I don’t think I have ever seen one hired. I thought it was always the oldest High Priest.

MAC–wow. He totally looks like you are going to rob you. I had never thought of an African Santa–I guess if he is necessary, I could accept a black Santa pretty easily, as long as he didn’t wear a mask.

I say no. Kids get plenty of Santa in other Christmas activities. The ward party is one place where Christmas should be just about Jesus.

I say yes. Our ward has a nice dinner, a lovely program focused on Christ, then at the very end, while folks are cleaning up, Santa is stationed in a corner of the gym. A talented sister made the Santa suit, a kind brother volunteers to wear it, and the kids have a ball. For lots of families it’s the only time the kids will see a Santa, and certainly the only time they will see Santa and get a picture without having to pay a fee.

Whether or not a family teaches their kids to believe in Santa is up to them but I REALLY wish he would be left out of the ward party. Or that the ward party would not be held at the church. Santa has no more business there than Mickey Mouse.

Anyone who is against Santa is just a bad person, plain and simple.

I don’t see Christmas trees in the Bible either. I say: Santa Yes, Easter Bunny no.

But some Mormons call the latter the “Ether Bunny”, so whatever.

If it were up to me, there would be no Santa, but if he is there, the Santa to Jesus ration ought to be at least 1:2.

I disagree that Santa and trees have nothing to do with Christ whatsoever. And I disagree that the date we celebrate Christmas is objectionable. And I think it is ridiculous to give up wonderful traditions because their roots may include some pagan background.

I believe in Santa Claus, and that, for one year at least, he worked at the mall in Albuquerque, NM. My 7- or 8-year old niece had come to stay with us for a couple of weeks before Christmas, and we took her to the mall to see Santa. When it came her turn to sit on his lap, he greeted her with a “Hello, Jenica! Have you been a good girl this year?” Jenica is her real name, but we always either called her “Jeni” or “Jake,” and there wasn’t any point in time where we could have told him her name. Only the REAL Santa Claus would have known her real name without being told.

I am reminded of a recent post at My Life is Average. The commenter said she had been given the job by her parents to tell her little sister that there was no Santa Claus. The sister’s response? “Yeah, right. Next thing, you are going to try to convince me that Harry Potter isn’t real, either.” Hee.

Santa brings presents to help us remember that Heavenly Father gave us the best present of all: His Son, Jesus Christ.

I am saddened by the comments here that Santa is secular, inappropriate, and should not be at ward parties. I am even more saddened to think about children who will not be taught about Santa at home.
We had a good Bishop (I have never had a bad Bishop, come to think of it, but that’s because anyone who would accept that calling and attempt to fulfill it is a good Bishop in my opinion) several years ago who adamantly opposed Santa in every way. He absolutely refused to allow Santa to have any part or mention at the ward Christmas party, and made sure that every adult member of the ward understood that, in his opinion, teaching children to believe in Santa was wrong and no righteous parent would ever do such a thing. He did not have children yet (he and his wife eventually adopted two beautiful girls), and I chalked his attitude up to never having had the experience of playing Santa and witnessing the true joy that Santa brings. I did not agree with his feelings, but hey, he was the Bishop, so I was willing to abide by his rules about the ward party since I have no desire to ever be a Bishop and so don’t want to start criticizing the Bishop’s decisions (I am a woman, so it won’t happen anyway, but you know what I mean).
That being said, I believe that all the research will show that children learn best by example. And I think this applies to all children, even those of us who are long out of the single digit ages. After all, a perfect Father in Heaven sent His Son, our Savior, not only to atone for our sins, but also to show us the way to live–by setting the perfect example. So, what better way to celebrate our Savior’s birth than to encourage children to believe in a being who does nothing but give selflessly to all the children of the world? This beautiful example of a man is happy, loving, and delights in secretive (shows up at midnight, sneaks into the house, and does not expect a big reception or any kind of hoopla in return) giving to every deserving child in the world. And yes, to be honest, as a parent I have used the “Santa doesn’t bring toys to badly behaved children” belief to motivate proper behavior, but has Santa ever really called a child “bad”? Not that I know of. So, to me, Santa is one of the best examples of Christ-like love there is in the world, and as such deserves not only to be invited to the ward Christmas party, but also to be an honored and warmly received guest at such an event.
And anyone who says they won’t teach their children about Santa Claus is not only a Scrooge, but also does not understand the glorious type and example that Santa provides to children everywhere about unconditional Christ-like love and selfless giving.

I have some good memories of Santa at Christmas parties. One of the very best was when our bishop was Santa and my 6 year old son was totally converted to Santa because he knew his name! Santa was talking to all the kids and they never suspected it was the bishop.

The other one is when Santa told my darling girl, age 6 that he would definitely bring her a nutcracker. This was a few days before Christmas. Boy, I searched all over and finally found one! She’s gotten some form of nutcracker every year since and has a very nice collection. I asked him (a ward member) “why did you say that?” and he said, “well, it seemed like a simple request.”

I’m thought provoked, though, by the poster that says if your kids find out everything you said about Santa wasn’t true, will they think everything they’ve been told about Jesus isn’t true. Makes ya wonder.

Heather, get a grip. Wards do not use tithing for Christmas parties. The larger issue though, is why you have no faith in Santa. Just because you don’t know him doesn’t mean he isn’t real.

Wow Heather,
SOMEBODY didn’t get her Hippopotamus for Christmas. (I LOVE that song by the way but my wife hates it.)
I guess we better get rid of the Christmas Party altogether then. Or at least wait till April to have it since it’s a lie that Jesus was born on December 25.

It’s only a lie if you don’t believe it. I for one believe in Santa Claus even if the Real Santa Clause died 1600 years ago, people still carry out his mission in his name. For the last 3 years, I have put on the emblems of his office and represented him at a small Christmas Party in a friend’s home. I have had to retire because my good friend Wesley (age 5) now finds it suspicious that his friend Ron is always late to his Christmas Party and always misses the guest of honor. it goes back to Santa Claus being, not a lie, but a symbol of Christ.
But if you’re going to start comparing Santa to Satan, then you have bigger issues that we probably can’t address here.

And #14, bookslinger,
I have never heard anybody call the Easter Bunny the “ether bunny” but if I did I’d be hard pressed not to slap them.

Ron, we can still celebrate the birth of Christ in December, just like I celebrate my birthday on the first day of the month of my half birthday (my birthday is in December and we celebrate it on June 1st). There is not problem because as long as we don’t lie about it being in December. Bust regarding Santa…we are lying.

“It’s only a lie if you don’t believe it”? While you are correct in saying that a lie is a known untruth expressed as a truth, I would suggest not lying to us about your belief in Satan (oops Freudian slip). While history speaks nicely of St. Nicholas of Myra and tells us he was a great man, I wonder whether he should have a major role in our ward holiday parties. I think not! Let us remember Christ for who he is and what he does and not through a figure whose characteristics and actions have been molded to fit the needs of commercialized society which greatly lacks faith in the man who St. Nicholas himself worshiped!

I think its overkill to get too judgemental about allowing your kids to believe in Santa. Relax and enjoy the holiday season.

One thing that is true about the naccle is that you can always find somebody to get unhinged about almost anything no matter how benign.

I just remembered one of the funniest jokes I ever heard, though. A boy had reached the age at which his mom determined he was old enough to understand about the Easter Bunny. She carefully explained that she and Dad were actually the ones who brought the baskets and hid the eggs for him to find on Easter. Then, realizing that his friends might still believe and not wanting her son to ruin the fun for them, she said, “Oh, but make sure you don’t tell your friends. We should keep the secret until their parents decide to tell them.” To which her son replied, “Believe me, Mom. I am NEVER going to go tell my friends that you think you are the Easter Bunny.”

Out of curiosity, Heather, how old are your kids, and did you enjoy Christmas as a child?

Nope. Thanks!

“They are not being taught that it is their duty to destroy others’ beliefs. If the topic comes up I want them to speak what they have been taught and not lie to make the other kids feel good.”
Why not just teach them to remove themselves from that conversation. then they don’t have to lie to make the other kids feel good but they don’t have to destroy their belief either.

heather, I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone as absurdly bitter about Santa. Wow. Of all the things to get worked up about that detract from Christ, I can think of a few that are more deserving and justifiably evil than Santa. So since you are so fixated on the whole Santa/Satan letter-swapping convenience, how does that work in other languages where that whole letter-swapping trick doesn’t work?

Heather I am afraid that even for the ‘naccle you are a little bit unhinged. See #43. She is spot on. I actually think you should be nominated for a niblet in overwroughtedness for your #39.

viv,
I recognize that this letter-swapping business does not hold for all languages, but is a convenient tool in English. Read general conference talks…they use other useful tools that only work in English. Do you refer to them as tricks to deceive? I think not and I hope you grant me the same linguistic creativity. I’m not work p about anything…They question was asked and I responded and now I defend. And yes, I can think if many things more evil than Santa but they do not fit into this discussion (let’s stay on topic please). If you would like to start another thread elsewhere then please do and we can discuss the evil nature of other things there.

Sundee,
that’s great that you are older than me and more experience in raising your kids the way you did. But I will not. I am truly sorry you have not been able to raise your kids like you planned to. I hope they still turned out great. Life is full of adjustments, compromises, and changes in thought and practice. I hope your other youthful “plans and aspirations” have not met the same fate as those related to child rearing.

Let me just refer to scripture. Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Choose you this day whom ye will have as central figures in your life and the lives of your children during this Christmas season. Whether it be Jesus Christ our Lord or the secular gift-giving Santa Claus, but as for me and my family, we will focus on the Lord!

Great argument Ron. I can see you passed the 3rd grade using those attack/defense techniques.

I am not the first to look at relations between words. Another example is devil, evil, vile, ill. Which are all related.

And Ron you aren’t the first to completely change sentences to fit your narrative…those sleazy politicians during election season do it all the time!

Now to address your swapping (creating a whole new sentence) technique:
I have no problem with what your kids believe (see #46), but for me and my family we will not be lying about Santa. And when asked if there should be a Santa at a Ward party I vehemently so NO for several reasons, several which have been discussed in this forum. So believe what you will, lie to your children if you will, do whatever you want, but me and my family will not and if we do encounter and the topic comes up we will neither go along with your lie nor “remove ourselves” to allow you and your family live a lie. If you would like to remove yourselves then please do! And teach your child to remove themselves in any future disagreements or difference.

I am 100% comfortable with Heather not attending the Ward Christmas party. I am also OK if she chooses not to attend the Ward Halloween party or Ward 4th of July breakfast, either.

As for me and my family, we believe in parties, we seek after parties and we don’t have a problem if Santa decides to celebrate Christ’s birth with us.

Ron,
maybe i was wrong about 3rd grade (riteous? It’s righteous. clause? a clause is a pair or group of words that consists of a subject and a predicate)

If Santa is at the ward Christmas party then we will not be there. Will I instruct m kids to incorrect errors yes…of course. You don’t want your kids to correct things that are incorrect?

Well, I surprised that you still think that is a correct statement you quoted above because in #48 I was quite honest when I don’t care what you do in your house…yet you still think that I think they are not entitled to their own beliefs. Of course they can believe whatever they want. Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised you still believe that statement since you obviously believe many crazy things.

And I stand corrected. I never meant to imply you or your actions were sleazy…just 3rd grade…eerrrr….2nd grade-like.

Living in Zion,
Thanks for letting me know you won’t be depressed if I’m not there….I was worried knowing your fragile state.
And you’re family is for parties? Awesome, I’m glad you’ve taught your kids to have the right priorities in life. I can rest assured knowing the world is safe in your hands. As for me and my family, we love Christ, the gospel, learninig, languages, science and mathematics, art and theatre, and traveling.

I love it! Santa celebrating Christ’s birth is exactly how I look at it. And I am thinking, after all this discussion, that Santa is in the eye of the beholder, anyway, so Heather–Santa probably is evil in your world. But he truly is not evil in my world, nor a lie, and I agree with Ron when he says that your kids are sadly being raised to believe other kids are entitled to their beliefs as long as they match yours.
What about when the Jewish kids at school are discussing their beliefs about a Messiah? What happens when Joey, who has two moms, tells your kid that his moms are good people? I shudder to think!
The brethren teach nothing if they don’t teach that we should have respect and tolerance for others’ beliefs whether we agree or not. “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God…” (sound familiar?). And that means that what you might consider false or a lie might be a dearly held belief for another, so then what are you going to do? Quite a dilemma for you, I bet. And even more so for your poor children who must boldly declare the truth in order to be righteous as far as you are concerned. Will they follow the brethren and allow others the same privilege, or boldly declare the truth as you see it? Wow!
See, sometimes it is best to respectfully withdraw and keep our opinions to ourselves. And in my opinion, a belief in Santa is good, and so my children have been encouraged to respect other childrens’ rights to believe even if they understand Santa differently than my children do. That is why we try to live close to the Spirit– so that we can discern in the moment what we ought to do and say.
And as for my children and how they have grown up, I couldn’t be more pleased. They are good, happy, loving, giving, tolerant people with strong testimonies. They do, however, make mistakes. And all of the things that I thought I wanted for them have become secondary as I have learned that I do not have the power or ability to shape who they are. They are who they are, and I am blessed to have the privilege of learning and growing along with them as I do my best to set an example that I would be pleased for them to follow. They don’t always follow my example, by the way, and that is sometimes not a bad thing, as I am not perfect.
Another thing that concerns me is that you have now included in your definition of truth the idea that if you swap letters in a word you will get to the true meaning of that word. Where in the scriptures or GC talks do we learn about that little trick? Or is there some truth that exists outside of those places? The arguments just don’t stand up to scrutiny.
I will say again, Santa is in the eye of the beholder, and I, for one, am glad to say that I believe, and so do my children. He brings us joy and leads us to do good, so by my definition and understanding, this means that Santa is of God. And again, I am sad for you that you do not think so. But hey, it takes all kinds, doesn’t it?

# 52 – Heather

2 Nephi 2:25 – ” Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.”

Me and Santa at the ward Christmas party, experiencing joy with our fellow Saints, celebrating Christ’s birth. Sounds great.

sorry i meant to say I may disagree with what you believe but will defend your right to believe it. Sorry

It is true. Sorry to give hope to humanity.

I try to speak as honestly as I can. With respect to saying I’ve never lied to her, I can’t be certain. But I can honestly say I don’t remember a single instance where I have lied to her. Subtle difference but I thought I should honest.

A half-truth, half-lie statement…no. A partial explanation is not a lie. A lie is a known untruth expressed as a truth. A partial explanation can be all truth but without lies, just missing some details. For example, when proving integration methods in calculus you can show people how to integrate and avoid all the messing details of convergence and such or show them all the messy details. Professors don’t teach the messy details until they become upperclassmen. But they weren’t lying before when they showed them how to integrate. They only showed them the truths they could understand.

I think you are splitting hairs in #64. I can think of plenty of circumstances where a partial explanation qualifies as an outright lie according to the definition you have given on this thread.

I just don’t think lying and child-rearing are as a cut and dry as you make it out to be. Children believe all kinds of fictional characters are real at different points in their learning, and parents are usually complicit in this deception until they figure out the truth on their own because it is good for their development. I don’t see why Santa Clause should be any different.

Do you make sure your children know that every fictional character they are exposed to (Barney, Dora, the Cat in the Hat, the Hungry Little Caterpillar) on TV or in writing is in fact not real? If you don’t, then you are by your own definition, intentionally perpetuating a lie.

The way you are representing the Santa Clause issue is very cut and dry. Most parents don’t push the Santa narrative very hard with their children – but they also allow their kids to discover he is a fictional character on their own. It’s not inherently wrong to allow your children to discover at least some of the differences between fact and fiction themselves. You are certainly free to choose not to do that, but I don’t know that it is fair to characterize those of us who raise children and make a different choice in regard to this particular fictional character as willfully perpetuating a lie.

but of course you’re free to do that

thanks. Merry christmas to you too!

Sorry but we don’t have ice cream or sweets at our house, but a good apple and slice of watermelon sounds nice!

Haha. Fine, if you are going to argue you really believe in Santa then whatever…how can one argue against infantile beliefs. Let’s let the conversation end here.

As for what I believe, I seek some type of confirmation something like historical accounts in scripture or confirmation by the Spirit.

How is the Savior lying when telling parables? Parables are told as instructive ways of conveying an idea or message. Saying Santa is real and having your kid cry on an imposters lap at the mall is not at all similar and saying so is quite disingenuous.

Truth is relative? I would suggest you doing a little reading on what prophets have said regarding relative vs absolute truth.

No, I don’t necessarily think of Santa Claus as an embodiment of greed. That’s not the issue at all. Now you’re reaching for things…things that aren’t true.

My eye beholds the truth. Just admit Santa doesn’t exist and that when you say he does then you are lying. As long as you are okay with that then I can’t take that right away from you. Lie to your children if you would like. Most people do it…it’s ok. But don’t tell me I see a Santa as a lie and that he is not a lie. He is! But it’s ok. Why do you have to lie to me? You can lie to your children…but lie to me too? Come on…

Merry Christmas to all :)

Just because Santa in not a person does not mean he is not real. Santa is truly the spirit of giving at Christmas time. That spirit is real. Ergo, Santa is real to me. And that is not infantile. It is optimistic and idealistic perhaps, but infantile? Really? I don’t think so.
The core of my disagreement with you, Heather, is that you say that encouraging my children (and someday my grandchildren) to believe in Santa is perpetuating a lie. It is not. I live on earth, the sky is blue, and I believe in Santa.
The other problem I have with you is that you would encourage your children to out Santa to my children and somehow you feel justified and somewhat self-righteous in doing so. I’ll tell you what–let’s make a deal. I won’t teach my kids to expose your children to the beauty of sugar and TV if you won’t teach your kids to out Santa. Deal?

Santa is the spirit of giving? If you randomly ask 100,000 people who Santa is how many will respond “He is the spirit of giving”? I will say 5 tops! And that’s generous. That’s not the discussion here. Here we are discussing whether someone should dress up as the embodiment of “the spirit of giving” ;) at a ward christmas party. We are talking about a the physical Santa. If we want a symbol or figure that symbolizes giving why not look to the Savior Jesus Christ, who gave his life that all may live? Why replace the Savior who is the central figure to our faith, the literal Son of God with a false figure such as Santa?

Yes I believe you live on earth and I too know the sky is blue. But Santa..I doubt you believe in the personified being we call Santa but the spirit of giving during the holiday season exists.

My encouragement to my children is broader than just outing Santa. My encouragement is for them to speak up and tell the truth and to never back down. If Santa is outed along the way then I am sorry, but that’s not gonna change. I don’t mean to come off self-righteous. I like coming to these forums because I believe I have as much to learn hear as I do to teach. Sorry but no deal. We love sugary desserts on our birthdays…that’s 4 times a years! So delicious!

I am having a hard time letting this go.
Just to be clear–I tell my kids that Santa is real. My children range in age from 18 to 10, and I still tell them Santa is real. And having polled them this afternoon, every one of them believes in Santa. Did I ever tell them that a little jolly elf in a red suit with a magic sleigh and flying reindeer in all actuality and truthfulness lives and breathes on the earth? No. Did I take my kids to scream on Santa’s lap at the mall? No. Well, we do have one picture of our oldest on Santa’s lap and he is crying, but to be fair, we were at the mall to do some shopping, he saw Santa, he begged to get in line to see him, and then got frightened when he actually got to the lap. I find the picture cute, and it reminds me of a time when my son was young and still believed in magic, even if the mall Santa turned out to be scarier up close than my son anticipated. I didn’t push my son to sit on Santa’s lap, so I don’t think it counts as pushing him screaming onto the mall Santa’s lap. I read my kids stories about Santa, and his reindeer. I also read scriptural stories of Christ’s birth to them. I recited “Twas the Night Before Christmas” to them. I shared various versions of A Christmas Carol with them (our current favorite is A Muppet Christmas Carol) and while there is no mention of Santa or overt mention of the birth of the Savior in this story I find it to be one of the most instructive and “warm fuzzy” stories in all of the collection of Christmas literature that exists. Not the most, but one of the most. I also enjoy sharing other Christmas stories with my kids, and many of these storied mention Santa. I collect Christmas stories to a degree, in fact.
Anyway, the point is, my children asked me many times over the years whether or not Santa was real. My answer, then and now, is a resounding, “Yes!” My children also asked me if I believed in Santa, and again, I answered both then and now with a resounding, “Yes!” These are true statements. Santa is real, and I believe in Santa.
Also, when I said truth is relative, I misspoke. I should have said truth is subjective. Often, it is. Yes, there is such a thing as absolute truth, but how often can one truly access this absolute truth? And how does one do so? Through the Spirit. And the Spirit tells me that Santa is good, and real, and absolutely wonderful. And this is why I resent the idea that you would encourage your kids to call me a liar. Now, as to the original question of this post, I do think Santa has a place at the ward Christmas party. But, as I mentioned much earlier in this thread, I am not the Bishop, nor do I aspire to his position, so it is not for me to decide. Thank heaven for that.

A really hard time letting this go, as it turns out. My mother taught me that Santa is the Spirit of Giving, and I taught the same to my children. That makes six of us plus my Mom, 7. Plus her parents and all my aunts and uncles and cousins. That makes about 50. Plus several of my co-workers that I talked to today over the course of reading and contributing to this blog. They numbered about 10 at least. And I don’t think I even know 100,000 people. Already, I am up to over 50 people who would say that Santa is indeed the embodiment of the spirit of giving. I wouldn’t be surprised if more than half of the people in a random poll of 100,000 people would say they agreed with this. In fact, I would be surprised if it didn’t amount to more than half of the respondents in such a poll. Do you really think people would not? Again, sad. To repeat the beloved phrase so oft quoted this time of year, “Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.”
I get it now. You don’t believe because you don’t know who or what Santa is! Please quit calling me a liar for saying I believe in Santa, and for encouraging my children to say the same, because frankly, it is mean! And hurtful!

As I said before, I believe in Santa and so do my teenage kids. We think of him as the spirit of giving as well and I’m dead certain that is the way the majority of americans think of him. Other americans who have taught their kids about Santa include most of our modern-day prophets, including the current one.

People with manners are usually careful to avoid labeling others’ cherished traditions as “lies.”

But since I also believe Heather is a mirthless snob with no imagination and no sense of tradition or celebration, I’m not surprised about her lack of manners. I just hope someone comes along and teaches her children better.

Heather, you must be well-intentioned and obviously you think of your position as “honesty”, but I really hope you will reconsider training your children to repeat your (incorrect and grinchy) belief that Santa is a “lie”. To me and to many others, Santa is a beautiful tradition that is all about the “true meaning of Christmas”. Sundee is right, he is a type and a symbol and including him does not have to equate to materialism. You can have your traditions and please respect those of others.

I’m a bit late, but I vote that I like having Santa at ward Christmas parties. I’d be okay if he weren’t too, but I lean in favor.

Way back up in the comments, Heather (#52):

riteous? It’s righteous. clause? a clause is a pair or group of words that consists of a subject and a predicate

Please don’t try to score points in an argument by correcting other people’s spelling. These are comments on a blog, not articles submitted for publication.

Please don’t try to score points in an argument by correcting other people’s spelling.

Yeah, play ball the MoMt way and stick to scoring points by correcting formal fallacies in other people’s reasoning.

LIZ,
You may have something here. And I am being completely honest. I do have a PhD in a non-engineering science related field from a large East Coast University. I currently live in NYC and my experiences and surroundings have definitely shaped my view. My faith has become stronger (which I am thankful for everyday) and my desire to not teach my children the way I do is a result. I am not saying it is better, just the way I decide to do it. While I disagree with you stereotype regarding social nuances (I am not the normal egghead…I was a high school jock and still participate much in athletics), there is something to that.

Ziff, You’re right…It is kinda lame to correct spelling. Just look I have many mistakes…Sorry

Regarding Santa being the Spirit of Giving. I still firmly believe that if you ask most people “Who is Santa?” most will not reply “Santa is the Spirit of Giving”. However, Sundee may be right that some people will agree with the statement “Is Santa the Spirit of Giving?”. However, that is an unfair way of framing the question for the desired response.

Melyngoch, thanks for the lesson. I didn’t know that. Interesting.

However, 93 comments have been shared on this board and many arguments waged for and against Santa. And your conclusion is that I think we should ban Santa because in English there is visual similarity between the words Santa and Satan. Really? There has been much more said about the issue. So, if we want to use the Santa/Satan logic to ban prepositions then we need many more arguments (like we have against Santa). But it’s convenient for you to dismiss everything else that has been said and simplify everything down to the one contributing piece of information you have to offer. Nice.

Flynn offers five specific suggestions to help parents “steer clear” of encouraging negative Santa myths that are damaging to the emotional, psychological and intellectual well-being of their children:

–”Tell your kids that the Santa Claus myth is not true.

–Make clear to children that it is parents and relatives, not supernatural visitors, who put those presents under the Christmas tree.

–Do not call Santa Claus a metaphor, an allegory, or ‘the spirit of giving.’ Just say that Santa Claus is a false belief that other people sometimes teach their children. Present it as you might a peculiar religious doctrine: If other children believe in Santa, that is their right, and their sincerity in so believing it oughtn’t to be impugned. But none of that requires entertaining for a moment the idea that belief in Santa Claus is either true or beneficial.

–Tell children why Santa Claus has no place in your household.Instill elementary principles of critical thinking: a realistic outlook, a respect for truth, and an appreciation for cause and effect.

–Encourage (or at least permit) children to share their Santa skepticism with friends, at school, and during recreational activities. This is vital even if it leads to confrontations with neighbors, relatives, or teachers who accuse your kids of ‘ruining other children’s Christmas.’ Should this occur, defend your children’s open iconoclasm. Challenge critics who stoop to such negative stereotypes as ‘Scrooge’ and ‘Grinch.’ Most important, be sure children know that—and how—you supported them in their stance.” (Flynn, p. 147, original emphasis)

Heather– regarding Flynn: Secular humanism? Really? I would think that any LDS person, whether intellectual or not, would avoid such “notheist” propaganda.

Of course not, but it is interesting that you coincidentally TOTALLY agree with a secular humanist “nontheist” on this issue. I would think that if I were you, I would spend some time seriously re-thinking my stance if I found that to be the case.

Okay, that was pretty snarky of me. I don’t know how to remove it. Sorry.

Yeah, jock in the sense that I was on the women’s soccer team, volleyball team, and ran track and field in high school in California. Got a scholarship to undergrad for soccer until I quit due to an injury. Then focused more on my studies. Double majored in Math and Chemistry and minored in Economics. Got a Fellowship to graduate…that’s when I moved to the East Coast.

So I proudly say I was a jock turned intellectual.

I have never once said they should call others’ parents liars, but that they should explain what they have been taught and who taught them that (their parents).

I am not mirthless one bit. And until you meet you all I can say is I’m not. And if we meet one day I think you will agree. While explaining myself here and my beliefs, I am quite certain that the image I have created is quite different than the way I really am…. Oh well for that.

As for celebration, I love celebration and tradition. We celebrate Hanukkah and Passover in memory and reverence to my Jewish roots. Our daughter in loving advent and July 4th is my favorite holiday…Christmas is second.

Just last weekend we had a Christmas party with a group of people at our apartment. Quite fun!

And we love playing football on Thanksgiving! My team won this year!

Hopefully you can at least see that I am not mirtless without imagination and no sense of tradition or celebration. I may well be a snob though…but I hope not.

I mean, let’s be clear– you have called me a liar here in this forum, more than once.

Perfect solution, Ron! Let’s go with that!

Ron, I missed your last sentence at first, but I hope my children not talk about other kids behind their back. That is not a solution I can endorse.

How about this conversation?

Sundee: Hey Ron, I saw Santa Claus at the Mall and asked him for a Barbie Jeep. What did you ask him for this year?
Ron: Well, I was a little intimidated and I started to ask him for a football, but at the end I remembered to tell him that what I really wanted was a Red Ryder BB Gun. How about you Heather?
Heather: We don’t celebrate Christmas with a Santa Claus, but we instead focus on giving gifts between family members and friends and focus on the birth of Jesus Christ who gave us his Life?

It seemed in your imaginary conversation “Heather” butts in and “bursts their ballon”. However, in the second convo Heather is asked and she responds honestly.

Again, Santa not real=MEAN! And I will continue to make the argument that Santa IS as real as the spirit of giving, so saying my parents taught me that Santa isn’t real is MEAN to other children. Because no matter what our friend Flynn says, many children grow up believing in Santa and turn out mentally healthy, stable, compassionate, contributing members of society. And out of those children who grow up believing in Santa, I bet you would be hard-pressed to find many at all (I would bet fewer than 1% in fact) who would, as adults, say that believing in Santa was detrimental to their development in any way. And out of all of those people, I bet more than 99% would say that believing in Santa was in fact one of the true joys of their childhood. So this is why I am so adamantly opposed to your teaching your children to destroy that for anyone. Not your place. Not my place to teach your child about Santa, but not your place for you or your child to un-teach mine. Period. No matter how “honest” or “right” you think it is. Your rights end where mine begin, and you are infringing. Plain and simple.

Ron #116 I agree wholeheartedly.

Let me tell you how I see them.
When she responds with “We don’t celebrate Christmas with a Santa Claus, but we instead focus on giving gifts between family members and friends and focus on the birth of Jesus Christ who gave us his Life?”
Heather gets a warm fuzzy that she stood up for her beliefs. Ron and Sundee get to feel the spirit that Heather’s comment invited.

If she says “We don’t celebrate Christmas with a Santa Claus. In fact, my parents have taught me he isn’t real….”
Then she still gets the warm fuzzy that she stood up for her beliefs but all Ron and Sundee get is sorrow and disappointment. Nobody feels the Spirit. Nobody is edified. The ONLY person who benefits here is Heather.

I’ve been reading this back and forth all day and wondering.

Heather, your children ever been told things you didn’t want them to hear or know. How did you react? You probably didn’t like it did you?

Ron and Sundee, Why does it bother you so much that heather only wants to raise strong children that know the truth about Santa and other things? I presume we all want out children to stand up for what they believe is right, or am I wrong? Will your children really be missing out on so much if the learn about Santa at age 6 rather than age 8 or 9…probably not.

As I said, TG, I am having trouble letting this go. I love Santa and everything he stands for, and, as my husband will attest, when I get it in my head that I am right, I tend not to let up until I feel that my point of view has been understood and acknowledged. I am still waiting for Heather to understand and acknowledge that her stance on this issue is too harsh. I do not want her to teach her children to “lie”, but to agree not to teach them to “burst another child’s bubble” as Ron described.

Sundee. I would be willing to meet somewhere in the middle if you’re so adamant about Santa being real and that you believe he exists as the Spirit of Giving. We both know that is a cop-out. Let’s get serious.

Sundee, how do you feel about the tooth fairy or the Easter Bunny?

I need to just sign off and let it go, but to be honest, I am also enjoying the debate. But my husband and co-workers are now tired of hearing me talk about my latest thoughts and how eloquently I was able to express them in writing here on this thread, so I really need to just let it go. And so I shall, difficult as it may be.
As a final word from me, Heather, I respect your right to believe in Santa or not as your heart and conscience dictate, but my issue with you is that you do not have a right to destroy someone else’s belief in something so positive and uplifting, either yourself or through your children. You can call it standing up for what you believe, but it is just plain mean spirited. Ron was absolutely right when he gave the scenarios and pointed out that in your preferred scenario, noone is edified. That, right there, should be the determinant.

And cop-out? In your mind, yes. In mine, not even close. That is what I believe and how I feel, and that’s all there is too it. My belief does not infringe on your rights or beliefs in any way, nor does it seek to destroy anything you or your children hold dear, thus I am entitled to it, whether you call it a cop-out, infantile, or a lie. Your stance cannot claim the same. You presume to infringe on the rights of me and my children by teaching your children to cavalierly destroy our dearly held beliefs and traditions, but you comfort yourself with the thought that you are only teaching them to adhere strictly to the truth as they see it and stand for truth and righteousness in every circumstance. Dress it up however you want, it is mean, and goes against the spirit of the Gospel. And when I say that, I am being as serious as I know how to be.
I will check the blog again, so that I will be able to read what you say in response, but I promise I have said my final word on the matter.

I am so sorry you are dropping out of the debate. It has been interesting and I hope you have learned something from the debate.

I hope you have a great Christmas…whether it is focused on Christ our Savior or has two central figures such as Christ and Santa, most everyone really enjoys this special time of year and I hope you do.

I also hope one day you will be able to admit, first to yourself, then to your family, then to the world, that Santa is a nice invention of man to give kids something to fantasize over. While this belief may be infantile, I know that you are not, and for that I am both happy and sad.

And as it was before, I hope we find strength in our beliefs…whether it my be in Christ our Lord or in the storied figure of a jolly old man that likes cookies. I know that we shall all be edified and strengthen by the truth…whether we find in early or late in life…since all learn and grow according his ability.

As I teach my children to stand up for the truth, I am glad you have stood up for all those who lie to children. Because at least we, and others, now know where we stand.

I have been involved in the naccle since the early days. Even before DKL made himself into a false character with a fake website. I have to say that I think the above thread is kinda crazy even by naccle standards. I don’t even do the whole Santa thing with my own kids but think there is a place for him at Christmas. Yeah I am lukewarm so sue me

One one side we have a mom who does not have a TV or allow her kids to eat sugar (just wait till the kids are older and start to form their own opinions. Fireworks…. I have seen this movie before) who claims that a belief in Santa is dangerous and downright Satanic and thinks that fellow LDS people that do the Santa thing are worshipping false gods.

On the other side another mom thinks that Santa is a part of her belief system. I have to admit that I had never considered Santa a part of anyones belief system. He is a folk tale. Nobody worships Santa esp not active LDS people.

Its almost too unreal to be real. I blame DKL based on his track record :)

Bbell, you forgot to mention that she feels it is her family’s duty to make sure that anybody who mentions santa to her family is told the truth about him, even if it is a small child who still believes.

Jim,
There is a difference between ordinances the Lord has taught us (some essential like baptism…others life sacrament) vs. a man-made fantasy as a symbol. If the Lord ever teaches us about Santa then my family will add him to our Christmas celebration.

Okay, you don’t see him as a lie but as a symbol. At which point do we stop having symbols in our celebrations that are more central to the holiday than the origin of the holiday itself? Santa’s visit is is often what is on kids’ minds when they dream about Christmas…it is not Christ birth. Assuming it is just a symbol and not a lie, is it okay for the symbol to be more central than Christ himself?

twinmom48: I think she probably doesn’t worship Santa, but she surely was not willing to back down regarding her belief that he is real. It does seem unreal to say the least.

KLC, I’m glad you’ve gotten a laugh out of my comments!

>134.

“naccle” = short for “bloggernacle” (itself originally short for “bloggernacle choir”)

The term refers to the collective mass of Mormon blogs, perhaps with special reference to Mormon group blogs. (You’ll have to get the DKL story from someone else; I wasn’t there.)

143 – Its a loooooooooooooong story, and it starts here >>>>> http://www.bloggernacle.org/boh-origins/

Interesting B. Russ, I skimmed thru the letter in your link. Sounds pretty funny if you ask me.

K, I envy you reading about BoH for the first time.

I am so glad to hear that heather is not real. She was a little too much to believe. Not funny enough to be Dana Carvey, but I wouldn’t put it past DKL or Aaron.

Sundee kept saying she couldn’t let it go. Were heather and Sundee just trying to keep the conversation going?

Well I just took a gander at everyone’s IP addresses… very interesting…

I do think it a little strange that an adult continues to say she believes in Santa.
I do admit that she probably means there is a special spirit during the holidays that makes people a little nicer, a little more giving…and if she wants to call that Santa fine. But, generally, if someone says they believe in Santa that means they believe in the fable character with rosy red cheeks.
I did learn alot during this exchange and I hope others did as well.
I hope this is alright to share, but one of the things that most touched my heart during this whole thing was looking at the link associated with Ron’s name and how he and his wife adopted a young boy.
Ron, thank you for that. People who adopt have a special place in my heart. And I am glad you make each others lives better. Thank you.

And even though my feelings are different regarding teaching children about Santa, I do want to thank you for making your child happy.

When you replied “SOMEBODY didn’t get her Hippopotamus for Christmas. (I LOVE that song by the way but my wife hates it.)”, I KNEW you were a great father!

Sundee, I hope you continue to make Christmas special for your children. I can tell Christmas means alot to you.

Again, we disagree…but as I said some while ago. “I may not disagree with what you believe (regarding teaching children about Santa) but I will defend your right to believe it.”

Ed, Are you ESO who started it?

Sorry about that…I saw that right after I pressed submit.

Sundee…Like I said before, if you believe in him as the Spirit of Giving fine, but I had never heard that before yesterday. But most of the time when people say they believe in Santa they mean the Jolly Old Man with a beard…if that is the case then…. I’ll leave it at that.

I too like the nice change in people during the holidays. It’s a special time of year.

I too believe you don’t worship Santa and that you worship Christ. No doubt about that. For the record, I NEVER thought that! But I still feel Santa detracts from the focus on Christ’s birth. But I admit one can find proper balance between the two.

You say Santa is a healthy part of childhood. I am willing to admit that Santa can be a healthy part a healthy childhood.

I truly have never been to a ward party with Santa. And I am glad for that. Of course I wouldn’t die if he were there, but I would definitely prefer he not be there. But, I know I am in the minority. So more realistically a compromise of some sort could definitely be worked out. The question was asked if he should be there. I say no. But I know I don’t always get what I want (nor should I). In fact, that would be a VERY BAD idea!

Like I’ve said previous, I don’t seek to “out” Santa. I want my children to have compassion, but an important principle I hope to instill in them is to be outspoken. Who knows…If that’s what I want then you’re probably safe right? Children never do what their parent wants :)

Have a screen name heather is no different than having something like Living in Zion or Proud Daughter of Eve. That may not be my name, but I have expressed my true feelings.

Ron, I thank you again for being a great father. Sundee, thanks for being a great mother. Though we may disagree we can unite as parents…always trying to do our best!

I do hope your season continues to be merry.

So why not be forthcoming about who you are? Why misrepresent yourself?

But not a woman, not with young children, and you use a different screen name usually, no?

heather=danithew, am I right?

Thanks for nothing danithew. Here’s a tip: If you’re going to pretend to be a chick from NYC, at least make her interesting. She needs to get “shelved” or something. We have standards around here, man, and you’re not meeting them.

Well, all I can say is that I wish people would quit using the term “pagan” like some sort of slander, and take everything on the merits instead.

I’m so lost right now. I guess that’s what I get for going to bed.
Merry Christmas everybody!

Orwell–thank you. That makes me feel better.

I grew up equating Pagan with Satan but that sure is wrong. I’m glad I learned better. I would have missed out on some great friends.

It’s like those people that protest TSA and privacy rights by stripping to go through security

Yeah. Right before Thanksgiving there was TSA Protest Day. This guy was from Utah:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/24/speedo-tsa-_n_788137.html

Wow! Talk about attention seeking behavior.

If comment 173 is true than from about 7 to 9 p.m. on Dec. 9 on this thread, Heather was communicating almost exclusively with his/herself.

No, it’s generally understood that about half of the commenters on any given thread (and one third of the permas on any given blog) are fictional. I can’t believe people still think DKL is real. That’s much more crazy than believing in Santa.

If the devil is real, then so is DKL. There must be opposition in all things.

Wait….What? annegb is David…or is this a joke?

Except by the five women who live in his house and boss him around.

You know, whoever Heather is, there’s no subject a true blooger can’t run right in the ground arguing about. So she must be a true blogger.

I must admit: I LOVE the irony of the commenter most opposed to the practice of parents pretending to be Santa actually pretending to be other commenters. Fantastic.

Sorry. I saw annegb’s comment and had to make it 200 :)

I am not sure that anyone can really be Prudence, but Anne is not David.

[...] Sundee, commenting on ESO’s post “Christmas Partying with the Saints” at Mormon Mentality: A boy had reached the age at which his mom determined he was old enough to understand about the Easter Bunny. She carefully explained that she and Dad were actually the ones who brought the baskets and hid the eggs for him to find on Easter. Then, realizing that his friends might still believe and not wanting her son to ruin the fun for them, she said, “Oh, but make sure you don’t tell your friends. We should keep the secret until their parents decide to tell them.” To which her son replied, “Believe me, Mom. I am NEVER going to go tell my friends that you think you are the Easter Bunny.” [...]

For all you believers and non-believers out there, young and old, Jew and Gentile, black and white, bond and free…I heard a temple talk given last year from a Temple president quoting Pres. Hinckley that, “Santa is for the children; the adult Christ is for the adults.”