to the Lord. It is possible, and I think Christ requires it, for us to forgive others before Christ absolves or “cancels” the sin on the part of the offender. Under the “turning it over to Christ” definition, forgiveness can happen as soon the offense is committed. For a good treatise on how victims can view offenses, and “let them go” and not let them eat at you, see “The Enchiridion” by Epictetus. http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html and another translation here: http://www.ptypes.com/enchiridion.html If you come across a passage that you don’t understand, or don’t see the logic behind, check out the other translation. Using the two together on a difficult passage fleshes out the author’s intent better. Epictetus was not a Christian, but there is a lot of overlap between the Stoic philosophy that he espoused and Christianity. In fact, I’d recommend everyone who has unhealed wounds caused by the sins of others to read Epictetus’ Enchiridion. There’s a lot of good stuff in there about how to let go of things we don’t have any control over. Epictetus was able to put the concept of Christian forgiveness into language I could finally understand. |
As a volunteer who works with depressive, traumatized, and damaged individuals, I openly encourage your take on forgiveness. It is admittedly a major leap of faith to give yourself permission to put an incident where you have been wronged behind you, let the Lord exercise His perfect judgment, and move on. To condone or excuse inappropriate or illegal behavior will only make things worse. |
But I also think you have to allow yourself to hate too. For awhile. Putting too much pressure on yourself, at first, to forgive dishonors your suffering and, I believe, is psychologically damaging. It takes time. And I would never NEVER tell another person to forgive. |
Annegb: if you read Epictetus’ Enchiridion, please lemme know what you think of it. |
You’ve mentioned that book before, but I keep forgetting. I’ll have the library order it for me. I do believe the things you wrote about but I think it’s a process not an event. |
One thing that might be helpful is to realize that when the Lord says that “vengeance is mine” – He means it. By that, I mean justice and vengeance are exact sciences – and we as human beings are very ill-equipped to make them happen. The scriptures say that we should pursue justice (that’s what the actual Hebrew says) – and there is emphasis on pursuit – sort of implying that you might pursue justice but never actually attain it. But vengeance (and I don’t know what the Hebrew word for vengeance is – one more thing to look up), as I understand it, is not delegated into human hands. Sometimes, too often really, we try to make vengeance happen. But we never will get it right. I suppose, in a twisted sense, we could get comfort from the idea of a God who can wreak vengeance in the most exact manner. If we think someone truly deserves to suffer in an extreme way, and we accept the truth that God will take care of this sort of thing if it truly applies to someone, then we might actually sleep better at night knowing/believing that is the case. I suspect the biggest problem we would have with God’s vengeance is the timing of it all. I suspect we would want front row seats, a large Sprite and popcorn as we observe the comeuppance. It likely would not work out that way. And if that is the attitude we have, we ourselves are in trouble. |
I can testify that true forgiveness is liberating. Like others have said, it’s not letting in, it’s letting go. If the offending party wants back in your life, even if they actually did fully repent in every sense of the word, you do not have to let them back in order to forgive. I also find it comforting when I think about all the people I’ve hurt and things I’ve done wrong, that God will give me exactly what I deserve: no less . . . and no more. |
Annegb: The Enchiridion of Epictetus is a very short work. You can go to either of those links I provided and just print it out in maybe 20 pages. Another link to the Enchiridion, in combination with another work of Epictetus Silver: I like your “not letting in, [but] letting go” couplet. Danithew/Silver: You both bring up the related topic of “With what measure ye mete, it shall be meted unto you.” However we judge others, the same yardstick will be used to judge ourselves. It wasn’t until I had the Light of Christ withdraw from me for a bit and experience that temporary “hell” that I really started to be a bit more charitable towards those who had deeply offended me. I finally realized what they were going to suffer if they didn’t repent either. One of my lessons is that that anquish (as described in D&C Section 19) quickly causes one to have an attitude adjustement. And I realized that the “Hell” that many of us mortals may have to endure through the end of the Millennium (up to the point described in Revelation where “death and hell give up their dead”) is sufficiently long enough for all sinners to have suffered and paid for their sins. As I understand it, “Hell” is a temporary version or edition of Outer Darkness. Only Satan and those spirits who rebelled with him in the pre-mortal existence, and the sons of perdition, will remain in Outer Darkness past the end-point of the Millennium. |
Bookslinger, I ran off what you recommended, glanced at it and now I’m going to take some time and study it. I’ll get back to you. :) |