Thank you for sharing this article Bruce. It breaks my heart and I am sorry for my ancestor’s participation. I hope the victims of MMM, and their descendants, can somehow find it in their hearts to forgive us.

“On September 11, 2007, at the memorial ceremony for the sesquicentennial anniversary of the massacre, Henry B. Eyring, an Apostle who would join the First Presidency of the LDS Church the following month, read an official statement, saying:
“We express profound regret for the massacre carried out in this valley 150 years ago today, and for the undue and untold suffering experienced by the victims then and by their relatives to the present time. A separate expression of regret is owed the Paiute people who have unjustly borne for too long the principal blame for what occurred during the massacre. Although the extent of their involvement is disputed, it is believed they would not have participated without the direction and stimulus provided by local church leaders and members.”
Eyring was careful to place responsibility with local LDS civic and religious leaders, rather than with Brigham Young. Some, including Fancher Party descendants and historian Will Bagley, did not see this as an apology. Church spokesman Mark Tuttle agreed, saying “We don’t use the word ‘apology.’ We used ‘profound regret.’”[8] However, Richard E. Turley, managing director of the Family and Church History Department, said it was intended as an apology[8] and the church-owned Deseret News called this message “a long-awaited apology” from the LDS Church.”
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre_and_Mormon_public_relations)

You are right #3 Don- they don’t take it far enough, but it is improvement on the former “blaming the victim” mentality.

How serious is the threat of litigation from an event that happened 150 years ago?

It’s just playing games with words. The statement used “profound regret,” so if you don’t want to accept the apology, all you have to do is claim that “profound regret” somehow isn’t profound enough. If the statement had used apology, remorse, or sorrow, then those determined to reject the statement would just claim that some other words should have been used.

I have profound regret that George Bush dragged our country into a war with Iraq based on lies about 9/11 and WMD, but I can’t apologize for it because it wasn’t my decision and I said loudly and often at the time that it was a lie and that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. (I was right.)

Even a child knows the difference. That’s why words matter. The Mormon Church won’t apologize for any number of possible reasons. Personally, I think they only regret that they were caught.

After the DN called it an ‘apology’, the MC went to great lengths to say that it was not, as per the statement by spokesman Trotter. Entirely consistent, if you ask me, for the MC not to ever admit wrongdoing and thus apologize, as well as Mormons generally. Repentance it seems, is only for people like me, who are guilty of preferring the love of my own sex rather than women. No amount of demonization of homosexuals is enough, but apologies from Mormons, not so necessary especially if the victims have been dead over 150 years. Apparently that is within the ‘doesn’t count’ timeline.

My trip to Mountain Meadows was sad and the final nail in the coffin of my desire to want anything to do with Mormons. To me, it is all you need to know.

The Church apologized, but they used the words they did for a reason, and that reason has nothing to do with liability, as there is no cause of action in the world that would give monetary relief to descendents of victims this late in the game. The reason has to do with the fact that the Church doesn’t believe that BY or other general Church leaders ordered or caused the massacre. That’s why it stopped short of saying something like “We apologize.” Profound regret means that it’s a regrettable incident that you aren’t directly at fault for. If BY helped to unintentionally cause the massacre by creating an environment where it could happen, that is not the same thing as ordering or suggesting that it be done. Not even close. That’s why those words were used.

I only bring up the liability issue because every year, someone starts a movement for “reparations for slavery,” and every year there are a few more people who give serious credence to such a someone. I’d be very surprised if knowledge of that chum in the water weren’t at least a partial reason behind the Church’s choice of words.

Hey, ExMoHoMoDon, don’t you feel guilt over not apologizing for the Spanish Inquisition? The Franco-Prussian War? The marauding of the Mongol Hordes? After all, it was humans who did all of those things, and you’re one of those goldarned humans. There are limits to the responsibility that one can take for acts that one did not actually commit.

Don, if “lots of people” feel that way, then “lots of people” are in need of therapy.

#19 Bingo

19

No offense taken, I have been called much worse.

My impressions of MM are no doubt colored by my utter contempt for and dislike of Mormons. It is a complex and horrible story, where no one wins.

Don’t worry, I don’t hang out, I just drop in occasionally–most of the time you are left undisturbed by anything that would question the accepted ‘Mormons are God’s Chosen narrative’.

You are absolutely right, only I have asserted it. The evidence of that narrative is obvious: Mormons believe that theirs is the ‘Only True Church’, that all other religions are false and you send missionaries all over the world to persuade everyone else of that. Mormons believe that only their Church leaders speak for God, and accordingly they have the right to tell others how to live–going so far as to make sure that homosexuals are not entitled to equal protection under the law because of the inferiority of their families. Most importantly, Mormons are wholly unable to ever admit fault on any level, preferring to demonize those who point out failings or moral inconsistencies as ‘apostates’, ‘enemies’ (or just fill in the blank with the appropriate adjective) If that doesn’t make you ‘God’s Chosen’, I don’t know what does.

29
Which proves my point.

Repentance it seems, is only for people like me — that is a wise moment of self understanding ExMoHoMoDon. I look forward to your follow-up on it ;)

‘Brainless crap’ = issues that you don’t want or feel you need to deal with because you are so righteous. Sorry to interrupt the testimony meeting–just one question–have your installed the Remeuptom yet?

‘you have an axe to grind, but it has nothing to do with us’ Let me guess…this is the part where you tell me how liberal you are and that you actually have gay friends? (Of course, not the ‘uppity’ kind, but those who mind their place, perhaps?’

Maybe your are right. So what is different about you?

If what I say were in fact ‘standard anti Mormon claptrap’ you wouldn’t bother responding. That is the standard Mormon reply to everyone who doesn’t treat you with sufficient deference. What you really want is the same tired cross talk only amongst yourselves. In that case, you need another members only self congratulatory club, like the Mormon Church. Maybe the internet isn’t the forum for you if you can’t endure anyone outside your club. Truth is, if it weren’t for the Mormon attack on my family with Prop 8, you would never had heard of me…I would have gladly gone on ignoring Mormons.

Guess what, I get what you are saying. I’m a little obtuse, but you have persisted and I do understand what you are saying. I’m sorry, I am just really, really angry, and I feel that me and my family (3 kids) have been attacked. I’m kind of in the same boat with the Dixie Chicks….’not ready to make nice’. Again, you have prevailed in getting me to understand where you are coming from. Thanks.

I am going to tread lightly here because I don’t want to put words in any ones mouth, but I think the reason why Ex feels angry is because of the way the Mormon church continues to make everyone else Accountable for their actions/ words but when it comes to the hierarchy of the church they seem to go out of the way to do a double speak. They are quite skillful at having the public affairs office put out statements which seem like they are apologizing, but really they aren’t. They (meaning leaders) do want to go the extra mile in creating either an inclusive environment for anyone who might be different. Instead, they do a turnabout and make it an issue of repentance, to me this is reprehensible. Why do I feel this way? first, because as a former English major, I know that the nuance between the words regret and apology is huge. If I apologize for something that I have done, I am letting the other person whom I have offended know that I have recognized on some level of the hurt,disappointment, pain that I have caused them. If I apologize with that kind of acknowledgment than there is possibility for forward movement on the issue at hand. On the other-hand, If I offer a regret, there is no such acknowledgment and there can be no such movement. If I just say I regret something I’ve done, it really just a superficial emotion with shows no real clear understanding.

Wow, ExMoHoMoDon…..way to threadjack.

You’d come across as less of a jackass if you adopted a little bit of consistency. Beyond that, don’t hang your hat on Judge Walker’s legal reasoning in the Prop 8 case — as his opinion is pretty devoid of reasoning, and chock full of SSM talking points and rank dismissal of evidence presented at trial which doesn’t jive with his, shall we say…..orientation on the matter.

And for someone who doesn’t want anything to do with Mormons, you do spend quite a bit of time thinking about us.

Diane,

Did you even read what I said? Take the time to read it and you’ll see that I already addressed every point you raised. Again, the concern here isn’t the parsing the of the statement, it is ExMoHoMoDon’s interaction on this blog.

And then you invoke Godwin’s law? Lovely.

Diane,
Clearly you don’t know me and don’t know what I think about MMM or any number ofnother topics. You are reflexively lumping me in with your notion of Mormons and arguing with a fiction. Not a way to have a productive conversation.

Tom O

I’ve got 50 bucks that says you couldn’t quote anything from Judge Walker’s opinion because in fact you haven’t read it. Give us a few examples of ‘talking points’. Show us how it was ‘devoid of reasoning’, and please give a few examples of evidence he ignored. Which witness’s testimony did he ignore?

John
From my point of view, the attitudes that caused MM have not changed one bit. Indeed, what has been learned? After years of official lying, the MC only acknowledged that its members and leaders perpetrated the crime, as is clearly laid out in Juanita Brooks’ book, when the weight of historical evidence became overwhelming and coverup was no longer possible. That attitude still prevails in Mormonism–there is no willingness that I can see to examine thoughtfully and humbly the sins of Mormons individually or collectively, but a huge willingness to obsess about the sins of others. Like it or not, accurate or not, that is how a lot of people see you. Is that just ‘anti-Mormon’ sentiment, or is there any possibility that someone in the MC will ever say: ‘We were so very wrong, and we apologize.’ I don’t see it happening. Obsessing over the sex lives of homosexuals–of course, but examining for example, the marriages of JS to women married to other men, and without Emma’s knowledge, not likely.