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It would have been ideal if the federal government had not abdicated its responsibility to seriously police the borders. I don’t think it requires a wall, that would be expensive, time consuming, defeatable, and sending a terrible message. But I think we could do more to make it more difficult for people to come here. But they will always come. Maybe the US could adopt a sponsorship program. Here a foreigner (or illegal resident) could follow a process which demonstrates they would be a net benefit to society. First you’d need a sponsor, a legal resident who can vouch for you, is legally liable for you, and must be able to help pay your bills. Perhaps a bond for each person would have to be put up…like $1000 per person. I completely agree that too often we ignore the human impact. Unfortunately, this is what governments do. When we build nuclear weapons, or conventional weapons, we ignore the human impact. When we regulator C02, we ignore the human impact, when we require lighter production vehicles, we ignore the human impact, when we install traffic camera, we ignore the human impact. We’re pretty good at ignoring human impact. |
A fine attempt, Dan. Unfortunately, the bloggernacle lacks the maturity to discuss this topic on a rational level. If you don’t believe me, stand by. |
Chris (1), I agree with much of what you said, although I would like to see a wall built; most credible analysis calls the “virtual fence” a complete failure. That said, most of the illegal activity is flowing through legitimate points of entry. |
I personally think the church is playing “realpolitic” with immigration. After 50-75 years of expansion in Latin America I cannot imagine the LDS church taking a stand against illegal immigration. It would shake our efforts to the core south of the border and amongst Latino’s in the US. We would be the only church in the US to risk alienating Latino’s. Talk about blowback…. Personally I am in favor of legal immigration and very hostile to illegal immigration. I welcome any man woman of child who waits their turn and does it right. I am even in favor of increased legal immigration. Illegal immigrants I think are essentially stealing. I also support the DREAM act. Kids should not be punished for parents decisions. A three year old goes where his parents take him. |
I think comparing the human impact of traffic cameras to the human impact of reactionary immigration reform already shows that at least some of the bloggernacle lacks the ability to discuss this on a rational level. |
I also wanted to say that the American dream involves immigration and then assimilation. I am proud that so many want to come to the US and become productive members of society. At one point my people also got off the boat. Eventually as they assimilated they became Americans. I think illegal immigration as opposed to legal immigration thwarts to a certain degree the assimilation process because is so uncontrolled and has such a element of lawlessness to it. |
“…shows that at least some of the bloggernacle lacks the ability to discuss this on a rational level.” Of course, of course. It’s only those who disagree with one’s own opinion who are irrational. That much goes without saying. |
Hey, I never said I was rational. |
Tim (5), I’m puzzled by the reference to traffic cameras. Did that come up in another discussion? |
Dan, |
Heard an idea a few weeks back on the radio that I like. For all those currently in the US illegally, give them a work permit without citizenship. Citizenship would require individuals to return to their home countries and apply. Individuals would not be eligible to apply until they had lived outside the US for a sustained period. I think this solution to be quite reasonable and balances justice and mercy. |
PaulM (11), That might address some parts of the problem, but it doesn’t address the strain on local public institutions. Unfortunately, there are a lot of issues beyond the narrow question of status and process. |
If we view residence in the United States as a necessary condition for happiness and well-being, then keeping anyone out or sending anyone away from it would be a terrible thing to do. I get the idea that some of us view most other nations as pretty awful places. |
bbell, I saw a headline recently, “Arizona Law Makes it a Crime to be an Illegal Immigrant.” At the same time, I think we need to make it easier to get in to the country legally. As for those already here, I like Chris’s idea of a sponsorship program. I think any illegal immigrant family who is a credit to our society would have no problem finding a ward member or two willing to attest to that fact and sponsor them. |
Dan (12), |
This is a very hot subject and is causing quite a dilemma for leaders of the church. There is a very good article on this subject in the SLT today looking at it from two opposing lds standpoints titled “Mormons on both sides in immigration controversy” see http://www.sltrib.com/ci_14986486?source=most_viewed There are already over 200 comments on this article showing how members are very much divided on this subject. take a look. You may be also interested in the following collection of articles on this subject under the heading “What is the policy of the church on Illegal Immigrants” found on http://studiesonzion.com/documents/dnc/Illegal_Immigrants_and_the_Law_of_the_Land.pdf here has never been such an issue where members of the church have generally have lacked confidence in their leaders. Why because there has been no clear policy on this issue that is understood and sustained by members of the church generally? The First Presidency have made no official statements on this issue for leaders and members to understand and sustain clearly setting out the reasons for their present policy. The reason for this is that they have allowed the situation to get out of hand with illegals becoming stake presidents, Bishops etc. The missionatry system also targets those in need like illegals and they make up many of the baptismal numbers of the church in the USA. D&C 58:21-22: “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land. Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet. |
“I understand that it would, but why should it alienate Latinos to remind them that we as a church believe in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” I always wince a little at this kind of thing and the D & C 58 references. Our church leadership was happy to disobey the law until they were either in prison or on the run over polygamy, and the bulk of the church’s property seized and forfeited. I think the Article of Faith and Section 58 were primarily meant to reassure our neighbors in those days that we weren’t seditious and were in fact loyal Americans. I agree with what the leadership did in those days, but if you look at what we’ve historically done, not what we’ve said, the picture is different from the rhetoric. The church’s current behavior—where one’s immigration status is irrelevant—seems well in keeping with that tradition. For example: One of my callings is as a regional transient and homeless welfare ‘manager,’ where we use the resources of the church to assist what turns out to be about 95% nonmembers, many of whom are in the USA illegally. I have been instructed not to ask about immigration status. In fact, the other fellow who shares the assignment with me speaks Spanish. That isn’t a coincidence. I also agree that a decent portion of the baptisms in my area are of people who are here illegally. The mission’s instruction is that it doesn’t make any difference. In a world where the church’s behavior most often tends to track conservative political behavior (Prop 8 anyone?), this is an area way out of sync with that impulse. In fact, not that this is determinative, but the NY Times in an article last year rated Utah as the most immigration friendly state in the union. I doubt that would be the case if the church had a more politically conservative view on it. |
John (13), We view America as being better than many other places to live because there are such long lines of people trying to get here, many of whom have heard from friends and relatives about how great America is. If I lived in one of our nightmarish border cities in Mexico, I would do everything I could to get across the border, legally or otherwise. Malcolm (16), It’s true- the Church has not made firm policy statements on this issue, but I’m eager to read the links you referenced and see if there are any statements I am not aware of. Based upon Elder Jensen’s 2008 assignment, I think we can infer that the Church’s position is that the integrity of the family and people’s temporal opportunities are weightier matters than the enforcement of laws that have the potential to ruin lives and break up families. |
Best post I’ve seen on this issue, Dan. |
President Nathan E Tanner First Counselor in the First Presidency General Conference Oct 1975 Abraham Lincoln once observed: “Bad laws, if they exist, should be repealed as soon as possible; still, while they continue in force, they should be religiously observed.” This is the attitude of the Church in regard to law observance. We agree with the author of the following statement: “In reality the man who defies or flouts the law is like the proverbial fool who saws away the plank on which he sits, and a disrespect or disregard for law is always the first sign of a disintegrating society. Respect for law is the most fundamental of all social virtues, for the alternative to the rule of law is that of violence and anarchy.” (Case and Comment, March/April issue, 1965, p. 20) There is no reason or justification for men to disregard or break the law or try to take it into their own hands. Christ gave us the great example of a law-abiding citizen when the Pharisees, trying to entangle him, as the scriptures say, asked him if it were lawful to give tribute money unto Caesar. After asking whose inscription was on the tribute money, and their acknowledgment that it was Caesar’s, he said: “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.” (Matt. 22:21.) It is the duty of citizens of any country to remember that they have individual responsibilities, and that they must operate within the law of the country in which they have chosen to live. End of Quote Elder L.Tom Perry General Conference Nov 1987 Jim you have written off D&C 58 as for “those days” now try two comments from GA’s. |
Yes, but what to do when God’s law and man’s law conflicts? Daniel of the Old Testament wasn’t about to stop praying because it was illegal. Helmut Huebener, an LDS teenager in Nazi Germany, wasn’t about to stop spreading the truth about Hitler because it was illegal. A mother who wants a better life for her children, or a young man who can’t find work in Mexico but wants to follow God’s commandments to work and not be idle, is, in my book, a bit like Daniel and Huebener, following a higher law than the laws of the country. |
Quoting Mitt Romney: “They should go home eventually. They should have a set period during which they sign up for permanent residency or for citizenship. But there’s a set period where upon they should return home.” This is not a “deport em all” policy. Mitt Romney never suggested such a thing. What he is suggesting here is a procedure for allowing current illegal immigrants to become U.S. citizens without being unfair to the other around the world who follow the legally established procedures for immigration to the United States. The consensus position on immigration policy among conservatives is first and foremost to drastically reduce illegal immigration by securing the border. That generally means extending the border fences to cover areas (such as the Arizona Mexico border) that they do not cover now. Even the pro-amnesty contingent among Republicans (e.g. Senator Graham) maintains this is a necessary first step before any substantive immigration reform can be undertaken. Those conservatives that are not in favor of an in situ amnesty program generally support reduction in illegal immigration levels by attrition. I am not aware of any prominent politician or commentator in favor of “mass deportation”. Such things as making E-verify mandatory or making it more difficult to commit identity theft are the sort of things advocated to give illegal immigrants an incentive to move back and (if they desire) apply through the normal channels. Once the border is secure, there may be a consensus in favor of expanding those channels – guest worker program, etc. |
Malcolm (20), Those GA quotes are good, but Christ taught that sometimes there are weightier matters to consider, and the Church’s behavior reflects this truth. I believe the Church considers the integrity of illegal immigrant families to be a weightier matter than the enforcement of the absolute letter immigration law in every case. |
President Gordon B Hinckley General Conference April 1990 “Obedience to law, when that law has been declared constitutional, is incumbent upon the Latter-day Saints and therefore becomes a standard of eligibility to enter the temples of the Church.” What is the Law of the United States concerning Illegal Immigration Taken from the American Patrol Reference Archive http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/isacrime.html Has committed a Federal crime Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense. US Laws Declare it is Illegal to Aid or Abet Illegal Immigrants |
Malcolm (24), That’s another great GA quote, but it does not reflect the Church’s actual practice. I can dig up hundreds of quotes from prophets and apostles from years past on a number of issues that were thought to be criteria for entrance to the temple, but what matters is our current Church leadership’s approach to things. |
bbell “You are absolutely right. Im in favor of legal immigration and very hostile to illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants I think are essentially stealing.” As another blogger put it |
I remain unpersuaded. President Hinckley was certainly in charge when the decision was made to make inquiries as to immigration status irrelevant to temple or welfare assistance worthiness. That choice wasn’t recent. And there appears to be no visible movement afoot among church leadership to change it. The result may be different for US Citizens who decline, though required, to file tax returns. Different priorities maybe? Like I said, what they do seems more telling than whatever is said during conference, at least with regard to immigration. But I’d keep filing those tax returns. |
Not only do the quotes malcolm has produced not reflect current LDS practice with regards to undocumented people coming into the U.S., those statements also do not reflect current practice with the way we treat the laws of other countries into which we now send missionaries. I have two family members who have recently served in Latin America and the official instructions they received with their mission calls advised them that when they entered the country they would probably encounter some problems, and then gave explicit, step by step directions on what to say to the customs people to avoid being denied entry. Essentially, our missionaries are straight up lying (saying they only intend to be in the country for a period of time less than 90 days) in order to get to the places they are assigned. Until people can explain 1)why we chose to ignore the laws of our own country for over 50 years, and 2)why we continue to ignore the immigration laws of other countries, it does not behoove LDS people to beat the law and order drum too loudly. |
I personally think the church is playing “realpolitic” with immigration. After 50-75 years of expansion in Latin America I cannot imagine the LDS church taking a stand against illegal immigration. It would shake our efforts to the core south of the border and amongst Latino’s in the US. We would be the only church in the US to risk alienating Latino’s. Talk about blowback…. The Church has been tacitly approving of this for decades. Ask missionaries who served in Southern California what the Church does when there were INS checkpoints near chapels. Answer: They move the spanish-speaking ward/branch to a new building. |
bbel 6 is right about immigration and assimilition. “Eventually as they assimilated they became Americans.” As a Bishop in England I personally helped baptised members who were Iranians, Russians and Africans with their aslyum requests. I had members stand up in court pleading their case and we hardly failed. These individuals were then assisted in being part of us in the ward. We helped them in so many ways to get on their feet as if they were totally part of us. The philosophy was that if they were baptised then they were our brothers and sisters.They were expected to learn and speak English taking lessons etc. However church leadership at the area level (Americans)failed to do this. One African Jean Claude Abinawa whose life was in danger if he returned home was sent back to a deportation centre. He rang and asked for 800 pounds for bail to give him more time to present his case. The Stake President under the direction of the Area President (Hillam)refused to to allow any church funds to help. Obviously when you become acquainted with these baptised illegal immigrants in the USA you as an LDS have to show the utmost compassion and assistance where it is possible. In England we feel that assimilation is the best possible way. We had an elder from our ward serve a mission in Texas. After his mission he returned to Texas and married a Mexican girl he had baptised. He was so appalled at the way his new wife was treated by white members in an English speaking ward that he went less active. These members insisted that they had to attend a spanish speaking ward even though he was English. There was NO FEELING OF ASSIMILATION. In the USA the horse has bolted. It has got out of hand. The church baptises then says you on your own-segregates them into their own wards-does not encourage them to integrate by speaking English-nor supports them if they are to be deported. It really is only interested in Baptismal numbers. It is also wrong however for baptised members to have hanging round their necks that they are illegal citizens. This needs to be put right by becoming legal citizens (If necessary with help from the church) or returning back to their homeland with their new found truths. To become sanctified they also need to be justified and they are not justified if they remain illegal against the law of the land and all that this involves in telling lies, using deception, having false documents etc. You cant have it both ways. |
With regard to the Church’s attitude towards following the law, sometimes it seems highly opportunistic, most particularly when President Hinckley encouraged (on national television) the prosecution of polygamists for doing things that were an article of faith in the Church just over a century ago. In this particular case, it is more like honor, obey, and sustain the law except when it is economically advantageous not to. That is opportunism pure and simple. |
Or honor, obey, and sustain the law except when it contradicts with the first and second great commandment. |
why we continue to ignore the immigration laws of other countries, it does not behoove LDS people to beat the law and order drum too loudly. Agreed. Our mission covers two EU countries, both party to the Schengen Agreement, which means that for all intents and purposes, once you’re in, no one is going to check your immigration status even if you are transferred to the other country. So while the missionaries here are not encouraged to violate local immigration law, plenty do not comply with all the requirements because it’s kind of a hassle and there’s no particular consequences for not doing so. Plus, as Americans, there is probably a sense of entitlement about being able to travel without visas anyway. |
You all make interesting points. Dan great post :) |
This is my experience with Mexicans: well, first of all, I thought my grandfather was a Mexican. He looked it and he spoke Spanish and he used tobasco sauce on everything. Turns out he was raised by a Mexican woman in New Mexico when his mother died (he was two, I think). I thought it was cool to have a Mexican grandfather who taught me how to say “kiss my ***” in Spanish. So did he. Which, I guess, is a measure of his character, although he was pretty good as grandfathers go. When I was 12, we moved to Long Beach, California, and lived next door to this lady named Louisa. Can’t remember the last name but she was Mexican. She was so mean, she beat my mom up twice, pulling out a handful of my mom’s hair. For no reason she beat up my mom. We were all scared to death of her. The Mexican girls at school teased up their hair and put razor blades in the teased up hair so that if anybody got their hair in a fight, they got all cut up. We were more scared of the Mexican girls than the guys. I had a lovely Mexican neighbor who I still keep in touch with (and care for her also Mexican mother’s grave). Feliciana told me in no uncertain terms that she would never live next door to Mexicans. She hated living near Mexicans. I went on that awful cruise to Ensenada and saw such poor people. Begging on the street, holding up their babies to me in the window of the tour bus, while I poured out money through the window till my daughter took my purse away. That poor child selling trinkets from a booth will haunt me till the day I die. Those poor people. Going to the courthouse where I was doing an investigative thing on a judge. Boy oh boy, all the illegal Mexicans on trial for violent crimes—assault & rape, using public defenders. Cedar City now has an underbelly—northwest part of town. A couple of streets that used to be such nice little neighborhoods, small, well kept homes have given over to junked up filth with cars and dogs in the yards and people yelling at each other in Mexican. Cops always there. I used to take a little Al-Ateen girl home to the apartments next to the trailer court and it was kind of scary. Mexicans have brought drugs and crime and degradation to our small community. It’s the gospel truth. Americans are good people. We are generous people. This isn’t about racism. If the Mexicans came in, obeyed the law and made our communities better, there wouldn’t be all this backlash. My heart goes out to the border communities in Arizona and I’m with the governor. Enough is enough. Why in the heck can’t they learn our language? So my main experience with Mexicans is that they trash up wherever they live, they rape and assault American citizens, they have no respect for the law and their goal is to take advantage of the American big heart and good life and in the process, are bringing down that good American way of life. They could make their own country better and clean it up. Instead they choose to come here, break the law and trash America. I’m expecting these demonstrations to become brawls and reinforce Arizona’s good judgement in saying “we’ve had it.” I do not agree with our church’s policy that bespeaks “don’t ask, don’t tell.” It’s self-serving and hypocritical. Of course there are “good” Mexicans! Of course many of those making their way illegally across our borders are other races than Mexican; Muslims bent on destroying our country, hello. Just seeing how an influx of Mexicans can totally destroy a previously good neighborhood has made me a believer. They should stay home and live in the garbage dump they created for themselves. |
Further concerning the need for assimilation: President Teddy Roosevelt in 1907, said the following in regards to his idea’s on Immigrants ” In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith, becomes an American and assimilates himself (herself) to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for if it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American… There can be no devided allegiance here. Any man (woman) who says his is an American, but somthing else also, isn’s an American at all. We have no room for but one flag, the American flag…and we have room for but on language here and that is the English language…and we have room but for one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.” |
Here’s a good quote from George will’s column in the Washington Post today:
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See, Dan, this is what I’m saying. As a sort of normal American, I’m asking them to behave decently. If it takes securing our border however we can do it so be it. But heck, Mexico wouldn’t tolerate millions of Americans going in there illegally, breaking their laws and living off their government. No country would. Why do people expect more of Americans than they do themselves. Now that I think of it, Americans SHOULD demonstrate en masse at Mexico’s borders and see how many could go there without documentation. But—isn’t it easy to get into Mexico, but hard to get our? Without a passport, I mean. Increasing the polarity isn’t answer—there’d only be violence. But dang, it chaps my hide. |
I did some stuff down by the border back in 2002 in support of JTF-6 with the U.S. border patrol and I remember the border patrol guys telling us they’d caught people from nearly every country in the world coming through that section of the New Mexico/Mexico border and that’s just the ones they caught! And after seeing all the people that wouldn’t have gotten nabbed if it weren’t for us flying around there, I have to say securing the border should be top priority. A good case to look at is Ciudad/Juarez on one side of the border and El Paso on the other. The only thing keeping the broad daylight gun battles happening in Juarez from spilling into El Paso is a very secure border in that area. That being said it would be beneficial to come to some sort of arrangement where Mexicans can be here legally and work, but that should be on OUR terms not Mexico’s. |
Let there be a 300 yard “free-fire zone” on our side North of the border. Clearly delineate the exact border line, and clearly delinate the 300 yard line. Anything that moves within that zone would be subject to being shot. Let there be a 3/4 mile buffer on each side (east/west) of any legal crossing point that the US Border Patrol would be responsible for. We don’t want legal border crossers getting hit by stray shots. Then let anyone with a gun line up on the 300 yard line. No questions asked. After 2 days, there would be no more illegal crossings. The number of illegals shot in those 2 days would be far less than the number who die in one month from dehydration and starvation and heat-stroke crossing illegally. But seriously, the US has long been capable of sealing that border. The big point is, the US government hasn’t _wanted_ to. Why? A) The dems want cheap votes, B) big business wants cheap labor, C) both dems and repubs want to implement a national ID card to control the rest of us in the name of “illegal immigrant control”. Just you wait. It’s coming. |
annegb 38 “Mexico wouldn’t tolerate millions of Americans going in there illegally” This is how Mexico treats illegals. Should the United States adopt these policies? The Mexican government bars foreigners if they upset “the equilibrium of the national demographics.” If outsiders do not enhance the country’s “economic or national interests” or are “not found to be physically or mentally healthy,” they are not welcome. Neither are those who show “contempt against national sovereignty or security.” They must not be economic burdens on society and must have clean criminal histories. Those seeking to obtain Mexican citizenship must show a birth certificate, provide a bank statement proving economic independence, pass an exam and prove they can provide their own health care. Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two years’ imprisonment. Document fraud is subject to fine and imprisonment; so is alien marriage fraud. Evading deportation is a serious crime; illegal re-entry after deportation is punishable by ten years’ imprisonment. Foreigners may be kicked out of the country without due process and the endless bites at the litigation apple that illegal aliens are afforded in our country (see, for example, President Obama’s illegal alien aunt — a fugitive from deportation for eight years who is awaiting a second decision on her previously rejected asylum claim). Law enforcement officials at all levels — by national mandate — must cooperate to enforce immigration laws, including illegal alien arrests and deportations. The Mexican military is also required to assist in immigration enforcement operations. Native-born Mexicans are empowered to make citizens’ arrests of illegal aliens and turn them in to authorities. Ready to show your papers? Mexico’s National Catalog of Foreigners tracks all outside tourists and foreign nationals. A National Population Registry tracks and verifies the identity of every member of the population.” Interesting? |
Bookslinger– Enforcing the border in a humane manner (ie–not shooting whatever moves) is great and all, but a full 40% of the illegal immigrants in the US never crossed the border illegally. So obviously it won’t solve the problem alone. |
At the roots, I think it is an interesting idea that a nation of immigrants calls themselves “Americans” and then wants to shut out other immigrants. Generally, I’m sympathetic to the illegal immigrant plight. I think the VISA/citizenship process is horrible. I’m not sure what purpose immigration caps serve except to protect the welfare state, which I don’t agree with in the first place. I think caps on immigration should be done away with and a national ID put into place- we’ll call it a drivers license, no maybe something without “license” attached to it. Bookslinger- how would the government “control us” with a national ID? Or was that tongue-in-cheek as well? I think we reduce payroll taxes on small unskilled labor businesses and median to minimum wage employers and make sure folks are taxed at a reasonable rate at their wage level. Every little bit adds to the tax base and supports the welfare state, which is not likely to be going away anytime soon. Then you address healthcare by ensuring costs to providers are reduced in the liability area, while holding higher standards for (i.e. regulating more strictly) Food and Drug approvals. This reduces the burden of insurance and the demand on the welfare state. Problems solved. |
I’m all about the death penalty for immigration violators, but killing them with guns? Too easy. How about we line up and bludgeon them with, say, books instead? This would provide both the visceral satisfaction of having done our part to Keep America Free and we dispense with those “buffer” zones around legal border crossings big enough to drive a trainload of aliens through. Cedar City now has an underbelly Guess what? Ceder City has never been anything but an underbelly since its founding as Little Muddy by a bunch of brainwashed immigrants who for whatever reason thought that moving out to the godforsaken desert was better than staying put. When those early settlers weren’t busy failing to produce iron, they were killing and robbing other immigrants. Too bad they didn’t stay home and live in the garbage dump they created for themselves; a bunch of families from Arkansas would have been a lot better off. |
Charming, LLC. |
Or honor, obey, and sustain the law except when it contradicts with the first and second great commandment. I could use that as an argument for not paying my taxes. Surely any number of charities could spend the money more effectively than the federal government does. |
Malcom, yeah, very interesting! Dang. I suppose there’s some really profound sociological issue to be explored here where most of the world treats illegals worse than we do and still we’re the bad guys. Dang. I guess saying “most of the world ” could be an exaggeration. However you spell it. |
Nasomomdele, after I submitted my first diatribe, I came to work and spoke to some very nice Latinos. I guess I have mixed emotions. Peter. You can be such a dipshit. To no end except to be a dipshit. Guess that’s the pot calling the kettle black. |
Peter, your true personality is showing again. |
Peter, No, no, no. The buffer zones around legal border crossings would be where the Border Patrol would still be tasked with securing the border. By giving them a much smaller area of border to control, rather than the whole thing, they might be able to do something. I think there’s plenty enough yay-hoos with guns in the states who’d take turns manning the 300 yard line. Schedule a camping vacation. Eventually they could build hotels where you could shoot from your room window. After the first few weeks, you really wouldn’t need that many people because the illegal border-crossers would be too afraid to try it anymore. |
Maybe we could just shoot them with slingshots. Just make it uncomfortable for them. Malcolm, #41, I thought I’d responded to this. Yes, I absolutely think we should do what Mexico does. Tit for tat. Our immigration policy towards any country should be the same or more stringent than theirs towards us. Oh, and maybe what we could do is stealth-fly a bunch of our worst criminals down to the south of Mexico and drop them off. |
The First Presidency have made no official statements on this issue for leaders and members to understand and sustain clearly setting out the reasons for their present policy. The reason for this is that they have allowed the situation to get out of hand with illegals becoming stake presidents, Bishops etc. The missionary system also targets those in need like illegals and they make up many of the baptismal numbers of the church in the USA. Or you could interpret this as that the First President has made a very clear, albeit quiet, (un)announcement as to what they believe — that’s it’s an insignificant issue. It seems to me that the Church’s (un)official position is pretty darn clear. I’m no bishop, so I wasn’t in the recent bishop training where (as 2 bishop have told me) that Elder Oaks was very forceful in saying that it wasn’t the Church’s role to enforce immigration if the Feds aren’t going to do it. |
Regarding Teddy in 1907 - “In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith, becomes an American and assimilates himself (herself) to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for if it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American… There can be no devided allegiance here. Any man (woman) who says his is an American, but somthing else also, isn’s an American at all. We have no room for but one flag, the American flag…and we have room for but on language here and that is the English language…and we have room but for one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.” In other words, it sounds like 1907 was just like 2010 and the Republic has survived for 103 years. But I guess we could start by canceling all national and state holidays that celebrate any sort of ethnic or religious identity. We can start with Pioneer Day, St. Patrick’s Day, Columbus Day, and Cinco de Mayo. I will agree that English should be the official language of the State, but I will support businesses’ right to ask you to Press 1 for English (thus catering to their clientele). |
It seems as if some on here are being particularly dense on purpose. For nearly all of the first 66 years of the Church’s existence in this dispensation the Presidents (Smith, Young, Taylor, and Woodruff, and of course all of the general authorities during that period) purposely ignored and counseled breaking federal (and in the early years, state) laws concerning polygamy. The Church counseled the Saints to not even use the government’s court system (state or federal) for much of the Territorial period, but to rely on Church Courts in all matters — civil and criminal. The Church has always stated that obeying God’s law was more important than obeying the “law of the land”. During the Territorial period the Church had settlement and immigration policies which flouted federal law with respect to claiming and diverting water, and encouraging converts to come to Zion by any means possible. It is hard to fulfill our obligations to the poor and needy if we purposely exclude them from our midst so that we never meet them. |
For nearly all of the first 66 years of the Church’s existence in this dispensation the Presidents…purposely ignored and counseled breaking federal…laws concerning polygamy. Realpolitik aside, if a Latter-day Saint made enough noise in favor of violating immigration laws the Church would be forced to excommunicate him. Tax protestors have been excommunicated on similar grounds from time to time, to say nothing of contemporary polygamists. |
Every pioneer that arrived in Utah between 1847 and 1848 was an illegal immigrant into Mexico. Just sayin’ |
Well Mexico sure has gotten their revenge. |
Every pioneer that arrived in Utah between 1847 and 1848 was an illegal immigrant into Mexico. Just sayin’ A couple of problems with that. It is true that Mexico claimed the territory as part of Alta California. By the time the Mormon pioneers arrived, so did the California Republic (for about a month), and then the United States. In fact the U.S.(legitimately or otherwise) was in physical control of the western part of Alta California for almost a year by then. To a degree, all external claims to the Utah part of Alta California were a bit dubious because there do not appear to be any government officials capable of enforcing any kind of law within seven hundred miles of the Salt Lake Valley at the time. The day before the Mormons moved in it was effectively Indian territory. The day after it was effectively Mormon territory. The Mormons were the only people you could reasonably appeal to redress any crimes or injustices. They were the de facto government. One can only wonder how many months / years would pass by before a Mexican or U.S. official would drop by to investigate a robbery or a murder. The last problem is that Mexico apparently did not have had any immigration laws at the time. The U.S. didn’t either. The first U.S. immigration law appears to have been passed in 1875. |
Conservatives who agree with Romney’s latter “deport ‘em all” position need to answer the following policy questions: Excuse me, where did Romney ever claim he was in favor of “deporting” any substantial number of the people here illegally? He didn’t. He is stating his position that illegal immigrants should have to return to their home country before being granted any sort of amnesty. There is no point in answering the questions, because the “deport ‘em all” policy is a straw man advocated by no one. |
Thanks, Mark D., that’s interesting. However, there were those pesky Mexican colonies such as Colonia Juárez; my Grandmother-in-law was personally chased out of town by Pancho Villa and his buddies; appropriate behavior or not? |
djinn: However, there were those pesky Mexican colonies…appropriate behavior or not? This seems relevant:
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I heard Sean Hannity the other day (driving to and from work, I listen to talk radio–not Rush Limbaugh, but Sean Hannity and a couple of really weird guys late at night who often scare the beejezus out of me) and he said that the Arizona law states that IF someone has a run-in with the law, the police are allowed to ask for their “papers.” And they must produce them. Well, I’m ambivalent about that. The very word “papers” does make me think of Nazi Germany and people trying to prove they weren’t Jews. Something about that just grates on me. On the other hand, what Sarah Palin said, God forbid that I should ever think she makes sense, makes sense. Something about Arizona doing what the federal government has failed to do (don’t quote laws in the making to me, the federal government, Republican, Democrat or crazy has had plenty of time to do something about this problem). Dang. This is a problem. You can shove all the hard-working honest respectable illegal Mexicans at me you want, there is a problem. Utah is experiencing it. I can’t imagine what the people of border towns in Arizona and Texas are going through. There’s going to be some real violence started by Americans here. Instead of all the good-looking Mexican achievers showing up on TV proclaiming their illegal beginnings, I’d like to see some Mexican Americans speaking common sense to this issue and speaking up for obedience to the law. They’re making this about race, but if China—or hell, Switzerland—were right next door to us and a whole (previously clean and law abiding) neighborhood of Swiss bent on selling drugs and breaking the law showed up in your town, you’d complain. It’s not about race it’s about degrading our society. I still think we should take our criminals down to Mexico, use a “mule” and drop them deep into the heart of Mexico and see how they like it. Not that they need any more criminals but still. Mormon Schmormon. Enough is enough. Did I say that already? |
In the United States the police don’t say “papers please” they say “license and registration”. The Arizona law does not require U.S. citizens who are not driving to carry or produce identification, it is just a good idea if you are a citizen who (for example) can’t speak English, in case you are stopped for jaywalking or something. |
What? You lost me. I don’t know what you’re talking about. |