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| Wednesday, June 19, 2013 |
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- A Bird's Eye View
- A Motley Vision
- Adventures in Mormonism
- Blognitive Dissonance
- Book of Mormon Blog
- By Common Consent
- Ethesis
- Face of the Other
- Faith Promoting Rumor
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- Flooding the Earth With the Book of Mormon
- Golden Road to Samarqand
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- Old Testament Blog
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I have a few thoughts as an ex-Catholic/LDS convert of 18 years…. I agree that as members of the Church we have a responsibility to show true Christlike compassion and friendship with those not of our faith. What I take issue with is the idea (not expressed explicitly here, but inferred–daily–around the Bloggernacle) that somehow, ultimately, there’s no meaningful difference between the Lord’s Church and other religious organizations since “we’re all God’s children”. Salvation matters, and salvation is — in part — a function of membership in, and faithfulness to, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Else, what’s the point? Frankly, this truth is not expressed often enough in the Bloggernacle. And if some guilt or personal issues make LDS bloggers engage in navel-gazing to the point of being ashamed of this Church, it’s history, doctrines or practices…well, where I come from that’s what we call a “you problem”. And as far as this Church not being “perfect” as far as abuses in its history go — Mountain Meadows doesn’t hold a candle to the Inquisition. Of course there is room for improvement; but we should be proud of being part of this Church. Again, this isn’t necessarily a response to anything I found particularly objectionable in this post — I’ve been lurking around the Bloggernacle for a few months, now, and I find a great deal of what I read by members of the Church in LDS blogs to be pretty disturbing. |
I think you make a good point. A lot of my theories come from experiencing life in predominantly Mormon society and the exclusion that happens when you detour from the norm. Maybe a lot of Mormon bloggers feel some resentment for being excluded. This is sociological rather than religious and I’ve read about this happening in other communities with a predominant religious influence. What you wrote brought to mind the Ensign article about having confidence in defending the faith. Thanks for your comment. |
arlene, It should be noted that you can’t just copy and paste an entire article from a subscription only site without permission from that site. They could conceivably come after you for this. |
Anne, Thanks. I think some of the disconnect I feel from LDS bloggers may come from the fact that many writers in the Bloggernacle are writing from a perspective of being in an LDS majority in their local area, and blogging gives an opportunity to vent when they’re feeling out of sync with the locals. I live in a place where members of the Church are in a *distinct* minority, and are regularly subject to a rather insidious kind of soft bigotry. Think of the treatment Mitt Romney got during his campaign, but in a small town. Perhaps in these circumstances the “tribal mentality” causes me (and others) to look past some of the warts on LDS culture. I was in a Rotary meeting recently when some of the locals were going on and on about how wonderful our little town was, how welcoming, family-friendly, etc…. All I could muster under my breath was “sure, if you’re a Methodist”. In all, I would *love* to live in an area where there were more members of the Church — enough to have meaningful social/professional interactions with on a daily basis. I don’t know, I kind of picture Zion to be largely like that. I’m enough of a realist to realize that such a situation presents a different set of challenges, but people who feel “out of the mainstream” in Utah should realize that the grass isn’t always greener. |
Oh, okay, good to know, thanks Daniel. I thought about it after I posted and texted DKL asking about that, but hadn’t gotten a response yet. Check out how I did it now. Hope that keeps me out of jail. Solicitor, I think your last sentence speaks to me because I’m a grass is always greener kind of girl which gets me into no end of trouble. I have no doubt that if I lived where you lived I’d be telling people off all over the place for opposite reasons than how I do now. Good food for thought. |
Being a native son of a small, Southern Utah town, it was hard for me to acclimate to living “out in the mission field” as it is euphemistically referred to in Utah LDS culture. My wife and I moved from Utah to Illinois two years after we got married in the St. George temple. She’s from Illinois, so she jokes about being the Babylonian Jezebel who dragged a Mormon boy out of his cocoon into the cold, evil world. But even though she’s virtuous in every way, I agree that I was in a cocoon all those years. It has taken me almost a decade to realize that, in a way, the mission field has its advantages over being a “Utah Mormon” all of one’s life. I’m glad for the experiences I’ve had that have taught me that it is important to avoid the apathy which sometimes comes with being surrounded with people who believe exactly like you do and to make the effort to live one’s faith despite a worldly atmosphere. Even though I haven’t sought temptation or anythign, I’ve grown spiritually stronger because of the fact that anyone, at any point, who finds out I’m LDS will immediately form their first impression based on my history with them. I’d better make it a good one. There are people of other faiths here who, even though they’ve not received the benefits of having the fullness of the Gospel and the corrected doctrines, are still living the most honorable lives and are truly disciples of Christ. Who am I to say they’re not going to be given every benefit of every doubt on judgment day? Not that I wouldn’t move back to Utah. I would, if I could find steady employment in the manner I’ve become accustomed to. I absolutely love Southern Utah. And I love the comfort that comes with being surrounded by other members of the Church so that I don’t have to always explain why, when I meet a co-worker after work for “a beer” or “for coffee”, I’m only drinking water. But there is a certain amount of irony in the feelings I’ve developed for Utah. It’s as if “the mission field” is reversed. I want to go back and tell people, “Hey, while it’s great to be LDS in Utah, you wouldn’t believe the blessings of being LDS where people barely know what that is!” I’m not sure such a statement wouldn’t be met with a blank stare, but I have to say it’s true. It would be hard not to then launch into a diatribe about how everyone should move away from Utah for a couple of years just to appreciate the whole of God’s creations and His purposes for them. Just my 2 cents. :) |
I think there are pros and cons to living in an area that is predominantly Mormon and one that is not. Growing up on the east coast in an area where a lot of former Utah and Idaho members would come out to live I was often told that it was easier to live your faith away from these areas. They told me that being around people with different beliefs and lifestyles helped keep them better grounded in their own, in addition to giving them more understanding of the challenges that people of other faiths and beliefs face. annegb – I couldn’t agree more with this post. I think we have a lot common ground with Catholics. |
Thanks, Rob. Where are you from? One thing that strikes me is when I go to Nevada and you see people smoking all over the place with no sense of shame. I grew up primarily in Nevada but in Utah you just don’t see people smoking en masse. I’m non-judgemental about smokers, don’t get me wrong, but you’re right about the cocoon aspect. I think I need to be more appreciative and less judgemental about living in Utah. Because there are definitely benefits. Because I’m ever the iconoclast, I’m pretty sure if I lived in a place where Mormons were a minority, I’d be telling people to go to hell left and right and defending the faith. My fellow Mormons would probably wish I’d go back to Utah. :) I have wondered if my faith would be more solid if I lives in a place where I had to defend it. As far as my assertion about Catholicism and your statement,BRP, I was thinking the “ideal” church as opposed to the “true” church would be a combination of all the churches. Not so much in core beliefs (although my study showed that the basic core beliefs, such as faith in Christ, are pretty universal)but in expression and ways of worship. I’d like to see more rhythm and blues in Sacrament. |
Maybe it’s because I had experience in evangelical/pentecostal churches as a youth, but I think there’s a lot of overlap between what those churches believe and the LDS church. I visited a good number of mainstream protestant churches back then, too, and I’d have to give the nod to the evs/pents being the closest doctrinally. |
If you think that there are strong parallels between the LDS and Catholics, I strongly encourage you to investigate Orthodoxy. The similarities between the LDS and the Orthodox are even greater, and quite surprising. |
Book, I attended many different churches as well, the Pentecostal, too. What did you find in their doctrine that was similar? In the study I did, the Catholic written beliefs parallel ours in many ways. Of course, my study was cursory. Corey, what do you mean by Orthodoxy? |
Nicely said Corey. |
By “Orthodox” I mean what is commonly referred to in this country and in the west as “Eastern” Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy believes itself to be the original apostolic church that the Roman church separated from. Orthodox beliefs and practices go back much farther in history than what one commonly finds in the Roman church today. |
annegb: The main overlaps, I think, are personal revelation and gifts of the Spirit. Many Evs/Pents teach that one should constantly “walk in/by the Spirit”, which is what we mean when we say that we should live so as to have the Holy Ghost as our constant companion. |
annegb, I think that for many years we had have set up the Catholic church as an enemy. A sort of straw man that we use to tout the superiority of our practices. This sort or argument pervades our culture, and comes up frequently SS and PH discussions. The Great Apostasy and Mormon Doctrine are big sources of this. There is even some anti-Catholic discourse in President Eyring’s famous Parable of the Pickle. I think it shows real progress for us to show support for other communities of faith in our area. We don’t have to endorse all their doctrines to be friends and have some mutual respect. |
Corey, I know next to nothing about about Eastern Othodox. I have a very good friend who’s a Russian Orthodox monk, but we haven’t talked a lot about their doctrine. We discussed life and the way God works. He put me onto Brother Lawrence and Teresa of Avila. I will try to educate myself more but I’m likely to forget all about it. Book, I’ve thought about the way they also bear testimony, yeah. But I wasn’t able to find a delineated doctrine. I didn’t speak to anyone representing their religion—I think it was Assembly of God and another evangelist church–it was a small church but I don’t know what actual national congregation it was. I can”t remember–it wasn’t my focus at the time. ARJ, this is what I’m saying. This is what But you know, I think overall, we’re more tolerant as a country. Because I recall quite a bit of polarity when I was growing up. A lot of criticism from Pentecostals of my decision to be baptized. And a lot of condemnation of Catholicism in our meetings. It’s not ideal, but it’s a lot better now as far as opening our arms to the validity of other faiths. |
I haven’t heard The Great Apostasy quoted in a Church meeting in maybe 25 years, though, and it’s going on maybe 10 years for Mormon (Un)doctrine (and the member who cited it was prompted shouted down). I think if you were to walk into the average, standard manual-using ward in 2010 without any knowledge of previous Mormon teaching history, you wouldn’t find any *specific* Church-bashing going on (maybe some oblique references to the Baptists and the nondenominational superchurches). |
Mormon Doctrine is still quoted in the Aaronic Priesthood lesson manuals. I heard a rumor that they’re being revised. |
queuno, So your point is that if you walked into a ward with no knowledge of previous materials that you wouldn’t be able to spot the influence of said materials? I hear veiled things said all the time, and still hear outright comparisons and declarations from time to time. My impression is that this was even more common in the mission field. I’m sure that you are familiar with the term Grande Apostasia applied to certain buildings, right? |
The Apostasy is still taught in lesson 16 of Gospel Principles. And as far as I know, it’s still part of the missionary discussions. Is the change that you guys are refering to the fact that no particular church is now identified as “the great and abominable” or “the church of the devil”? |
arJ – If I had NO knowledge of previous materials, I probably couldn’t detect anything. What I’m saying is that I *do* have a knowledge of these previous materials, and having that, I haven’t seen overt references to them in some time. I admit to not spending much time in Utah wards since BYU, but things were pretty tame when I was at BYU (maybe because we were pretty aggressive in my wards — I served in SS presidencies and EQ presidencies and we went to great lengths to get people to stick to the material). If by “the mission field”, you mean actual missions – there was a lot of “Missionary Pal” stuff thrown around my mission. If you mean “the areas outside the Zion Curtain”, then no, I haven’t heard much of any reference in places like Ohio, CA, TX, PA, etc… I haven’t heard “grande apostosia” in a Church meeting since the last time I served in a Spanish-speaking unit, which was the mission field, and I was the branch president… What I hear most of these days are thinly veiled references to Glenn Beck (and by extension, Skousen). But my ward is pretty aggressive, as well. The last 2 guys who brought in outside references were released the next month from EQ teaching (they were pretty dumb about not hiding the references very well). Do the anti-Catholic sentiments exist? Maybe, but I haven’t heard them in Texas. In North Texas, we’re all more concerned with the Baptists and their football game prayin’ than we are with the Catholics. In fact, the Catholics and the Mormons have pretty good relationships in the towns that I’ve seen (the local Catholic Church is right across from our meetinghouse and they are very willing to come park in our lot when theirs fills up), and it’s the Baptists that want to tar-and-feather us these days. But you don’t hear anyone bashing Baptists in lessons, just those eeeevul Dem’crats. As if the Democratic Party was an actual religion… I was in a ward in South Texas over Christmas and the fire-and-brimstone LDS GD teacher was hell-bent on exposing Harry Reid’s evil ways than any previous pope. |
One step forward two steps back? |
