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well yeah, God is not a dictator, nor is his prophet. On this post, I agree with you. I still disagree with you on your last post. :) |
Actually, the priesthood was extended to everyone because we don’t have what it takes to stand by difficult truths. (let me guess; most responses are goint to be a bunch of knee-jerk, emtionally based, socially conditioned responses labeling me as racist, ignorant, and every other bad thing) |
Wow, man. That is big enough difference you could go start your own church. I am not sure you would have many congregants, however. |
#2 – And what of polygamy? |
“In the bigger picture, the “readers” of doctrine — the church membership at large — affect it every bit as much.” I will not make a claim as to your level of orthodoxy, but I agree with you. The priesthood leaders are not authorized by the Lord in deciding contrary to the voice of the people. The servents [that is, the priesthood] must obey their master [that is, the church]. The sustaining votes of the law of common consent are what authorize the priesthood keys to function. As you say, it is incorrect to say that our priesthood leaders, “speak, we believe and follow.“ |
I think Orwell is a heretic, not because of this post, but because of his series of posts ridiculing Doctrinal Commentaries for Mormons (1, 2, 3, 4 — I especially recommend 2 and 3). More seriously, this reminds me of something former BYU philosophy professor Chauncy Riddle once said. Paraphrasing, “When the prophet speaks we should be very critical. Not of what he says, but of how we interpret what he says.” I hadn’t thought of this in terms it’s aggregate effect, but I think Orwell makes a good point. |
I agree with most of what you are saying, and would only take issue with a few statements of yours. But in a minor way, and the point overall is something I agree with. That doesn’t answer much to what the Lord’s wills is for us as a church. Broadly it’s eternal life & exaltation but I think He has a specific will for the church that sometimes needs to be changed to get us there. I think of the various statements to the point that we could usher in the millennium if X,Y,Z. There were a lot of things the Lord asked the church to do, and commitments to live by that the church failed consistently, so we were no longer asked to do them (in time). Whether or not polygamy or the priesthood ban fits into those as commented above, I don’t know. I’d think the priesthood ban would be the exact opposite, and in spite of what people think, the scriptures are pretty clear on polygamy, it’s not an eternal principle that get’s practiced in every dispensation, but that didn’t make it any less necessary and crucial for those in the dispensations it existed to live up to it. But I’d look at the united order as a doctrine and principle the Lord had to take away because we refuse to live it. It was amended to basically tithing, service, and fast offerings. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to see the same thing with home teaching. It won’t be taken away, but my guess is it will eventually be modified and the church will be asked to live something else. I don’t like where it is going, because you can see a clear trend is seemingly like much of the church at large is not willing to live higher laws, so they are having to live lessor ones. Of course in many cases people are doing a wonderful job, I’m certain. But it really does worry me to see if we are seeing a modern day reply of the great apostasy. Not that I think we’re anywhere close to that now, but “if this trend continues” (famous last words) I wouldn’t be surprised to see the church in complete disarray in 200 years. Of course, that presupposes unrighteousness among the church at large. As large as the church is striving to be faithful to their covenants, and live the gospel with all their heart, might, mind, and strength, this won’t happen. |
adventurer (2), after carefully and thoughtfully considering your comment, I am perfectly comfortable with calling you racist and ignorant in a calm and rational manner. Mark D. (3), surely you jest. It’s hardly that radical. You know, I’m glad you commented because it reminds me of our linguistic discussion from a while back (which I remember so fondly); you could probably sum up this whole post by saying that, though so many church members like to think of church authority in prescriptive terms, I see it as being much more descriptive than most people realize. In the simplest terms possible, church leadership is a dictionary — something that we look to for answers. They are very useful and helpful. However, dictionaries ultimately receive their author-ity from the linguistic community they reflect and, therefore, always end up adapting to actual usage over time. They can have a lot of influence, but they don’t have the final say. Tagore (6), those commentaries reveal eternal truths, like the one revealed in this comment — for those that have eyes to see. |
chris (7):
There are certainly many details, subtleties, and exceptions that I gloss over for the sake of keeping things big picture. I know that real life isn’t as essentialist as this (on the other hand, it’s not as essentialist as the prevailing mormon paradigm of author-ity either). For example, there’s a lot to be said about how much church leadership does affect cultural hegemony, even if it can’t completely control it.
You’re right, it doesn’t. It deals more with who gets to decide what we accept as the Lord’s will for the church. The language in the first paragraph is probably not as precise as it should be in that regard.
Those are certainly open to interpretation. I prefer the way I look at it; but, as I’ve already pointed out in the post, it’s hard to back up either side of either issue with scriptures or GA quotes in a definitive way. So, you can pretty much see them however you want. The United Order is another good example.
Yes, I see what you mean, but that also presupposes that some of the things we can’t live are always from God. I am not convinced that is true in every case. Also, I think it’s important to consider this idea from the other end: why do these changes have to move as away from God? Can’t our combined, increasing righteousness move us towards changes that bring us closer to God in ways we could not accept in the past? Can we not look at history through that lens? I think this idea might make people uncomfortable because they see the church as unchangeable. That’s idiocy, in my opinion — it’s one of those things we say so often that people start to believe it, but it’s completely unsubstantiated by history. The church has changed drastically in the past… and in ways that members at the time never thought would happen according to the “truths” they considered to be eternal. Many of these changes may have made members profoundly uncomfortable at first — but their staying power validated them in the end. So, yes, this leaves the door open to profound changes in the future — changes that many may consider apostasy, even when they eventually hear them from the pulpit. |
I agree with you, Orwell, as far as I’m intellectually capable of understanding, which is admittedly limited. I sure agree with you about caffeine. When I was younger, I was very obedient to the letter of the law and judgemental of those who weren’t. Now I’m older, been around the block thousands of times and fallen EVERY DARN TIME!—I’m more relaxed. I think it comes down to how we treat each other. It could take me till a few minutes before I die to implement true Christian principles but I think we elevate form over substance way too much. I don’t remember where you live, and I’ve harped on this much to ESO’s chagrin, but living immersed in Mormon culture, as opposed to Mormon doctrine, there’s a very solid case to be made for the acceptance and social status that accompanies orthodoxy. What’s kind of sad is how I see relief in the faces of those valiantly and diligently striving young mothers (sorry, I’m biased for women in my train of thought) when I say something like, “for crying out loud, canned tomatoes that you buy in the store cost less in time AND money. If you’re exhausted, go buy some!” or a reasonable facsimile. I don’t know about the voice of the people thing. I’m intrigued, though. Adventurer, yeah, you pretty much suck. |
Orwell,9, Anyway, I think the Lord definitely gives us line upon line. I wonder if He also takes away line upon line, via United Order and I’m sure some other examples. We really are comparable to the children of Israel in so many ways. I really hope, we’re not comparable in terms of the higher vs. lessor law, where they lost the right to the higher priesthood. I don’t actually think it would be that bad, and I think your optimism is great that perhaps the members will gradually force the change for the better. I think this is probably true in certain small ways (who cares about women wearing pants, Mountain Dew, or railing against birth control — some of the principles behind these positions are important but I don’t know how Gospel-crucial they are). On the small details I think you’re right, the members can pull the church in the right direction. On the large issues, I think the members are often our own worse enemies. I think there are a lot more “big threats” (poor choice of word) to the Church by buffet/3hrs on Sunday Mormons, than there is from our GAs and Apostles getting creative with an active reading of the text that doesn’t really create new doctrine, just new ways of looking at doctrine, etc. Now maybe a handful of GAs can be off their rocker. But generally I think the lackadaisical attitude most members have toward the Gospel, in spite of giving 10% of their income among other things, are more of a concern than a thousand Tender Mercy talks, which might not necessarily be accurate across the entire spectrum of the Gospel, but still faith promoting. But again, I can be positive because it’s not just the GAs and Apostles preaching, and it’s not just a bunch of sinners out there on their own, but we’ve got the Lord on our side and the spirit is the one and thing that can unite us–so long as we don’t harden our hearts. |
Um, no, you’re not a heretic. But I’d say you’re a navel-gazer. |
Whoa there, chris, don’t try and put me on the record as calling GAs threats! Not my words… And I didn’t mean to imply that the “tender mercies” talk is bad or wrong (although I can’t deny that I have cringed on occasion when I have heard others repeatedly use the phrase)… it was just a recent example of the phenomenon I am talking about. |
Bookslinger, if you mean by “navel-gazer” that I am being excessively introspective here, perhaps you are right (although a guy with the a handle as active as “Bookslinger” could probably accuse the whole world of navel-gazing); however, I don’t think enough Mormons think about these issues nearly enough. If you’re saying I’m self-absorbed, you’re absolutely correct — but I’m not exactly sure what that has to do with this post. |
Oh I wasn’t saying that was your words… sorry. Like I said, it was a poor choice of words when I was typing it and was just look for a word, hence the scare-quotes, not actual quotes. You’ve already called yourself a heretic, what’s a threat between imaginary friends? |
Nah, I don’t think I’m a heretic. I just think that too many Mormons would find this perspective heretical. |
Orwell and whomever else; please read the following definitions of racism -the belief that race can account for major differences in human character or ability -a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races influence cultural or individual achievement When going STRICTLY by the two preceding definitions, then yes I am a racist, and so is every other reasonably intelligent and self-aware human on the planet. Please note, these definitions include nothing uncharitable or un-Christlike in their content. Regrettably, people attach definitions of other words like bigotry, hatred and so forth to a term that is actually objective and emotionally neutral. They muddy the waters and interfere with clarity of perspective. As for my ignorance, I have grounds for thinking otherwise. I have two degrees, one at the graduate level, my undergraduate was at BYU. I have basic fluency in two foreign languages. I have lived in two foreign coutries and visited about 12 others. I have lived in 8 states and every region except New England. The demographics of communities I have lived in cross almost every reasonable spectrum. And in case you are wondering about my intelligence, my I.Q. score qualifies for membership to MENSA. As for starting my own church, no thanks, I am happily a member of Jesus Christ’s church. I will say, we focus too much in his church on the number of congregants instead of focusing on conversions and thus dilute the potency and purity of His church’s population. Regarding the extension of the priesthood, why do we put ourselves on such a pedestal? Do we realize how demeaning we are to the Saints who did this work for the first 150 years? I don’t think we do. Were they mostly just ignorant biased cowards or are we a bunch of p.c. junkies conditioned to believe what society tells us? I also see people trying, and the church media department, trying to present p.c. versions of Joseph Smith. How bogus! His presidential platform proposed to reimburse slave owners the price of their slaves and then ship them back to Africa. Do your research. I bet you won’t see that in any lds film. In summary, I see the conditioning of the world, and our willingness to sacrifice the truth in order to keep the peace, slowly eroding the integrity of our gospel understanding. |
“my undergraduate was at BYU” I’m so not surprised. “Were they mostly just ignorant biased cowards?” On this issue, yes. “His presidential platform proposed to reimburse slave owners the price of their slaves and then ship them back to Africa. Do your research. I bet you won’t see that in any lds film.” That was Lincoln’s idea too. Quit judging history by today’s standards. That was actually a very progressive idea in the 1840s. The part you’re missing is that it actually required FREEING THE SLAVES. There’s no part of “Truth” involved in the priesthood ban. There was no revelation involved in its beginning, and there were black people ordained to the priesthood before it was implemented. Maybe you should check you’re history, Mr. MENSA. Incidentally, what’s your problem with the ban having been ended? |
MCQ, there are so many problems in your post, I am not sure where to start. Should I try to address them all, which would be quite voluminous, or should I just try to go for a shorter ‘gist’ type of reply. Let me try the ‘gist’ format first for efficiency. My concern is that we would rather rewrite history and condemn the judgment of the LDS population at large for its first 150 years than face difficult truths in ourselves and the gospel. We aren’t willing to face the most difficult battles against the world or within ourselves, so we conform, we re-write doctrine to placate society, we slander those we should honor. Basically, we sacrifice the truth in order to keep the peace. We are behaving like conformist egotistical cowards, which has immeasurable destructive consequences. |
I have held the opinion for a long time that racism was the reason we denied black saints the priesthood. This is an interesting article on the issue and raises some fascinating points that point to the contrary. I would really like to see what you guys think. http://www.bhporter.com/Cain.htm |
adventurer, it would be hard to find anything more destructive and cowardly than was the priesthood ban and the folk doctrines that supported it. There was no real doctrine behind it at all. Not ever. |
MCQ, You may be right, I completely admit that. But you are really missing the point. can you summarize what you think my point is in one or two sentences? If not, then I will respond and try to put it in one simple statement. |
“Actually, the priesthood was extended to everyone because we don’t have what it takes to stand by difficult truths.” “Do we realize how demeaning we are to the Saints who did this work for the first 150 years? I don’t think we do. Were they mostly just ignorant biased cowards or are we a bunch of p.c. junkies conditioned to believe what society tells us?” I thought these statements pretty well summarized your point. Priesthood ban = difficult truth and ending the ban was based purely on political correctness and conformity. It’s obviously wrong, and it ain’t exactly complicated. If your main point is that we’re not giving enough respect to BY and the brethren who supported the ban, then I understand, but it’s not disrespectful to say someone was wrong. Even the best people are wrong sometimes. Happens to even MENSA candidates. |
Orwell, your OP seems to have a problem accepting those parts of our belief system that are not concretely defined. Perhaps the things you enumerate were never intended by the Lord to be concetely defined. Maybe the hard-to-pin-down questions are on purpose. Maybe some of those things really do matter, maybe they don’t. And maybe they only matter to the applicable living saints at the time, there being nothing “eternal” about it, but it may just be a contemporary test of those involved. I’m not sure what your goal is, to seek resolution to the questions (to nail the jello to the wall) or to just engage in hand-wringing. And if you’re just hand-wringing, I’m still unsure what you’re hand-wringing about. Are you complaining that things aren’t tied down real pretty, or are you complaining that many members _think_ things are tied down real pretty when they’re not? Are you claiming that something is inherently wrong in the Mormon “system” when one stake president demands his EQ presidents be clean-shaven and another doesn’t? Personally, I think many of these things are nuanced, both in terms of time and location, and are simultaneously part of the “obedience test” of the saints at that particular time and location. IE, in the eternal sense, beards don’t matter, but it does matter if you honor your leaders in their requests, regardless of the explanations given. So instead of being overly introspective, maybe it’s more looking beyond the mark. |
I think Orwell is saying that when it comes to church doctrine and practices, we like to think that it’s the prophet that has the final say, when it reality it’s the membership who, in the end, has to take responsibility for those things. I think he’s right. |
The sustaining votes of the law of common consent are what authorize the priesthood keys to function. Not really. It’s a rote symbol like a group hug for the newly called. |
MCQ, First, you are mocking me. Please stop, it is rude. The topic of MENSA was introduced only to defend myself and was appropriate in context. Secondly, you have missed my point. And when you say I am obviously wrong, you need to substantiate your claim. What EXACTLY is so obvious that proves any assertion of mine false? Also, you say my argument isn’t complicated. What is the relevance of that statement? Is it supposed to be complicated in order to be true or profound? Third, you claim to state my point and then jump into the use of the word ‘if’ when identifying my point and jump into laying a different agenda against me. That second attemp is irrelevant since you supposedly already identified my point in the previous paragraph. So do you understand my point exactly or not? Apparently not, because you jump from saying my point ‘is’ one thing, but then you say ‘if’ it is something else. You clearly don’t understand my point. Please leave your emotions at the door so we can talk in more disciplined tones. Fourth, it isn’t disrespectful to say someone is wrong if you do it respectfully and from a legitimate position of knowledge, understanding, and proper intent. Saying the Saints who supported the ban for 150 years did so out of ignorance and cowardice is not a legitimate position. |
“Saying the Saints who supported the ban for 150 years did so out of ignorance and cowardice is not a legitimate position.” Saying that those who held to a racist position were ignorant is not only legitimate, it’s beyond dispute. It’s not an insult to say that someone is ignorant when they are not in possession of the relevant facts pertaining to a particular issue. It’s just accurate. Now, I admit that it’s a stretch to say that everyone who supported the priesthood ban was a coward. Perhaps conformist is a better word. It took some wonderful scholars and brave boat-rockers to begin the process of undoing the ban, and it still took a long time to bring along the hearts and minds of the people who could make it happen. Once a position becomes entrenched it takes brave souls to question it. Those who defend it in the face of all common sense and relevant evidence do come off looking cowardly in hindsight, but that’s partly just the bias of hindsight, I suppose. In any event, you’re going to a lot of trouble to poke holes in my characterization of your position. there are two problems with that: 1. My characterization quotes you directly, and |
MCQ, No it is not beyond dispute. You sound like an Obamacrat who keeps saying the debate is over on any issue they can’t properly face. Your assertion is not beyond dispute by a long shot, and it is a demonstration of unintelligent cowardice to attempt to hide behind the illusion of a settled argument. Here is my point in 3 sentences. It is our responsibility to understand all of the elements that make up the Gospel (insofar as is reasonably possible) on its own terms, and groom ourselves to become harmonized with those eternal truths and principles. Whenever we seek to do anything other than this, for any reason and in any way or degree, we then compromise our integrity individually and/or collectively with that which is eternal and thus distance ourselves from our Heavenly Father and our divine That being said, we need to quit being so sure that everything we do, even when from the Prophet, is absolutely correct. When we begin to change ouselves to fit the Gospel, instead of changing the Gospel to fit ourselves, we will begin to see much more harmony in church doctrine and practice over time,(yes I allow for ongoing revelation and appropriate changes) and the Lord won’t have to keep adjusting doctrine to suit generational values. Values, I might add, which are held in overconfidence by EVERY generation. In fifty years, conformist minds like yours will be mocked and ridiculed for things which barely cross your mind because they seem so obvious and banal. Wait and see. |
Orwell, my apologies for the confusion. I was referring to comment number 2. As to your original post, I don’t think you are a heretic. There is a healthy tension between an emphasis on orthodoxy and orthopraxy, and certainly sometimes downplaying orthodoxy can be beneficial in practical terms. In the long run, however, I believe it is critical to the health of the Church to develop a careful theology about fundamental principles and to teach it. While avoiding mysteries and irresolvable disputes, of course. As I have argued before, in my opinion the Church is dangerously close to a theology free zone where we can write what the Church actually spends any substantial effort teaching on a few of sheets of paper, and it is collection of rumors, speculations, and historical errata that dominate class discussions after that. Three normative statements per lesson, that is about it. This works really well up to a point, but I don’t see how a church can prosper in the long run without teaching people how to think carefully about moral religious questions. The consequent lack of theological seriousness leaves an intellectual vacuum where the flow of ideas is always from the outside rather than the reverse, except in the barest fundamentals. The _best_ kind of teaching by far is the teaching that makes so much sense that it has a persuasive influence on people who are not members, have no particular testimony of Joseph Smith, modern day prophets, etc. If the doctrines of the church cannot be expressed in terms that influence those of other faiths who are familiar with them for the better, the Church is faltering in its mission, in my opinion. |
Bookslinger, your comment #24 is baffling — it appears this post has rubbed you the wrong way. I’m afraid that I can’t pin down the source of your irritation, however, as very little in your comment speaks to anything I have written.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. You say there are elements of our belief system that are not “concretely defined,” which you imply that you yourself accept. Well, if they are not “concretely” defined, why do you appear to think that I am obligated to accept them concretely? Would you deny me the opportunity to exercise faith in the absence of knowledge?
I fail to see how this is a critique of anything I wrote. I never passed any judgment on whether the Lord wants these things to be “concretely defined” or not. In fact, I pretty much left that out of it entirely. This is an analysis of how things become defined as part of the consensus orthodoxy or otherwise, not a value judgment of what should or should not be a part of it (though I may have tipped my hand as to what I think about the priesthood ban). I suggest that the body of the saints ultimately has the final say in these matters and that I don’t think it is a bad thing. That’s pretty much it.
I proposed no resolution to any of these questions and am not particularly disturbed by them or their constant state of flux. I merely think it is interesting to see how things play out over time, to see what the body of the saints eventually receives and what it does not. You keep throwing around words like “complaining” and “hand-wringing,” which is curious because the original post does not contain a single complaint regarding “non-concrete issues” nor does it really lament to any degree their state of irresolution. It’s actually quite analytical. It’s true that it is often easy to misread tone, but in this case I think you’re straining to attribute to me attitudes and ideas that simply aren’t validated by the text. As I have already said, the issues themselves are not the point — it’s how the membership deals with them that I am trying to explore.
Faith always involves a fair amount of ambiguity… I came to terms with that a long time ago. Besides, need I state again that this was never about whether there should or shouldn’t be ambiguity?
I’ve already admitted that I deliberately glossed over a lot of detail and nuance for the sake of the big picture (it’s a long post as it is, I didn’t want to try people’s patience). As for beards, I don’t recall expressing an opinion or encouraging disobedience to one’s leaders.
Are we talking about the same post? When did I ever say I had a problem with leaders having different opinions? And what’s with the beard obsession?
“Looking beyond the mark” is an expression usually reserved for the overly dogmatic. I hardly think you can accuse me of that from this post — so if you have some other evidence, I’d be interested to see it. Otherwise, I can only suppose you’re trying to coin a new meaning for the phrase, in which case you’ll have to let me in on the secret because I can’t read your mind. |
Orwell, I don’t know why you can’t just be satisfied with my summary. I’m so much more succinct and pithy, you should just appoint me your official spokesperson and be done with it. |
Mark D., yeah, I realized you were talking about adventurer after I made that comment. The confusion’s my fault there, I think.
Ain’t that the truth. I would roughly gauge the current state of “what the Church actually spends any substantial effort teaching” at the contents of Gospel Principles… and shrinking. |
adventurer, it’s very astute of you to have discerned from afar that I am, in fact the Obama administration’s ambassador to the bloggernacle. As such, of course, I have access to the nation’s leading experts in cultural prognostication and they have informed me that your sophomorish predictions about the future are unworthy of serious attention. All such speculation is irrelevant to me anyway, as I intend to go out in a blaze of glory as soon as I turn 65, which doesn’t quite give me enough time to hang around for 50 years to see if you turn out to be correct. But good luck with that. |
Let me tell you what’s going on here, adventurer. You have selectively chosen a set of teachings and beliefs from the set of the whole that prophets have given over the centuries. You believe these to be correct. We (and I daresay the current Church consensus) accept a different set. So, let me ask you this: Are you saying that you believe that it is an eternal truth that black men have no business holding the priesthood and that the ending of the ban “compromise[s] our integrity individually and/or collectively with that which is eternal and thus distance[s] ourselves from our Heavenly Father and our divine destiny[s]?” Throwing quotes and scriptures at each other won’t change anyone’s mind, so I don’t really see the point in polemicizing with you. But, if your answer to my question is “yes,” then you have my pity. I don’t usually believe in belittling others’ beliefs, but in your case I’ll make an exception. I shudder to think that you represent the Church to the people around you. It is my personal opinion that your attitudes and beliefs are a disgrace to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and an obstacle to the edification of the Kingdom of God. I think this quote from DKL is appropriate in your case:
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#20, don’t get me started on those Heartland Model guys. |
I’m reading this book called The Outliers and one of the points it makes, which I agree with, is that really smart people can also be really stupid. A person can be high in IQ and very low in emotional intelligence. Nothing makes me gag more than somebody bragging they’re a member of mensa. I want to say “well, I guess your butt is truly golden.” |
Orwell 35, I’m not adventurer, but why can’t we have our cake and eat it too? The ban was true, up until it wasn’t to be practiced. Polygamy was a true principle for the saints to follow, up until it wasn’t to be practiced. Now I think adventurer goes off a bit too far in suggesting the church is somehow at fault for supposedly perverting true doctrine that forbids blacks from holding the priesthood in this life. I think it’s rather a question of the Lord’s on due time. I really have issue with the church supposedly being white supremacists when Indians, Pacific Islanders, etc. were given the priesthood. They’re skin was not white. It was not solely a skin color issue, was it? But really I think going down this track is useless. I just bristle at seeing someone call our church leadership racist and ignorant, etc. I’m not sure what the purpose is in insulting someone is. We have McConkie’s own statements on the subject… he was judging, as to the “whys” with a limited light, but now that we’ve received the revelation, let’s get with the program. Ignore the reasoning and doctrines of the past as it does not pertain today. I know you’re doing that already, but I don’t get why you have to get a quick stab in to make it all the more clear how much you disagree. This is like some in the early Apostolic church wanting to cling to the law of Moses. We can move on, but it doesn’t mean you should call all those Jews who lived the lessor law ignorant, weak minded cowards, etc. just because we have new revelation to live by. |
btw, I’m happy to move on, and I think we should. I don’t know why we have to kick dust on the graves of those who came before us in the process though. It suffices for me to say, that’s not what the church teaches today, which means that doctrine has no truth today. I would likewise say that if the Bishop asked you to deed your property to him, even though the united order is a true principle, what the bishop would be asking would have no truth in today’s world. Of course the difference is one is a principle to pattern your life on, and the other is an issue of the Lord’s timing for bringing the fullness of the gospel to all the people of the world. |
I don’t think the ban was true. I think it was a mistake. |
“and the other is an issue of the Lord’s timing for bringing the fullness of the gospel to all the people of the world.” How do you know that, Chris? You’re making a judgment about the ban, and your judgment is that it was begun by divine inspiration and continued for the same reason. That would be a very interesting fact, if it were true. Unfortunately, I know of no evidence supporting that conclusion. |
chris (38-39):
It’s your prerogative to read it that way if you want to, but I read it differently, as far as the ban is concerned. I don’t believe I made a value judgment on polygamy.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. I do think it was tragic that the ban happened at all, let alone that it lasted so long. However, I don’t think you can accuse me of presentism regarding those that lived through that period. I haven’t called any of them cowards or insulted them in any way. I don’t see where I’ve “kicked dust” on anyone’s grave. I have insulted adventurer, but that is for his current belief (that he freely volunteered here, I might add) that black people not having the priesthood is some kind of eternal truth and that the church’s abandonment of the idea leads us away from the kingdom of God. That is an entirely different matter, and I stand by what I said to him. |
If all of you that support the priesthood bam could kindly tell why you think Joseph Smith was in error and point to the post Joseph revelation that began the ban I would appreciate it. |
Exactly, arJ. If there were anything that showed a divine origin for the ban, it would be one thing, but for people to show up and attribute it to God based on nothing whatsoever, and then tell us we’re being insulting, is just beyond ridicuous. |
I believe the first proclamation against blacks was in 1952 by Brigham Young. |
sorry, 1852 |
I was kind of insulting. |
No, Daniel, I think you were right the first time. You see, Joseph Fielding Smith was giving a talk, and all of a sudden his voice began to sound subtly different, within moments even his face had taken on Brigham’s features, but it was the super-quick-growing neckbeard that clinched it… |
I apologize for only just now getting around to reading this, Orwell. This is an amazing post. Great work! |
I apologize for changing your subject to “Adventurer bugs me” and then to “the ban was racist.” Except for being a racist member of mensa, I think Adventurer and I have a lot in common. |
uh….thank you annegb, i think. btw – most people attach a huge number of characteristics and emotions to the word racism which renders the term nearly impossible to be used accurately at-large. racism correctly defined doesn’t include bigotry, oppression, ignorance, unintelligence and so forth. In fact, it carries no emotion. It is a perspective which is continually being legitimized by science and I stand by it. Yes I am a racist, and so is everyone else. Lastly, since the ban has been lifted, I have supported its application and done nothing to interfere. The difference lies in my opinion as to why it was lifted when it was lifted. I never said it shouldn’t ever be lifted. |
Terrific post Orwell. I’m late to the party too but I agree with your overall points wholeheartedly. (Also, I’m glad you smacked down that racist moron who was trying to threadjack here. Anyone who tells strangers they are a member MENSA is truly socially retarded.) |
Geoff J, It is a pity you don’t see the irony here. The refernce to MENSA was included in proper context as a pre-emptive measure against people like you who would call me a moron because you don’t like my opinion. ( An opinion which I seriously doubt you understand.) Sure enough, just as I expected, you and people like you have slandered my intelligence and called me ignorant despite the legitimate evidence I have presented to prove otherwise. I strongly encourage anyone who want to make comments towards me to go back and reread my posts with mental discipline and with an absence of emotion. You will find that my arguments can stand on their own two feet. If you have a legitimate counterpoint please address it properly and critique its concepts rather than attacking its author in a blind rage of self-satisfied fury. |
adventurerboy, The truth is that when I called you a racist moron I really wanted to say you are a racist puppy. But since this is a Mormon site I chose a substitute word. Of course I am not perfect either. For instance I find myself hoping I will be there to witness Jesus forgiving us all for our sins. |
Sorry, no can do, adventurer, since I can’t get through your #17 without falling into a fit of delirious laughter. |
Adventurer never claimed that he was a member of MENSA. He only claimed that his IQ would qualify him for MENSA. Since he is new around here I’ll point out to him and anyone else that is reading: nobody here cares, for a variety of reasons. You’re not the smartest person in the room by a long shot, and we wouldn’t care even if you were. We’re looking at what you say, your claim of irrelevant credentials is in fact irrelevant. |
I think Adventurer is a totally made up person. |
Then show exactly the flaw(s) in my argument. I see a lot of posts reflecting only your emotional responses in which you attempt to do anything but deconstruct my arguments. I don’t see much in the way of disciplined analysis. Here is something new to wrap your heads around. If the Lord will never allow the prophet to lead his church astray, and the ban was the work of men and not God. Then isn’t the CJCLDS totally an apostate institution? Logic says it must be because apprx. 150 years of denying the priesthood to worthy people out of bigotry is definitely a solid case of being led astray. Which leaves us in Orwell’s world where the populace determines doctrine and not God. Anyone else see a problem with that?????? The only way the CJCLDS can be legitimate is if the ban was from our Heavenly Father for His reasons and not for ours. Our responsibility is to divine (no pun intended) his reasons for that if possible and then to honor it whether we understand or not. We cannot legitimately run-down those who have come before us on this issue. Blacks were not denied the priesthood because of racial bigotry. Given that the ban was of God and not man, it was our responsibility to honor it until his purposes were fulfilled and not make a mistake which is similar to repeatedly asking for the 116 pages of manuscript. Nevertheless, God is very patient, we did continue to ask and he relented. I have no doubt the reversal of the ban was divinely inspired. I just think it was for less flattering reasons than most of us are willing to accept. |
Alright adventurer, I’ll bite. You have offered nothing to counter the argument that the priesthood ban was never approved of by God to begin with. Show us the revelation from God the started it and you might have a leg to stand on. My contention is that God simply tolerated it as he tolerates lots of knuckleheaded things on earth. If the Lord will never allow the prophet to lead his church astray This argument is based entirely on a subjective definition of “astray”. I argue that God lets free will trump knuckleheaded opinions of the leaders of his church. Further, even in the face of wrongheaded ban (which apparently Joseph Smith did not agree with) the church is still here and still going strong and God still leads it so it must not have gone too far astray. Then isn’t the CJCLDS totally an apostate institution? It is an institution staffed by “fallen” humans so of course it is less than perfect. But that doesn’t mean it is not directed by God anyway. Which leaves us in Orwell’s world where the populace determines doctrine and not God. Also known as the actual world we live in. That is as opposed to the mythical world that you apparently live in where history is rewritten to make all past human errors in the church God’s will. The only way the CJCLDS can be legitimate is if the ban was from our Heavenly Father for His reasons and not for ours FALSE. (But we’ll kind of miss you as you start your own more pure church bud) We cannot legitimately run-down those who have come before us on this issue. Sure we can. It is super easy. All it takes is for us to realize the were human beings and not demi-gods. Unfortunately that is really hard for some people to do. Nevertheless, God is very patient Indeed. It is a wonder he put up with the uninspired ban for as long as he did. |
I enjoyed this post. Very interesting perspective. Marketing naturally happens with ideas just as it happens with products in the market place. This reminds me of a reference I read to a talk given by President Packer at a Stake Conference. “Boyd K Packer maintains that the lord gives an idea to his people then moves aside and watches as they struggle to come up to his expectations.” So it isn’t important that the body of the church is receiving potent doctrine but rather that the Lord’s expectations are still coming to pass. Thanks again for your post! |
adventurer, The flaw in your argument is quite simply that it has no basis in fact. If you are going to claim that the ban is inspired rather than an attitude that BY inherited from the culture he was raised in (which was fully of supposedly scriptural justifications for the evils of the time) you need to show a revelation that instituted the ban after Joseph Smith had given the priesthood to black people. Either that or claim that Joseph was wrong. I don’t see you doing either one. Rather, you are going through logical convulsions in order to try to fit the facts to your worldview. |
adventurer, Is there a respectful name for a person who takes a supremely hurtful and wrongheaded position; pre-emptively dismisses all future responses as being knee-jerk, emotionally based and socially conditioned; and then demands disciplined analysis deconstructing his “arguments”? There is, but I’m not going to use it because admins would just change it to “puppy.” Why is it okay to assume we are socially conditioned and the saints in the 1800s were not? Why must we assume that the ban was instituted by God (contra evidence) but then turn around and interpret the 1978 ban reversal (for which there *is* evidence of inspiration) and interpret it as spineless leaders pestering God until he relents and goes against his better judgment? You are a bundle of contradictions and false assumptions. All of your arguments in support of the ban can be applied equally well to the ban-reversal, which means you have offered nothing in support of your position other than your misguided assumptions. For example, you said: The only way the CJCLDS can be legitimate is if the ban was from our Heavenly Father for His reasons and not for ours. According to this same logic, the only way the church can be legitimate today is if the ban-reversal was from our HF and for his reasons only. Yet, somehow (without argument) you feel comfortable making this assertion about the ban without applying the same logic to the ban-reversal. In the case of the ban-reversal, you discount it as pressure on God from socially conditioned pestering prophets. You say it is demeaning to the early saints to say the ban was man-made, but somehow you don’t find it demeaning to the prophets in 1978 to accuse them of not having what it takes to stand by the truth. Does this count as careful deconstruction of your arguments, or am I just a knee-jerk socially conditioned p.c. junkie? |
Jacob: There is, but I’m not going to use it because admins would just change it to “puppy.” Hehe. What? Are implying I originally wrote a word that starts with the letter “a” and ends with the letter “hole” and the admins changed it to “puppy”? Don’t be ridiculous! |
If ‘astray’ is a subjective term, then thre are no limits on what can be excused. If ‘astray’ is a subjective term, then all terms are subjective and we have no law. If we have no law, then……………..this train of thought should be automatically followed to its natural conclusion if you are familiar with the Book of Mormon. When you attempt to justify yourselves by eliminating the meaning of words, you are practicing priestcraft. Which should also be familiar to anyone who has studied the Book of Mormon. Astray is not a subjective term, therefore, logic dictates your arguments must be wrong. My points have been clearly made and clearly defended. This concludes my post on the subject. |
Wow, something tells me Mensa’s standards are falling lately. |
Guys read what he wrote. MENSA has never let him in. |
It was a joke, arj. |
I will not allow the good name of Mensa to be joked about in this forum! |
Har! Alright which one of your guys is playing the role of this “adventurer” character? Clearly this is not a real human being. (I assume this ridiculous character is an homage to the BoH retrospective going on right now.) |
No kidding. Freaking hilarious, though. Especially the part about words being absolute. |
adventurer: Actually, the priesthood was extended to everyone because we don’t have what it takes to stand by difficult truths. Actually, the reverse is true. The priesthood was witheld from blacks from 1850 to 1978, because Mormons of that era didn’t have what it takes to stand by the difficult truth that God doesn’t withhold blessings based on earthly lineage or notions of pre-mortal valiance. Historically, this has been a difficult truth for many to accept. In the New Testament (John 9:1-7), Jesus and the apostles encountered a blind man. The apostles sought an explanation for the man’s blindness, asking, “who sinned, this man or his parents?” Apparently, they found it difficult to believe that God did not curse people based on their lineage (in this case, the blind man’s parents). Fortunately, Jesus set the record straight, answering, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned; he was born blind so that God’s works might be revealed in him.” Based on this, the more likely truth is that blacks are a special people chosen of God to make his works manifest to the rest of humanity, because many blacks embrace the gospel in spite of a racially prohibitive ban on full church participation. I’m sorry that this truth (that God doesn’t withhold blessings based on earthly lineage) remains a difficult one for you to accept. |
I entertain the thought that if there was a curse, it was on the membership of the Church for their racism. And I don’t mean racism in the supposedly benign way that adventurer claims to be racist. |
What I’m wondering is which one of you is actually adventurer and arguing with yourself. |
Just check the IP address annegb. The actor behind the character should be easy enough to discern for all y’all admins. |
I really like this post, Orwell. You make excellent points. The issues that come to my mind that fit your description well are birth control and President Kimball’s brief attempt to stop oral sex among members ;) in the 1980s. In both cases, the Church’s counsel ended up bowing to what people on the ground were actually doing, rather than the other way around. |
So, let’s see if I understand this, Ziff: people were on the ground having oral sex and using birth control in the 80s? And the Church’s counsel bowed to what they were doing? Man, clearly, you went to some great ward parties back in the day. I knew I shouldn’t have spent so much of the 80s on a mission! |
DKL wrote: “Actually, the reverse is true. The priesthood was witheld from blacks from 1850 to 1978, because Mormons of that era didn’t have what it takes to stand by the difficult truth that God doesn’t withhold blessings based on earthly lineage or notions of pre-mortal valiance.” IMO, that’s a pretty good description. I think there is likely more to the full story, but you’ve captured a part of it. MCQ: The Church Handbook of Instructions is evidence of the church’s change in stance on birth control. Several prophets up through SWK were on record having denounced artificial birth control even for the spacing of, as well as for limiting the number of children. I joined the church in the early 80′s, and there were several members in the ward who liked to repeat that using any form of artificial birth control (that is other than the rhythm method) was a sin and one of the modern evils. So even if prohibition of birth control wasn’t actual doctrine, it was still preached by leaders back in the day. I don’t know what the CHoI said at that time, but my understanding is that now the CHoI has something about the number, spacing, and issue of birth control is entirely up to the couple. As to the reason of the change, one can only speculate, but the church’s counsel on the issue has indeed changed. |
It was a joke, Bookslinger. |
Orwell, thanks for your clarification. I think you do have a point then. The United Order was another example. The Lord gave the members a shot at it, and it didn’t work out. “Ok, you guys have demonstrated that you can’t or don’t want to handle it, so we’re not going to do it any more.” The opportunity to build Zion in Jackson County Missouri was given to the Saints, and the members at the time couldn’t or at least didn’t live up to it. Joseph said there were several things the Missouri saints weren’t doing right, like not building their temple, which brought on the problems/chastening, etc. (or at least hindered the Lord from shielding them more from those problems.) I’m sorry for misreading the intent of your OP, but your presentation of some specific issues seemed to raise the issue of whether those things (beards, caffeine, prohibition, polygamy, priesthood ban, etc.) were originally from the Lord or not. So maybe we need to make a distinction between “doctrine” and “the Lord’s will”. Would it be reasonable to reword your thesis as: “There have been and currently are things that might be the Lord’s will but are not church doctrine because the saints are unwilling or unable to live up to them” ? To integrate that with a point that DKL brought up: Had the Lord told Brigham Young to ordain worthy blacks to the priesthood (and assuming the church had done so), would that have driven off more members (and kept away more potential converts) than it would have brought in (blacks, but also caucasians who would otherwise have stayed away from the church because of the ban) during those years? IE., would the church have grown faster or slower from 1844 through 1978 had there been no priesthood ban? |
What is more important in the eyes of the Lord? Numbers or doing the right thing? Shouldn’t they go hand in hand anyhow? |
Definitely a viable example.
This wasn’t my intent, but I may have inadvertently editorialized about some of these things — going back over it, it seems I did express my views on caffeine.
Yes and no. The inverse is also true: “There have been and currently are things that might not be the Lord’s will but are church doctrine because the saints think they are the Lord’s will. I don’t really want to get into what those things might be specifically because I don’t think that the ensuing debate would be possible to resolve in a definitive manner. However, do I think that there are such things? Absolutely.
Would the church have grown slower or faster? I haven’t the vaguest idea. My own personal opinion is that the ban did not originate from God in the first place. That said, for the most part it was probably a non-issue from the end of the Missouri days until the mid-twentieth century merely because the incidence of blacks that came into contact with the church was probably fairly low. Many rank-and-file members likely didn’t even know about it. So, for that period of time, it probably would have had little effect one way or another. It wouldn’t have been until the civil rights movement picked up enough and the church started to look at expanding proselyting into Africa, etc., that such a policy would have come to the forefront. At that point, there were decades of tradition (and justifications for it) that the hierarchy had to break with… and entrenched, longstanding hierarchical institutions have a hard time with that sort of thing. Do I think the Lord had a hand in the lifting of the ban in 1978? Unquestionably. Am I convinced that it couldn’t have been lifted earlier? No, not really. David O. McKay and George Albert Smith were both on record as considering it a policy, not a doctrine. However, even as late as McKay’s administration there was still a considerable amount of opposition to the idea among the brethren (Harold B. Lee, among others), but I don’t think there’s any way to know what might have happened had DOM made a serious attempt to end it earlier. However, let me clarify that I don’t think any of this is the Lord’s fault. Neither we nor our leaders are infallible. He let us have our way and we have to deal with the consequences. |
Wasn’t David O. McKay quoted in his biography as saying he went to the Lord asking to have the ban lifted, and the answer was along the lines of “In the future, but not now. Stop asking” ? There are some significant implications in that, if it’s correct. Such as: even if the ban was not originally the Lord’s will, people may not have been ready to have it lifted, or the Lord had some purpose in allowing the ban to stand. |
Yeah, something along those lines, if I remember correctly. However, if it was just a policy, I am not convinced that he needed direct revelatory approval to lift it, necessarily. You can easily interpret the inconclusive answers as the Lord leaving it up to him. (We encourage these sorts of interpretations of our own experiences with prayer and answers all the time.) Perhaps the Lord finally intervened because we were too stubborn / entrenched in tradition to take matters into our own hands. I’m not sure it’s conclusive either way.
Perhaps. Would there have been some awful, cataclysmic schism if someone had tried to end it earlier? Who knows. I prefer to chalk it up to tradition and the fact that our leaders aren’t infallible than try to rationalize divine racism, though. And, let’s assume for a minute that the Lord did deliberately let the ban stand until 1978. His purpose could just as easily have been to punish the church for having it in the first place as anything else. |
Orwell, I just noticed that I’ve not really responded to your post. I’d say that the WoW falls into this category. At least we certainly don’t abide by the text of section 89, which instructs us to drink wine and beer. Yes, beer is a mild barley drink. The distinction between mild drinks and strong drinks is whether they’ve had their alcohol content raised by distillation. I’d say that today section 89 is the basis, or a starting point for our Word of Wisdom, but it certainly isn’t the WoW that we are concerned with. On a much bigger issue there is the whole understanding of the Godhead. We act now as if the Talmage interpretation from 1914 or 1915 was set in stone from the moment of the First Vision. But this is not the case and even Talmage has to resort to inventing divine investiture of authority in his attempt to make his understanding work. |
Good points, arJ, excellent examples of what we’re talking about. |
The attachment that some Mormons have to the United Order perplexes me. There’s this idea that some day, when people are more perfect, it will work. But nobody waxes poetic about unchartered land banks, or seems to believe that they’ll become a prevalent instrument of commerce once the world (or the body of the saints) repents of it’s current wickedness. Botton line: The United Order was just another ill-conceived economic scheme enacted by individuals who were ill-schooled in economics and business, much like the Kirtland Safety society. |
To clear things up for Geoff J, Annegb, and readers at large: adventurer is not another Mormon Mentality permablogger, and she does not appear to be anyone who has commented here before. |
Bookslinger, when I said, “The priesthood was witheld from blacks from 1850 to 1978, because Mormons of that era didn’t have what it takes to stand by the difficult truth that God doesn’t withhold blessings based on earthly lineage or notions of pre-mortal valiance” I intended that to apply to the leadership as well. In the case of the priesthood ban, the leadership was many years behind the membership in the US. In fact, leaders in general behaved despicably towards members who dared question the validity of their repugnantly racist views. As Greg Prince writes at BCC this week:
I’m reminded of the joke that Jesus taught unconditional love, and if you didn’t love unconditionally, then He’ll consign you to Eternal damnation. In any case, it remains an unfortunate fact that direct revelation from God has repeatedly provide a lagging moral indicator. One would be tempted to think that God should know better. |
DKL, yeah, right. Sure you’re not adventurer. Did you say “she” just to throw us off? |
Maybe adventurer os Aaron Cox, posing under a false name, preaching his own special gospel again. |
annegb, I said “she” because as a stylistic matter, I almost always use “she” as the indefinite 3rd person pronoun. Nothing else. |
adventurer sets off my BS-detector too. |
DKL #86, One could certainly argue that the United Order is just as uninspired as its secular counterparts (socialism and communism). But that is a very hard argument to make in Mormonism because we get the idea of the United Order from our canon and it is presented as coming directly from God. If we decide that those were false revelations then we are opening a massive Pandora’s box regarding the rest of our canon don’t we? |
I’ll try again… DKL #86, One could certainly argue that the United Order is just as uninspired as its secular counterparts (socialism and communism). But that is a very hard argument to make in Mormonism because we get the idea of the United Order from our canon and it is presented as coming directly from God. If we decide that those were false revelations then we are opening a massive Pandora’s box regarding the rest of our canon don’t we? |
Geoff J, Joseph also sold shares to the Kirtland Safety Society based on the express promise that God inspired it. I don’t think that casting a cynical eye on the United Order problematizes the canon any more than the fact that many of the revelations dictating procedural matters in the church have been jettisoned through the correlation process based on needs arising purely from organizational complexity (cf. the continued practice in the CoC/RLDS church of canonizing revisions in church procedure), or the de-canonization of the Lectures on Faith with its presumed Rigdonisms, like the binitarian description of the Godhead that obviously barrows from Alexander Campbell’s bitheistic view of God. |
DKL, Well thankfully the Lectures on Faith are not our problem (since they were removed from the canon a long time ago). But dismissing the United Order is a bigger problem. Not only do we have the voice of God extolling it in numerous places in the D&C we also have variations of it appearing in the PoGP in the Enoch story and in 4th Nephi. Further it is closely wed to the Law of Consecration which still plays a central role in part of our liturgy. Trying to excise it is a dangerous game of Jenga. If we assert God never was behind it (in any form) we end up severely undermining Joseph Smith as a reliable prophet. Perhaps it could be extracted but it would be a dicey surgery to say the least. |
There was also a group of people in the early apostolic church who practiced the united order, see Acts 2:44-46 and Acts 4:32, 35, 37. It seems this group didn’t persist as long as the people of Enoch, or as long as that group in the time of Nephi. I don’t think the lectures on faith is decanonized for its unreliability, rather according to our LDS definition it certainly is scripture. If you don’t think so, I’m not sure why it comes up 550 times in searches on lds.org. But not all scripture has to exist as official canon, otherwise we’d be carrying around a suit case of microfilm instead of scriptures. Maybe that’s why the ipad was invented :) I don’t know the exact history around removing lectures on faith from the official printed scriptures, but I’d assume it was in large part based on the fact that not every lecture needs to become canonized for all time. In the early days of the church it was an important element, and it is obviously still important (being referenced 550 times in the recent material on lds.org alone), but that does not mean every discourse or lesson given by a prophet or apostle needs to be added to our books. It’s somewhat strange for someone to disavow it, because it seems a pretty protestant attitude. As if our faith and testimony depends on purging materials which could be interpreted as having some conflict with other scripture. I too raised an eye brow at single verse or two that suggested binitarianism, but it’s hardly the overall point and I place it in context of the lesson which is faith and God and his Son Jesus Christ. Elsewhere it clearly discusses the Holy Spirit as a person without personage, so it would seem the binitarianism you suggest is there is referring to the members of the Godhead with a body. At least that’s my take on it. |
When the Doctrine & Covenants was published, the Lectures on Faith constituted the doctrine portion of it, and the revelations constituted the covenants portion of it. Its decanonization is not our problem, to be sure, but since decanonizing it was not problematic, nor should be the dismissal of other parts of scripture for defective doctrine. There’s no reason to decanonize it, we can just disregard it the same way that we disregard God’s revealed requirement to get a recommend from our bishop when we move to a new ward. The civilization of 4 Nephi was a failed civilization. If it weren’t, it would still be around today. The cycle of stories in the Old Testament, where all bad things and good things that happened are accorded to Israel or Judah’s wickedness or righteousness (respectively) is not historically accurate by our standards of historical scholarship, so there’s no reason to expect the description of the 4 Nephi story to be historically accurate by our standards either. I don’t believe that the story of Enoch is historical or plausible. |
DKL, It would seem that all civilizations are failed civilizations, right up to the current ones today. The only non-failed one we have any evidence for was the city of Enoch, which we can rely on the auhority of the prophets and the written records, but it seems you dismiss that as well. I don’t agree with the claim that the city was mythical and did not exist, but even if one did believe it was merely a parable invented to make a point I’m not sure how you could clame the lessons we learn from it are useless and outdate. There is no idea that someday when the people are more perfect the united order will work. I’ve never heard that discussed. It’s always been under the context of the people need to make themselves more perfect through the working of the united order. Now, we have the law of consecration given to us, which includes what I suppose could be considered lessor variations of the united order (10% tithes as opposed to “surplus”, fast offerings as opposed to caring for the poor so all have things in common acording to their needs and wants, and service which helps others while giving up some of our selfishness) To me, few things could be more important than working toward that process of living the united order. To say that it’s ill conceived might be true on the part of the participants and those who preach it, but not ill conceived by th God who revealed it. We each can and should stirve to live the united order in our own family, and have all things in common, overcome greed and selfishness, be united in righteousness and look upon and treat our family members as they were ourselves. I’m not sure what’s ill conceived about that. |
Even if we assume that Enoch and 4 Nephi were historical civilizations, nothing was really known about how economic systems work until the 18th century, when the Scottish Enlightenment produced Adam Smith. Even today, where economics is a substantially sophisticated social science, economic histories are never uncontroversial, and there’s even significant disagreement among economists about what factors contributed to a certain economic condition — not to mention how those factors brought the condition about. So I read the scriptures that were written 1,500 to 2,700 years ago, and I read their descriptions of economic events, and I think, “This is BS.” The person who’s writing this has no idea what’s going on from an economic point of view. Yet people want to use this as the starting point of a new economic order(!) Jesus says things in the New Testament that are positively idiotic from an economic point of view, like His recommendation to the rich man that he sell everything that he owns and give the proceeds to the poor, which has no long term impact on the livelihood of the poor and serves no purpose whatever except to destroy wealth. I’m not saying that this instruction of Jesus that’s recorded in scripture isn’t valuable from some other point of view, but imagine how crazy it would sound if someone wanted to use it to justify the stance that all rich people should sell all their goods and give the proceeds to the poor. The scriptures taught that lending with interest (used to be known as “usury”) was evil, because the prophets who wrote that scripture had no idea that there was a time value associated with resources (and neither, evidently, did God when He told them to write it). Thus, when ancient prophets say it’s immoral to charge interest, they’re essentially saying that it’s immoral to ask for 100% of the resource that you lent to be repaid; that, itself, is an arguably immoral admonition. Thankfully, nobody treats scriptural injunctions against usury any more seriously than the admonition, “Thou shalt not suffer that a which should live.” But holding everything in common is a great idea?!?!? As far as God’s voice and the United Order: Instructions in God’s voice are not just lagging moral indicators, but they’re also lagging indicators of the development of man’s knowledge of economics as a social science. |
DKL: As far as God’s voice and the United Order: Instructions in God’s voice are not just lagging moral indicators, but they’re also lagging indicators of the development of man’s knowledge of economics as a social science. I think you have a pretty strong argument here. The problem is that it sounds suspiciously like an argument for atheism to me. Or if not atheism then at least Deism. What use is God to us on a practical daily level if he can’t or won’t reveal timely and pertinent and useful information? |
Well said, Orwell, and spot on. If Latter-day Saints could step outside the box even momentarily to get a better perspective of this dynamic, they would be amazed at what they see. We’re not a body of believers following prophetic counsel; we’re a headstrong and intransigent congregation that goes its own way in spite of its prophets. In that respect, we are identical to Saints in every other dispensation, even though we mistakenly convince ourselves that we’re succeeding where they failed. Joseph Smith repeatedly bemoaned the intolerant, closed mindedness of the Saints, and we’ve only built on their foundation in the decades since then. I liken our prophets to the Dutch boy with his finger in the dike: The prophets are so busy trying to overcome our waywardness and hardheartedness of church members that they have time for little else. We merrily go our own way, following our own counsel and cultural traditions. Thanks for shining the light on this touchy issue. |
“which has no long term impact on the livelihood of the poor and serves no purpose whatever except to destroy wealth” Imagine how crazy it would be if all fathers were required to sacrafice their sons? And yet we have one example of a Father actually doing it, of the Son’s own free will and choice, and others being willing to do it. Does that mean we all have to? No. I take the admonition to be willing to give all you have to the poor to be the same. Be absolutely willing to give up everything for our fellow brothers and sisters. Take that feeling and desire and couple it with wisdom, which God also gives and you’re better off I say. Presumably we are all striving to live a kind of Zion & United Order in our families, are we not? |
[...] Latter-day Guy, commenting on Orwell’s post “The Prophet is Dead: Thoughts on the Mormon Culture War” at Mormon Mentality (explaining another commenter’s typo where he said Brigham Young first said blacks couldn’t hold the priesthood in 1952): Joseph Fielding Smith was giving a talk, and all of a sudden his voice began to sound subtly different, within moments even his face had taken on Brigham’s features, but it was the super-quick-growing neckbeard that clinched it… [...] |
[...] original comments on this post can be found here. It is from June, 2010, so naturally the caffeine situation is out of [...] |