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| Saturday, May 25, 2013 |
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So the analysis compares “Living in Utah” versus “All Other States”. Boy, I’m glad to know that California Mormons are just like Ohio Mormons and North Texas Mormons… |
I think that there’s still a lot of remnants of “Ezra Taft Benson was a Republican, and my bishop is a Republican, and my stake president is a Republican” that causes people to think, “Gosh, I should be a Republican” (although Benson stopped talking about politics when he became the president of the Church). Roe-v-Wade and Prop 8 probably feed into some of this mindset (incorrectly, I think). Although, I think it’s interesting how the Saints globally are *significantly* less conservative than they are here. In Chile, something like 70% of the Church membership voted for Batchelet (I heard this from Chileans I know, so the source is probably flawed) — this would make them center-left-to-left in the context of the US. I also think it’s dangerous to basically throw out non-church attending maybe-single no kids members who still self-identify as a member… Having said all this, our new stake president is a Bain guy. I haven’t looked at his political donations, but I could probably assume he’s a Romney guy. |
I wonder how the numbers would look if you compared Mormon Corridor Mormons (and not just Utah) to the rest of the U.S. I think the Mormons in Eastern Idaho are, if anything, going to be more conservative than the Mormons in Utah, and given the large number of Mormons in places like Eastern Idaho, I’m sure that skews numbers elsewhere outside of Utah. Grouping all Mormons into “Utah” and “Outside of Utah” won’t do a decent job of showing us what’s going on outside the Mormon corridor region. Looking at data from state-to-state would be far more interesting. The members I knew while living on the West Coast and even in a conservative city in the Midwest tend to be much more liberal on average than the Mormons in Utah suburbia and Idaho Falls. Of course, as you go international, they become even more liberal. |
I think that it comes down to a few simple issues – abortion and homosexuality. When I lived in Utah, it seemed that everyone’s votes came down to those issues. When Gunn McKay and Wayne Owens were running, people in my ward (note my family were one of two Democratic families in the ward) were saying that these men must have apostatized or they would not be running on the abortion/homosexual ticket. Anecdotal I know, but likely pretty close to the truth as Queuno lays it out… |
Queuno, You think its social pressure? I guess that is a third answer. I was thinking demographics or theology mostly. |
My impression is that American church members are about two steps to the right of the prevailing political opinion in their local area. Thus, the membership in Prince Georges County, Maryland was distinctly to the left of my current ward, which is located in one of the most Republican voting districts in Virginia. Visits to Ithaca NY and Belmont MA, liberal bastions both, supported my hypothesis. The only exception has been Santa Monica CA, which was by far the most rabidly right-wing ward I have lived in (but that was in 1972, before Santa Monica became a “People’s Republic”). |
Tim, I have never lived in Utah and have found in my anecdotal exp outside the corridor that active LDS outside Utah are reliably conservative like Utah folks. There are also lots and lots of Utah/Idaho natives in the wards outside of Utah of course. There are occasional outliers. Wards in highly liberal college towns tend to be more liberal then the average LDS ward. |
I think the commenter was probably referring to the recent Pew Forum study, which found that, while as a whole, Mormons are more conservative than the rest of the country, those outside the “Western Region” seem to be less so than those in the west, who are less so than those in Utah. http://pewforum.org/Christian/Mormon/A-Portrait-of-Mormons-in-the-US–Social-and-Political-Views.aspx |
The Pew report also noted that those Mormons who have attended college are more likely to be conservative than those who haven’t. I wonder if this has to do with being challenged politically at college, then deciding that the liberals they were exposed to in college are really just a hop, skip, and jump away from Sodom and Gomorrah. (Rather than thinking, “While I disagree with this person’s lifestyle, they make some valid points.”) I know I had some similar thoughts during my first couple of years at college. |
My guess is that the moral issues of abortion, gay marriage, etc. have a lot to do with it. |
From the article mentioned in comment 8: Looks like a pretty big difference to me. I wonder if the difference would be even larger if you included the West Coast states with the “other regions” group instead of the “western region” group. |
I think that the normal LDS social norming makes a lot of people who would be otherwise non-voter apolitical into Republicans. (And I think we overstate the moral issues of abortion, given that the Church is actually to the left of the Republican Party on abortion. Ask the average LDS person their stance on abortion and it matches the Church’s, meaning, they aren’t in line with the GOP.) |
I’m not sure what to think of the college differences. I can definitely state that I know a huge number of members in their late 20′s and early 30′s who group up in very conservative homes in Utah, went on missions and to college (many to BYU), and came out either moderate or liberal. I’ve also noted in my current ward that many converts (almost all of who do not have college educations) tend to be more liberal than the members who are either from Utah or have parents from Utah. Perhaps that affects the college education/conservative numbers statistics. |
One other point – the Church leadership goes to great lengths to convince members that they should look at the issues, consider the candidates, etc. And to the average member in the US, that translates to “Uh, I need to vote straight-ticket Republican”. I’m fond of saying in meetings that anyone who votes straight-ticket anything should lose their right to vote. |
bbell, Maybe we should also look at the cultural shift that occurred at BYU in the 60s. Some of it was no doubt a reaction to hippies and the sexual revolution, but I also think Wilkinson’s policies had a lot to do with it. He was insanely conservative, and the spy ring he set up (and then later lied about) had the effect of turning the campus and faculty sharply to the right. Before his administration the faculty was split roughly 50/50 Democrat and Republican. Then he started calling professors into his office and threatening their jobs because he’d heard from his spies that the profs had said something good about the U.N., and many of the good ones decided that they didn’t need the grief. We’ve been stuck with the craziness ever since, and a kid who attends there will have 9 out of 10 teachers be conservative. Granted, BYU isn’t the church, but the graduates from the 60s and 70s are leaders in our wards and stakes now, and the influence of BYU is felt in every corner of the American church. It is also worth mentioning that this mostly a U.S. phenomenon. LDS people in Canada and Great Britain, for example, are more evenly distributed along the spectrum. This indicates to me that it has less to do with the church or its teachings, but more with some kind of pathology in U.S. politics. |
I think it also has to do with residential and social patterns. I live in an inner city ward (and have for 30 years) and we are extremely politically diverse, running from a real-live self-described Socialist to Glen Beck’s biggest fan, and a pretty fair smattering in between. This makes for a great ward because we are all sensitive enough to ignore completely political issues because no assumptions can be safely made. It’s great. We actually have church. However, in the suburban end of our stake, in communities with a heavy preponderance of conservative voters, (surprise!) we have an overwhelming preponderance of conservative Mormons. Of course, raw numbers wise, there are lots more of them out there than there are of us in here. But the patterns tend to take the shape of religiously irrelevant patterns. The church doesn’t have all that much to do with it. At least here. |
It’s safe to say that the Ezra Taft Benson is a major reason why American Mormons tend more conservative. It’s also safe to say that Barack Obama is a major reason why Americans in general are tending more conservative. In this capacity at least, I think it’s fair to say that Barack Obama is Ezra Taft Benson for the 21st Century. |
DKL – Ezra Taft Benson was one of the most politically active general authorities in his day, but so was Hugh B. Brown. While it is clear that ETB won that culture war, members still had plenty of major figures like Brown and N. Eldon Tanner to look to who clearly were more liberal. I’d say the membership is more consistently conservative now, when church leaders try much harder to maintain political neutrality, than back then when leaders were more outspoken on such issues. I will agree with you that Obama seems to be making conservatives out of us all. |
Yep, I’m with Devyn S. It’s abortion and gay marriage. I remember discussing the last presidential election with a relative and having him express shock that I would even CONSIDER voting for Obama: “The man supported laws allowing for late term partial birth abortions. That’s evil. Anybody who could support that is evil. Period.” End of discussion. |
So you have a class of voters who are willing to let the country (potentially) go to hell over two issues that will *never* work out in their favor. Lovely. (Meaning, they could love everything about the other party and hate everything about their party but vote for it because of abortion and gay marriage. And this goes for people in both parties). |
“It’s abortion and gay marriage.” I don’t buy it. This suggests that Democrats could denounce pro-choice and pro-gay marriage positions tomorrow and scores of Mormon voters would exhale and start changing parties? I think this sentiment is simply an attempt to smear anyone who has ideological differences with the current Democratic platform as a incurious retrograde. There are some very legitimate reasons to be unhappy with the direction of the current Democratic majority without ever having to discuss abortion or gay marriage. |
I don’t buy it. This suggests that Democrats could denounce pro-choice and pro-gay marriage positions tomorrow and scores of Mormon voters would exhale and start changing parties? Exactly. They’d just find some other issue, like release-time seminary. |
The only study of which I am aware that includes Mormon political attitudes outside the U.S. is Jeffrey C. Fox’s Latter-day Political Views (New York 2006), which was reviewed in Journal of Mormon History, Winter 2010, pp. 230-34. I have not seen or read the book, but the review states that Fox’s field work in the U.S., Canada and Mexico. He concluded (shockingly)that Mormons are more conservative that the communities in which they live. Non-white Mormons are significantly less conservative that white Mormons but more conservative than their non-white non-Mormon counterparts. Fox mentioned that while Canadian Mormons are more conservative than Canadians generally, they really like their health care system. “In fact, most of the Canadian respondents argue that the inequalities in the American system violated their sense of justice and morality. Many called the American system ‘immoral’.” Page 143. |
I live in a large city w/ a private, liberal university (Duke) & 10 miles from a public, liberal university (UNC-Chapel Hill). Yet the members of most of the wards are FOX watching, rabid Republicans who are still sure Obama is Muslim & the Anti-Christ, (the actual one from the Bible, not just a dislike of him). We also have many grad students from UT & other western states & they seem to be even MORE conservative than my fellowq natives. Didn’t know that was possible. I think waaaay too many mbrs don’t question teachings or culture esp. & just ‘go along to get along’ w/ the majority. I’m an active mbr, but am a proud liberal product of my liberal city. I truly believe Heavenly Father is a LOT more tolerant & loving god than Republicans can imagine. |
It’s also partly Glenn Beck’s fault. |
20 – MAC – The Dems will never renounce gay marriage, but the reality is that the Conservative call of Gays, Guns, and God resonates with Mormons. I am not a rabid liberal nor am I a rabid conservative, but feel both sides are equally flawed and dysfunctional or functional in their own interesting ways. |
Its a bizzare groupthink- partly equating wealth with righteousness which produces so many Mormon Republicans, even if it means voting against their own self-intrests. Seriously, how many member of you ward benifit from taxcuts for the wealthy? We have unempoloyed people in our ward- do they know that Republican leadership and Beck think they are too lazy to find a job and shouldn’t receive unemployment benifits? Oh the irony. |
“Its a bizzare groupthink” Spare me scw. I bet you $1 that any instances of groupthink you might identify in the Church would pale in comparison to institutionalized groupthink that is entrenched in most “studies” departments in American universities. This silly accusation of voting against one’s interest is a lame attempt to paint your ideological opponents as too dim to participate in democracy. If it is the best argument you can come up with to discredit those who you disagree with you’re not going to convince many thinking people to join your team. The fact is that the recently implemented, enlightened fiscal policies have failed spectacularly and the current Democratic majority is not intellectually ductile enough to acknowledge the reasons. Additionally, the fact that you are parroting left wing talking points about “Bush tax cuts” suggests that there may be some groupthink occurring in your immediate vicinity that you haven’t considered. From the Washington Post - |
Gee, MAC, if the question is what’s making Mormons have such a strong conservative bent, you must be arguing it’s because we’re more intelligent than other people. I doubt that. I just think we’re more pious, generally. The church has only taken a few stands, and abortion and gay marriage are two of them, so when in doubt, Mormons will go conservative. Another factor contributing to Mormon conservatism is that culturally we perceive ourselves to be a persecuted people, so if Republicans are big business and Democrats are big government, we’d tend away from big government because it gives society more power to persecute us. I think that’s more of an unconscious sentiment than a conscious one, but I think it’s there nonetheless. |
Interestingly the shift to the “right” (as the U.S. defines it) is a relatively recent one. Up until President Kennedy Utah just voted with the winner of the presidential elections with two exceptions. I think there are two factors at play here: I have always been viewed as an outlier wherever I have lived (Utah, California, and Wisconsin) as I am a 5th generation Utahan and Church member, active in the church (current temple recommend and many and various ward and stake level callings), and a multi-generational Democrat as well. I think it comes down to a question of individuality versus helping one another; the Church’s membership and leadership fluctuates between emphasizing these two factors, but the fluctuation is very slow. |
Martin,
I think if a larger percentage of the membership was still made up of the descendants of pioneers this would be a easier argument to make. The problem I have is that so many people want to argue that there are structural obstacles to Mormons voting liberal, be it abortion, gay marriage, whatever and hence a conservative bent is nothing more than a path-of-least resistance and that if they actually thought about it their natural place is on the Left. To me this is head-in-the-sand party-ism that reflects an inability to defend one’s own position on the political spectrum. In other words, if the Left wants the Mormon vote they need to stop whining about how Mormons don’t think hard enough and present a case for their positions. The real question is not “Why do Mormons vote for Republicans?” but “What do the Democrats offer to Mormons?” Considering the current poll data and recent voting trends, the answer is something in the environment of “Obviously, not very much.” |
#15 Mark Brown. I think its hard to pin the cause on one guy at BYU 45 years ago. I do think thought that the 60′s is a big part of the answer. This is when the culture wars kicked off and the two parties divulged on social/geopolitical issues. Prior to the 60′s I think that the parties were pretty similar on these two fronts. When the left started to embrace standards/ideas (sexual revolution, anti-americanism, anti-military abortion, gays, feminism) that were in conflict with how practicing Mormons saw the world the LDS folk simply went right in an almost allergic reaction. My own family including my inlaws were all Dems until the 1960′s. Exclusively over the New Deal. Now the only non ancient Dems that I am aware of are all inactive/lapsed LDS. My wife’s 91 year old Grandma still pulls the lever for the Dems but she is the only Dem still left in the family that is active LDS. She is also still singing the praises of FDR which makes sense if you lived thru the depression and your hubby was a union guy and you worked in a factory to help make ends meet |
MAC, The Mormon Republican trend is both idealogical and generational, which is why it is so pronounced. The modern Democratic party takes stands that members feel contradict their most important core beliefs – and it goes a lot deeper than a couple of issues like abortion and gay rights. The Democratic Party is on the wrong political side of a whole host of core values Mormons hold dear, much of it centering around concepts like agency and provident living: regulation, welfare, debt, taxes, and stimulating the economy – to name a few. Put that together with the fact that most LDS members in the U.S. have Republican parents and grandparents, and you have a recipe for a dominance of conservative thought among the membership. |
BRP, I agree whole-heartedly. My instinct tells me that a partial answer to bbell’s question is found here too. I wouldn’t be surprised if the disparity in political affiliation in and outside of Utah is there because 1) there is a larger percentage of the membership who don’t fit so squarely into the generational category and 2) there exist those who, for whatever reason, have politically distanced themselves from their roots and find it more comfortable to distance themselves geographically also. I might even go further out-on-a-limb and suggest that the latter group has its origins largely in individual’s academic/professional inclinations |
31, And to turn that a bit more. What do the Mormons offer the Democrats? Not much. We’re a small group. The Dems would have to alienate a large majority of their base just to try to pander to the Mormons. We’re not worth it. I think the concept of agency is why most Mormons vote for Republicans. However, that’s a false justification if they use it. The Republicans are just as happy to give your money to someone else or give someone else’s money to you. They certainly pay a bit of lip service to keep the strong conservatives chomping on the baited hook, but only as much as necessary. Generally, it seems the Republicans have moved left slowly, while the Democrats have moved left quickly. (on average of course, exceptions exist) |
Ezra T. Benson (Delusional paranoia, nuff said). Priesthood ban, Mormon White Supremacy Ideologies (Brigham Young, Bruce R. McConkie, Mark E, Peterson, Joseph Fielding Smith, the list goes on and on) and Mormons against Civil Rights (Racism). Priesthood male hierarchy and Mormons against Equal Rights (Misogyny). Mormons love to portray themselves as righteous victims, that have been victimized for the sole reason of being righteous and good. Their latest false, paranoid and delusional persecution rhetoric: intellectuals and liberals are out to attack and destroy religion (Oaks). Semantics, rhetoric and sales pitch: Republicans sell their party as the “Moral Values” party. Both parties are about moral values of course, but one selling itself as the moral values representative inevitably relegates the opposing one as the opposite of that, which in this case is not true, but as a sales pitch it works. Social pressure- absolutely. I have heard many times in Mormon UT liberals cannot be Mormons and vice versa. Mormons that dare to have differing political views are vilified, demonized, alienated (no callings for them) and looked down on by their religious community: few have the cojones to withstand the Mormon hatred against diversity. Ignorance- Mormons don’t seem to think for themselves, they just do what they are told by their leaders because they think (incorrectly) that their leaders’ ideas represent God’s ideas. Mormons have given up true discernment and have preferred the false traditions of their fathers and their leaders. This is clearly shown as they go from one extreme to another… from the socialist/communist ways of Joseph Smith to the condemning of such things as “evil” resembling cold war era rhetoric. Their leaders are pretty much God: whatever they say is what goes. Mark Brown #15, very interesting. I know the freakish things Mormons at BYU are capable so I am not terribly surprised but I was not aware of that story. Yeah, I guess you can add that pest called BYU and their freakish and crazy attempts at keeping it as conservative as possible, and then their brainwashed indoctrinated pupils going out to be the leaders of the Church around the world. Again, Mormons against diversity and freedom of thought and speech at its best. Ignorant, deceitful, extremist freaks on celebrity pedestals that Mormons consider role models: Glen Beck. I agree with the things mentioned above as resistance to the other extremist displays of liberalism: hippies etc. Extremism probably falls within Newton’s third law: a force applied generates an equal and opposite force. Extremism generates equal and opposite extremism. Need more reasons? Whether they are wrong or right, and some mere stereotypes that may be only true in exceptional instances if you want to believe it that way, I think the reasons listed here do cover quite a bit… |
Last Sunday, my idiot former home-teacher actually had the nerve to get up and spew his racist, bigoted rant about illegal aliens and tied it to Glen Beck and the gospel. What pisses me of is the SP was there and did nothing to stop him and two doors down we have a Spanish branch. My branch president is clueless. He’s lucky I didn’t stand up and tell him to shut up. I don’t go to church to hear peoples political view points and that’s not why he was asked to speak. he was asked to speak on Gospel principles. Not hot button political issues. |
Manuel, Do you think it even possible that the vast majority of active LDS who are conservative arrived at their political orientation thru legit means or do you think they are deceived/hoodwinked/false consciousness etc? |
Diane, members have been saying stupid things as far back as Sidney Rigdon’s “Salt” speech. And even before then. Boy, Moses really had his hands full with bone-headed church-members, didn’t he? And a lot of Paul’s letters to the branches of his day was to correct false doctrine that kept creeping in. Personally, I don’t see how Democrat members of the church qualify for temple-recommends, so it’s a good thing I’m not in charge of anything. |
@39 I suppose that was your lame attempt at taking a pot shot at me. But your right in that its’ a good thing that your not in charge of anything, because people would see right thru your hypocrisy and call you on it. I know I would. The fact of the matter is, I’m not for anyone, democrat or republican, or Independent getting up and spewing their political beliefs from the pulpit. Its’ tacky. The last time I checked Sunday sacrament talks are for the doctrines of the gospel of Jesus Christ . Political discussions, when talked about during the course of friendship is one thing, or when your at someone’s house is fine, but not at church. |
I have been following the comments on this blog with a great deal of interest. I speak as a supporter of Barrack Obama who believEs that he has done more to bring about a society in which ,in the words of the prophet Amos “justice rolls down like waters and rightesnos like a mighty stream” than any president since Franklin Roosevelt or Lyndon Johnson. If there is a Obama-Romney matchup in 2012 I look forward to voting for Obama. I am sure that this will consign me to outer darkness in the view of of perhaps a majority of Church members, but I just renewed my Temple Recommend and I don’t remember any questions about how I voted or plan to vote. I think most of the reasons that have been given in the comments about why LDS members in the U.S. tend to vote conservative have some validity ,though I think there is no one overiding reason. This conservative tilt in the LDS body politic has deep ,long standing roots and is not going to change any time soon and it is just something that me and other active members of the church who share more liberal views will have to live with. What I don’t think we should live with is members making comments in church meetings like were mentioned in post#37. While I haven’t heard anything as blatant in my ward, there have been times. I wish members would look at Elder Uchdorf’s talk in the last conference about accepting members who are different and Elder Cook’s plea for civility when we have political disagreements We need more talks like that in conference and they need to be more specific. Some of the brethern need to say clearly and uniquivocally that you can be a good Latter Saint and be a Democrat/Liberal. They also need to say that partisan political talk should STOP at the chapel doors. These messages need to be repeated at the next conference and the next and the next until the message gets across. I know you are not supposed to counsel the brethern and I am not holding my breath for this to happen anytime soon but I can dream can’t I ??? |
@41 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNN! Amen to that sentiment. Can you tell how strongly I feel about this. |
I can and I understand. |
“Some of the brethern need to say clearly and uniquivocally…” Does it give you pause before saying that? Or upon re-reading it? Do you feel the need to insert your opinions what God should do and say? To twist a familiar line… It seems to be the nature of nearly all men and women that as soon as they gain a little wisdom, as they suppose, they begin to exalt themselves into spokesmen and counselors for God and His chosen servants. I don’t want to attack anyone here, but I’d just plea for us to consider what we should do and the approach we should have. I’ve always preferred the, “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” approach. That is to say, when confronted with people I see doing something different than what I would do, I try to redouble my efforts to live up to the light and knowledge I have received. Sometimes some gentle persuasion in areas where my stewardship or friendship extends is offered, but if its rebuffed or not desires, it’s back to me and my house. Just an oberservation :) |
It does give me pause, I do sustain the brethern as prophets seers and revelators, though not as infallible guides to politcal issues. (example :read President Hinckley’s comments in october 2002 conference on the upcoming Iraq War, in light of what happened since then and the failure to find weapons of mass destruction) When confronted with experiences like diane describes in post#37 those of us with diferent politcal views do need to respond and speak up ,though in the spirit of D&C 123 “with gentleness. meekness and love unfiegned” BUT– the things that Diane described DO happen in the Church and they happen too often. I fear that we can expect things to get worse as we move into the 2010 election and even more so as we approach the presidential election of 2012. I am firmly convinced that the ONLY way we can avoid these problems is for the brethern to speak out clearly in Conference. If it doesn’t happen the church will alienate good members who have different politcal views from the conservative majority. The church runs a risk of being known as the Church of Glen Beck or the The Church of the conservative wing of the Repuublican party ,not the Church of Jesus Christ. I may have said too much, but I now take a Pontius Pilate stand, what I have written I have written. |
I have deleted some posts that were a putdown of the Bretheren. Watch yourselves |
The brethren have already responded to this blog. “Members of the Church are free to have their separate political views and express them whatever way they like.” Okay, so it’s not directly the brethren (it’s just the church website), and it’s not a response to this blog (although it’s certainly a response to some of the ideas presented by some of the comments above). And the brethren tell us before every election that good can be found in different political parties. It seems as if they are saying, over and over again, “it’s okay to vote differently from other Mormons.” Apparently we’re not getting that, because they keep on having to repeat it. Over and over again. |
The message isn’t getting through as Diane’s experience on post#37 indicates. The bland generalities of the statements Tim mentions are simply not enough. This is why I believe that a more specific talks at general conference are needed. But then President Monson doesn’t consult with me on these issues which is probably a good thing. |
@47) She flat out told him that she (the investigator) didn’t need to here his crap. How ignorant can someone be. I don’t advocate anyone be they conservative or liberal getting up and spewing their political beliefs on a Sunday. If one wants a roundhouse talk at someone house that’s one thing, but at sacrament meetings as well as other meetings no, neither I nor anyone else should have to put up with it. |
#48 and #49: I agree completely. It’s unfortunate that these people don’t understand or refuse to follow the prophet’s counsel. I think we have some power here. When we hear things at church that don’t belong at church, we have a right to object. In a class setting this can be done as soon as the offensive comment is made; in other settings we may have to discuss our concerns with the bishop or others. If things are particularly bad in your ward, bring copies of statements made by the church and the brethren to class with you. Particularly the statement that is read in every ward in the U.S. right before elections–that the church doesn’t adhere to any one political party, and that good can be found in different political parties. |
Liberal or conservative, we need to make sure the principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ guide our attitudes and actions toward a fellow member. Rather than rail against or complain about members who inappropriately use church forums to express their political views, we should instead seek to understand and help them. |
We should also seek to help those who may be offended or feel like outcasts because of the prevalence of such comments. We can do that tactfully–and publicly. |
#49 — I disagree with you (partly). I think you should you sit there and listen to what someone else has to say, and then when its your turn your free to say what you want. What you DO NOT have to do is being persuaded by what he says. You DO NOT have to feel that your opinion doesn’t matter, but its you that is choosing to do that. Generally speaking, your giving an opportunity every week to speak your mind on various topics, and once a month to get up there and say whatever you want. I’ve recently come to the conclusion that church isn’t a great place to have a debate (thats what blogs are for!) but you can and should share with others your point of view. Ironically you seem to be able to do that with great success here. (and I mean that as a compliment) |
