What is their disability?

The disabled kids’ parents know their children best. What do they suggest? Are the kids mainstreamed in school? How do they handle the kids at home or in other social situations? Do the kids need an adult guide to sit with them during quorum meetings on Sundays?

The abled kids’ parents might be helped if they were given the opportunity to hear from the disabled kids’ parents about the specific disabilities. What makes it easier for the kids? What makes it harder? What are the specific challenges presented by the disabilities and why is it hard/impossible/not feasible for the disabled kids to “suck it up and behave” in a classroom setting?

The quorum adviser/teacher need to make changes in the classroom situation to meet the needs of each young man. Teacher training is in order, and there’s nothing wrong with seeking the help of a professional. If there aren’t any special ed-type professionals in the ward or stake, certainly the community/internet has resources/guidance.

If the disabled kids are acting up and disrupting the class, is it feasible to bring the young men to their parents? Implement a visual reminder that tracks and rewards good/bad behavior appropriately (name on the board, one check if you’re bad again, two checks and your parents are called)? Is the bishop’s idea to give the parents respite for an hour or two? If that’s the case, then is there another adult who can take over when the boys cause problems.

If your quorum meetings are the last of 3 hours, is there a chance that the block is just too long for these young men? Do issues of sitting still or eating on schedule cause problems? Do they need specific and predictable routines to succeed.

Schools make adjustments all the time so that disabled kids and non-disabled kids can all learn and succeed to the best of their abilities. Church should be no different.

I think the real question is….wait for it…
WHAT WOULD THE SAVOUR DO?

Don’t you think he would just love the three and teach the others what it means and how to BE Christians? It sounds like the parents if the 7 could use the same lesson. How do you think the parents feel who have the three? Don’t you think they know their own kids and are reaching out for some love and help? And out of the seven days they could probably use one or two hours off to get spiritually fed themselves. Don’t you all really think this???

“Now since we are in the bloggernaccle we are going to solve this problem right here in this post.”

I just have to say how totally awesome that statement is.

“the other boys have to be actively involved in whatever approach is chosen still stands.”

I sustain LL’s comment.

Let’s be careful not to demonize the 7 parents. I do think that there is a real concern (and there should be) over the experience the abled children are having. We pay a lot of lip service in the Church as to how the programs are there to supplement/complement the family’s efforts and the needs of the 7 abled youth do need to be accounted for. Remember, the shepherd didn’t marshal all of his resources into finding the 1 lost sheep until he knew that the other 99 were already safe (at least, that’s my reading).

Having had a disabled brother myself, you simply cannot assume that the abled children will suck it up and accept it.

I generally agree with #1 and #4, but it’s hard when we don’t know any specifics.

I think making separate classes is a bad idea, but I’m not sure what approach would work. I do like the idea of talking to the parents and teachers about what has worked for the three disabled kids in the past. Maybe they can figure something out.

Jesus’s behavior is a poor example in this situation — as it is in most of them. Sure, He forgave the adulteress, but He spent the rest of His ministry peddling cheap aphorisms, healing people, and flipping out and spewing vituperative nonsense at practicing Jews. So unless you want to heal the disabled kids, or unless you’re predisposed to inundating the parents with cheap moralisms or verbally abusing them, being Chrislike in this instance is a pretty bad idea.

My solution: Set up a 2nd quorum, with it’s own leadership and instruction.

I too would like more information on the nature of the disabilities. Just behavioral? Physical components? Comprehension issues?

If I were in charge of this quorum, I would first meet with the Bishop, other YM instructors, and parents. I would like the parents to suggest strategies for instructing their children. I would also ask them what accommodations are included in their kids’ 504 and IEP plans at school and try to mirror those. I would try to develop a standard of instruction and behavior for the ir kids and ask them at what point they would like to be alerted of behavior issues (this varies widely).

If I were the parent of a child I could reasonably predict was going to cause concern, I would have this kind of a meeting with my childs’ Church teacher every time that person changed. I would also ask for as much consistency as possible when it comes to who is teaching my child and how. I would also specifically alert the YM leadership and the Bishop whenever an adult in the ward had a successful experience with my child, hoping that would influence the bishop to keep that person in my child’s realm, and as positive reinforcement/appreciation–teachers/leaders need to know what works and that their efforts have been successful (sometimes it is hard to know). Depending on the nature of my child’s disability, I would feel comfortable having my child in a separate class for instruction. I would also suggest that an adult specifically called as a minder can be very useful, whether 1:1 or 1:3. A calm figure who can redirect behavior, quietly remind the child of appropriate behavior, or even take him for a walk through the halls and back to class to release some energy can be enormously helpful.

If I were the parent of someone in the quorum with disruptive students. Of course, I would focus on Christ-like behavior, loving everyone, tolerating differences, yada yada. But I would also want to emphasize that Church is not all about them and making it a good experience for them as an individual. I would try to figure out a way that my child could reach out to disruptive students and try to help the situation. My sister was a good friend to a YM her age who rattled most everyone in the ward and she had a very positive influence on him and his behavior at Church and in Seminary–she gave him appropriate attention, made eye contact to communicate that he should tone it down, and made jokes to diffuse tension or redirect class attention. (That kid is like a different person today–medication, age, maturity, but also not feeling like a total mess-up in every aspect of his life, [which is what he had come to feel like] all helped). Anyway–I would try to help my kid be helpful. Of course, it would be most effective if I had tried to help him learn those things long before this situation came about. For me, having him leave class would not be an option. Frankly, he is not in YM class to gain knowledge (we can do that homestudy if he really needs something), he is there to learn how to love and serve and function in a group.

Do these YM also have issues in SS? Have they had issues in Primary? How were those issues addressed?

#1, In this case 2-3 boys are beyond attempts by anybody to modify their behavior to any real degree.

#2, Disabled enough that they are essentially toddlers in large bodies. 2-3 are unbaptized and unordained. They will never leave their parents houses, hold a job or get married.

#3, All kinds of solutions have been tried. 2-3 boys have an adult leader assigned just them. Nothing helps

#4, The parents are totally against the idea of taking the disabled kids out of class. Period. They want the other boys to learn Christlike attributes from their kids. I think the disabled kids parents here actually have enough political power in our ward to get their way almost no matter what. Kids are not mainstreamed in school.

This is really a conundrum. I am glad I am not the bishop.

I don’t think attending a totally out of control class is a good way to “learn Christlike attributes”.

I think it is a somewhat important point that the two most disruptive kids come from the same family.

This is a great thread- the first thing I thought of was this quote from Elder Packer:

Now, in all of this there must be balance, for the handicapped have responsibility to work out their own salvation. The nearer the normal patterns of conduct and discipline apply to the handicapped, the happier they will be.

From his address The Moving of the Water. That talk and about a few others from General Conference may be helpful as the bishop considers the best course to take.

As was mentioned above, there are are few resources on LDS.org on managing behavior, but in this situation I think it is essential that someone involved in the situation bring in someone with some real expertise in this area. While the parents of any of the children may be too involved in the situation to be that resource, there will likely be someone in the ward, stake or community who could offer some help.

Most states have a parent center for parents of children with disabilities that would know of local resources that could be of assistance in this kind of situation.

I have a taught a number of church classes of youth with significant disabilities and there is often no easy answer, but almost always some type of solution that in between full inclusion and complete segregation. While the Christlike thing certainly may be a renewed effort of love and acceptance, it may also be setting up a separate environment where one or more of those young men with disabilities can receive instruction and fellowship in a more structured environment.

I’ve heard that 90% of inspiration is good information and unfortunately it can be difficult to expect priesthood leaders to know everything they need to on their own in order to make these kinds of judgments. God bless the bishop trying to work through the situation.

Wade (#6): I think the real question is….wait for it… WHAT WOULD THE SAVOUR DO?

What a great idea — just heal them completely like Jesus would have. That ought to solve the problems. Case closed!

Sometimes you can cut the baby in half. Why not alternate weeks? Have a separate class one week and be all together the next.

Since we’re talking about teenagers (not little kids), I think the seven non-handicapped kids can (and should) be part of the solution. Instead of seeing it as the adults’ attention being unfairly divided among the children, see it as an opportunity for the young men to learn about compassion and service.

If you give teenagers responsibilities and high expectations, they so often step up to the plate. I would take each of the seven aside individually and talk to them about the situation — discuss with them the particulars of each of the three disabled kids. Show them educational materials on how to deal with the particular handicaps and don’t let it be a taboo.

Some of the boys take an attitude of “I just don’t want to deal with their problems,” and those guys shouldn’t be pressured further. But of the seven, some of them will be willing and able to assist the other boys if they get the idea that people are counting on them. Obviously, they won’t be able to do what trained professionals can do, but their compassion can make a difference. Even twelve-year-olds, but especially older teens. Talk to them, listen to them, and treat them like grown-ups — you will often be surprised by how well they respond. They’re at an age where many want the opportunity to show you that they’re ready for grown-up roles.

Another thing to consider is how long has this been going on. Is it a new thing, or have these 7 boys been plagued with horrible classes year after year with teachers and assistants that are unable to create any sort of positive environment for these boys. Many of you seem to assume that these boys have had 12-16 years of awesome church experiences so they should be able to put up with a couple years of difficult stuff and just learn service from this experience.
I definitely want more details.

Well, I have a daughter with Tourettes. When the kids at school engaged in some really nasty behavior towards her we let it slide. Her neuro and the neuropsych both told us our goal should be to get her to an older age without too much trauma. Sometimes you just have to understand that you are going to annoy the heck out of other people.

I liked seeing I think that disabled children ought to be cared for by their parents or professionals. and So unless you want to heal the disabled kids, or unless you’re predisposed to inundating the parents with cheap moralisms or verbally abusing them together.

Really, to say more, I’d usually want to know what disabilities the kids have, what medications, social learning and training they’ve been through (with my daughter 95% of our expenditures have been out of network or out of coverage) and how much time the parents spend on them and on teaching them in classes. Many disabilities do much better in small groups or with a parent helping to teach. On the other hand, if Church is the only respite the parents get, they may well go crazy too if they do not have a break once a week at Church.

You’ve already pointed out that the kids are not mainstreamed at school, are not ordained and part of the quorum, and are Disabled enough that they are essentially toddlers in large bodies. 2-3 are unbaptized and unordained. They will never leave their parents houses, hold a job or get married.

queuno makes excellent points. better than I could have.

This is a situation well beyond one that can be clearly addressed in a short blog post.

Until recently, we’ve had a Down Syndrome girl in our ward primary and then YWs. Things went well. Leaders had to make accomodations to include her in positive ways, but my children never said a negative word about it.
We had a bi-polar(?) boy in primary who was very disruptive. Leaders and the parent did their best to minimize the impact on the other children. I appreciate that.
Our ward does baptisms on an individual basis. However, one of my children had their 8th birthday the day before that boy’s sibling. I felt bad, but when they suggested that the baptisms be combined I said no, even though I felt bad for those who would be required to attend 2 different baptisms. I thought it was better for my son to have a baptism where the risk of scary profanity and screaming during his ceremony was present. I think once leaders discussed it (and remembered that boy’s problems during his own baptism, they went with it my way). During that siblings baptism (I don’t know if the older brother was there), the only drama I heard about was the mother being extremely upset that the dad brought his live-in secret girlfriend and hallway conversations about that. I”m happy to have avoided that at my son’s baptism too.
As a parent, you should look for ways to advocate for your child….both your disabled and non-disabled children. Luckily, I think it is good to teach your children about the good of the whole group and compassion for others, as well as what you can get for yourself or your own. With my baptism situation, there wasn’t some sort of normal group baptism that we were trying to get changed. The norm WAS individual baptisms, which helped our situation come out the way we hoped.

If the boys aren’t capable of being mainstreamed at school, then I would think they aren’t capable of being mainstreamed at church. I think whatever errors are made in mainstreaming the handicapped at schools are usually made when some kids go to school but actually shouldn’t, not in keeping them away when they could go to school.

Don’t forget that the third boy, the one with Asperger’s is also a victim here as much as the “normal” kids in the class. He’s being treated like he’s developmentally disabled (ie, mentally retarded) when he’s not, just by being lumped in with the other two. Guilt by association. Poor kid probably thinks that everyone else thinks he’s “retarded”, and therefore he might think that he actually is.

Asperger’s is an “emotional retardation”, and is not a matter of low IQ. Statistically, he has a greater chance at being higher than average IQ. He _is_ capable of social/emotional learning, but is just slower at it. Asperger’s people don’t learn social/emotional skills at an intuitive level or just “absorb” them like most people. It’s an acquired skill for them, like learning to play the piano. Things have to be specifically taught and practiced.

Several good ideas are in previous comments, such as separate clasess for the 3. But create a separate class just for the Asperger’s boy, or mainstream him. Please don’t lump him in with the other 2. It would be as bad as treating a physically handicapped person as if they were mentally (IQ) handicapped. You’d be dooming him to a lifetime of low self-image and likely deluding him into thinking he _can’t_ learn instead of just learning social/emotional things _differently_.

Bookslinger, great point. From the info I’ve heard so far, if I were in charge I would lean towards a combined intro in the quorum and then a separate class for the 7 and the Asperger’s teen. In that separate class, I would look for ways to have them presenting a lesson or a game or something to the other class on a monthly (or take turns weekly in the intro portion) basis.

Thanks for the comments all. I think the wisdom of the bloggernaccle has shined thru!!:)

The boy with Aspergers is mainstreamed at church and mostly mainstreamed at school. I cannot evision a scenario where he is not in quorum and activities 100%.

The other 2 are a totally diferent situation. I think that #40 probably handles it about right. The other 2 boys have A: Downs. Not potty trained B. A stroke prior to birth. He is very very disabled mentally and partially paralyzed.

The class is a Deacons quorum. I think this issue will probably get more critical in Teachers quorum with resentment building up among the other boys.

Whoa. I’m traumatized.

Palad,

Thanks for the research. Her comment is now history.

I converted her web page to a pdf, if anybody’s interested. :D It was just too weird to pass up.