I’m okay with it as long as significant ward funds aren’t used to hire him.
I don’t think I have ever seen one hired. I thought it was always the oldest High Priest.
West African Santa wore a full face mask. Down-right creepy even though we knew the guy.
MAC–wow. He totally looks like you are going to rob you. I had never thought of an African Santa–I guess if he is necessary, I could accept a black Santa pretty easily, as long as he didn’t wear a mask.
I’m willing to see a Christmas party Santa as long as I don’t see a Primary Easter egg roll Easter Bunny. Lesser of two evils, sigh.
I say no. Kids get plenty of Santa in other Christmas activities. The ward party is one place where Christmas should be just about Jesus.
I agree with MCQ. The ward party should be focused on the birth of the Savior. The kids get enough of santa elsewhere.
I say yes. Our ward has a nice dinner, a lovely program focused on Christ, then at the very end, while folks are cleaning up, Santa is stationed in a corner of the gym. A talented sister made the Santa suit, a kind brother volunteers to wear it, and the kids have a ball. For lots of families it’s the only time the kids will see a Santa, and certainly the only time they will see Santa and get a picture without having to pay a fee.
I say yes to Santa. My kids know he is a fairy tale but its still fun.
Whether or not a family teaches their kids to believe in Santa is up to them but I REALLY wish he would be left out of the ward party. Or that the ward party would not be held at the church. Santa has no more business there than Mickey Mouse.
Anyone who is against Santa is just a bad person, plain and simple.
In this culture (North America for those of your visiting from elsewhere) Santa has just as big a part in Christmas as does Jesus. Worldly point of view? Yes, but then Christmas has become a pretty worldly holiday.
I don’t see Christmas trees in the Bible either. I say: Santa Yes, Easter Bunny no.
But some Mormons call the latter the “Ether Bunny”, so whatever.
when i had the dubious honor of serving as the now defunct activities director, we would have Santa there at the beginning of the party–say from 5:00 to 6:00 or so. that way families with little ones or those who wanted to enjoy the whole the Santa experience could arrive early and every body else could just come for the dinner and program. this way we were able to end on a more meaningful note with a Christ centered message and go home with the warm fuzzies. start secular, end spiritual. seemed to work out pretty well. never had a complaint anyway, which is sayin somethin.
If it were up to me, there would be no Santa, but if he is there, the Santa to Jesus ration ought to be at least 1:2.
For those of you so against having Santa at the ward Christmas party, I have a question: why is a tree okay, but not Santa? I’m not trying to be snotty, I really am curious. There are so many parts of our celebration of Christmas that have absolutely nothing to do with Christ whatsoever, yet are considered integral parts of the celebration of the holiday. I’ve never heard anyone raise an objection to having a decorated tree at a Christmas party, yet it’s roots are far more pagan and unrelated to Christ. Even the date we celebrate Christmas itself is objectionable. So is it just the figurative line in the sand, where everything up to that point is okay, but you have to draw the line somewhere?
I’m on the side of having no problem with Santa at the party. While I don’t think he should be the focal point by any means, it seems a nice tradition to have him at the very end (or the very beginning, as the case may be) for the kids. Santa has become one of those integral parts of the holiday. The kids love the experience, and for my kids, it’s a great opportunity to get them excited about giving gifts to each other as well.
I disagree that Santa and trees have nothing to do with Christ whatsoever. And I disagree that the date we celebrate Christmas is objectionable. And I think it is ridiculous to give up wonderful traditions because their roots may include some pagan background.
The tree may have a pagan background but since we believe that God has spoken to His children at many times and in many ways, we can find compatible truths within pagan traditions. For example the tree is evergreen, appearing to live while other trees appear to die – thus it can symbolize the eternal life offered us by Christ.
The tree does not necessarily take the focus of Christmas off of Christ. I feel that Santa does. While I respect other parents’ rights to handle the Santa issue as they wish, I feel strongly that he should not be brought to the same place we try to teach our kids to respect and revere and where we teach them of Christ.
Personally, I will not be teaching my child to believe in Santa. I was raised to believe in Santa and I don’t remember any trauma over discovering the truth nor did it shake my testimony but I’m not comfortable with deliberately deceiving her, which is what I’d be doing.
I believe in Santa Claus, and that, for one year at least, he worked at the mall in Albuquerque, NM. My 7- or 8-year old niece had come to stay with us for a couple of weeks before Christmas, and we took her to the mall to see Santa. When it came her turn to sit on his lap, he greeted her with a “Hello, Jenica! Have you been a good girl this year?” Jenica is her real name, but we always either called her “Jeni” or “Jake,” and there wasn’t any point in time where we could have told him her name. Only the REAL Santa Claus would have known her real name without being told.
I am reminded of a recent post at My Life is Average. The commenter said she had been given the job by her parents to tell her little sister that there was no Santa Claus. The sister’s response? “Yeah, right. Next thing, you are going to try to convince me that Harry Potter isn’t real, either.” Hee.
Santa brings presents to help us remember that Heavenly Father gave us the best present of all: His Son, Jesus Christ.
I have no objection whatsoever to Santa. I believe in him myself, and have taught my kids all about him. We have written letters to him and visited him every Christmas. We leave him cookies and milk every Christmas eve and every Christmas morning he leaves us a note in the fireplace which we read before any presents are opened (and my kids are teenagers now). In short, I love Santa and I have serious problems with any Santa deniers out there.
But the ward party is not Santa’s gig. The end.
I am saddened by the comments here that Santa is secular, inappropriate, and should not be at ward parties. I am even more saddened to think about children who will not be taught about Santa at home.
We had a good Bishop (I have never had a bad Bishop, come to think of it, but that’s because anyone who would accept that calling and attempt to fulfill it is a good Bishop in my opinion) several years ago who adamantly opposed Santa in every way. He absolutely refused to allow Santa to have any part or mention at the ward Christmas party, and made sure that every adult member of the ward understood that, in his opinion, teaching children to believe in Santa was wrong and no righteous parent would ever do such a thing. He did not have children yet (he and his wife eventually adopted two beautiful girls), and I chalked his attitude up to never having had the experience of playing Santa and witnessing the true joy that Santa brings. I did not agree with his feelings, but hey, he was the Bishop, so I was willing to abide by his rules about the ward party since I have no desire to ever be a Bishop and so don’t want to start criticizing the Bishop’s decisions (I am a woman, so it won’t happen anyway, but you know what I mean).
That being said, I believe that all the research will show that children learn best by example. And I think this applies to all children, even those of us who are long out of the single digit ages. After all, a perfect Father in Heaven sent His Son, our Savior, not only to atone for our sins, but also to show us the way to live–by setting the perfect example. So, what better way to celebrate our Savior’s birth than to encourage children to believe in a being who does nothing but give selflessly to all the children of the world? This beautiful example of a man is happy, loving, and delights in secretive (shows up at midnight, sneaks into the house, and does not expect a big reception or any kind of hoopla in return) giving to every deserving child in the world. And yes, to be honest, as a parent I have used the “Santa doesn’t bring toys to badly behaved children” belief to motivate proper behavior, but has Santa ever really called a child “bad”? Not that I know of. So, to me, Santa is one of the best examples of Christ-like love there is in the world, and as such deserves not only to be invited to the ward Christmas party, but also to be an honored and warmly received guest at such an event.
And anyone who says they won’t teach their children about Santa Claus is not only a Scrooge, but also does not understand the glorious type and example that Santa provides to children everywhere about unconditional Christ-like love and selfless giving.
For Christ-like love we can always teach them about Christ, who gave them everlasting life and exaltation, not a sweater they’ll outgrow next year.
Frankly, I believe anyone who teaches their children to believe in Santa without believing in Santa themselves is violating the trust of their children. I can’t and won’t do that and I don’t care if it makes you think I’m a Scrooge. It’s better than my children knowing me for a liar.
I have some good memories of Santa at Christmas parties. One of the very best was when our bishop was Santa and my 6 year old son was totally converted to Santa because he knew his name! Santa was talking to all the kids and they never suspected it was the bishop.
The other one is when Santa told my darling girl, age 6 that he would definitely bring her a nutcracker. This was a few days before Christmas. Boy, I searched all over and finally found one! She’s gotten some form of nutcracker every year since and has a very nice collection. I asked him (a ward member) “why did you say that?” and he said, “well, it seemed like a simple request.”
I’m thought provoked, though, by the poster that says if your kids find out everything you said about Santa wasn’t true, will they think everything they’ve been told about Jesus isn’t true. Makes ya wonder.
I was raised being told Santa wasn’t real and I will raise my kids the same way. Wards should not be using tithing to perpetuate such a lie!
Heather, get a grip. Wards do not use tithing for Christmas parties. The larger issue though, is why you have no faith in Santa. Just because you don’t know him doesn’t mean he isn’t real.
MCQ,How do they pay for such parties then? I believe it is harmful to raise kids in environment where everyone is lying to them (about Santa). And yes it is lying because we all know it’s not true. Regarding faith…I haven’t seen Satan, but maybe they are one and the same. Just rearrange the letters!
SOMEBODY didn’t get her Hippopotamus for Christmas. (I LOVE that song by the way but my wife hates it.)
I guess we better get rid of the Christmas Party altogether then. Or at least wait till April to have it since it’s a lie that Jesus was born on December 25.
It’s only a lie if you don’t believe it. I for one believe in Santa Claus even if the Real Santa Clause died 1600 years ago, people still carry out his mission in his name. For the last 3 years, I have put on the emblems of his office and represented him at a small Christmas Party in a friend’s home. I have had to retire because my good friend Wesley (age 5) now finds it suspicious that his friend Ron is always late to his Christmas Party and always misses the guest of honor. it goes back to Santa Claus being, not a lie, but a symbol of Christ.
But if you’re going to start comparing Santa to Satan, then you have bigger issues that we probably can’t address here.
And #14, bookslinger,
I have never heard anybody call the Easter Bunny the “ether bunny” but if I did I’d be hard pressed not to slap them.
I absolutely do believe in Santa–he is a symbol or embodiment of the spirit of selfless giving, and that is exactly what I have taught my children as they have reached the age to understand. By the way, my youngest found out that Santa was not a real person from friends before I had talked to him about it, and he was absolutely devastated. Not because he felt like I lied, but because he loved believing in Santa. He was totally comforted when I explained that Santa is real, but is a Spirit and type. In addition, as I have talked to my children about Santa and they have become old enough, they have been overjoyed to help us play Santa each year by helping fill stockings. I am proud to share this tradition with them, and I have never believed that Santa was a lie. Not when I was a child, and not as a Mother. I am sad for anyone who is denied the joy that Santa can bring. Just plain sad.
Ron, we can still celebrate the birth of Christ in December, just like I celebrate my birthday on the first day of the month of my half birthday (my birthday is in December and we celebrate it on June 1st). There is not problem because as long as we don’t lie about it being in December. Bust regarding Santa…we are lying.
“It’s only a lie if you don’t believe it”? While you are correct in saying that a lie is a known untruth expressed as a truth, I would suggest not lying to us about your belief in Satan (oops Freudian slip). While history speaks nicely of St. Nicholas of Myra and tells us he was a great man, I wonder whether he should have a major role in our ward holiday parties. I think not! Let us remember Christ for who he is and what he does and not through a figure whose characteristics and actions have been molded to fit the needs of commercialized society which greatly lacks faith in the man who St. Nicholas himself worshiped!
And one more thing–your kids who don’t believe in Santa are the ones who ruin Santa for my kids, and I kind of resent that. It might be a good idea to teach your kids to respect the fact that my kids believe in Santa, and your kids should not ruin that for them.
I think its overkill to get too judgemental about allowing your kids to believe in Santa. Relax and enjoy the holiday season.
One thing that is true about the naccle is that you can always find somebody to get unhinged about almost anything no matter how benign.
Sorry, but my kids will not be taught to lie, but declare the truth. Of course, I wouldn’t want them to go about yelling to every child that been lied to about Santa, but if the kids are talking about Santa of course my kids will tell them that we (my husband I) have taught them truthfully about Santa during their childhood.
I just remembered one of the funniest jokes I ever heard, though. A boy had reached the age at which his mom determined he was old enough to understand about the Easter Bunny. She carefully explained that she and Dad were actually the ones who brought the baskets and hid the eggs for him to find on Easter. Then, realizing that his friends might still believe and not wanting her son to ruin the fun for them, she said, “Oh, but make sure you don’t tell your friends. We should keep the secret until their parents decide to tell them.” To which her son replied, “Believe me, Mom. I am NEVER going to go tell my friends that you think you are the Easter Bunny.”
Equating Santa with Satan?
Teaching your kids that it is their duty to destroy other children’s belief in Santa Clause?
I need to understand why you hate Christmas so much.
Out of curiosity, Heather, how old are your kids, and did you enjoy Christmas as a child?
Actually, I love Christmas. It’s my second favorite holiday of the year! Of course equating Santa with Satan is overkill, but to an extent I believe it true. Santa does draw attention (a lot of attention!) away from Christ, just as Satan would desire.
They are not being taught that it is their duty to destroy others’ beliefs. If the topic comes up I want them to speak what they have been taught and not lie to make the other kids feel good.
Sundee, I have three kids. Twins age 1 and a girl age 4 (and we’re done! :) ) Of course I loved Christmas growing up…and I still love it (see first paragraph). And I want my kids to love it too! But I also don’t want to lie to them or have them be lied to by anyone else. And I want them to be strong individuals that aren’t afraid to speak up to others no matter the topic.
Any more questions?
After this discussion I found this and wanted to post it:
Santa Claus and Satan’s Cause
The modern-day Santa Claus is an American version of Saint Nicholas, a fourth century Roman Catholic bishop from Asia Minor who was noted for his good deeds and gift giving. This tradition first spread throughout Europe, and then found its way to America by the early Dutch settlers.
Since God’s word warns us to BEWARE of tradition (Col. 2:8), we shouldn’t be surprised to find the Devil right in the middle of the world’s most celebrated holiday. Lucifer’s desire has always been to dethrone God and exalt himself (Isa. 14:12-15). He desires worship (Luke 4:7; II Ths. 2:3-4). Perhaps you’ve never thought of it, but please note how Satan robs the Lord Jesus Christ of His glory by spreading the Santa Claus tradition…
SANTA IS ETERNAL
A child knows nothing of his beginning. To a child, Santa has just always existed.
JESUS CHRIST IS ETERNAL
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” (Rev. 1:8)
SANTA LIVES IN THE NORTH
Tradition holds that Santa Claus lives at the North Pole, a place ABOVE the rest of us.
JESUS CHRIST LIVES IN THE NORTH
“Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.” (Psa. 48:2)
SANTA WEARS RED CLOTHING
Santa wears a red furry suit.
JESUS CHRIST WEARS RED CLOTHING
“And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.” (Rev. 19:13)
SANTA HAS WHITE HAIR
Santa is always pictured as an old man with white hair like wool.
JESUS CHRIST HAS WHITE HAIR
“His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;” (Rev. 1:14)
SANTA FLIES AROUND GIVING GIFTS
Santa has the ability to defy the laws of gravity and fly around giving gifts to people.
JESUS CHRIST ASCENDED AND GAVE GIFTS UNTO MEN
“But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” (Eph. 4:7-8)
SANTA IS COMING SOON
During the Christmas season it is emphasized over and over that “Santa is coming”.
JESUS CHRIST IS COMING SOON
“He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.” (Rev. 22:20)
SANTA IS OMNISCIENT
Children are taught that Santa “knows when you’ve been good, and he knows when you’ve been bad”.
JESUS CHRIST IS OMNISCIENT
“The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.” (Pro. 15:3) “And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?” (Mat. 9:4)
SANTA IS OMNIPRESENT
Santa must be omnipresent, because he has the ability to visit over a billion homes in a twenty-four hour period. That’s over 1100 per second!
JESUS CHRIST IS OMNIPRESENT
“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Mat. 18:20)
SANTA IS OMNIPOTENT
He has the ability to carry presents for over a billion children.
JESUS CHRIST IS OMNIPOTENT
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” (Mat. 28:18)
SANTA HAS SPIRIT HELPERS CALLED ELVES
Webster, 1828: “ELF…a spirit, the night-mar; a ghost, hag, witch”
JESUS CHRIST HAS SPIRIT HELPERS CALLED ANGELS
“Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.” (Mat. 4:11)
SANTA – SANAT – SATAN?
Sanat Kumara is worshipped by some new age groups as God. H.P. Blavatsky, the mother of the new age movement, said on page 350 of her book, The Secret Doctrine, Vol. 2: “The name isn’t important. It is the letters”. “Santa” has the same letters as “Satan”! According to G.A. Riplinger, “Ole Nick” is listed as the name of a fallen angel in the Dictionary of Fallen Angels. (New Age Bible Versions, Gail Riplinger, pg. 53)
Friend, don’t glorify Satan by giving the glory and attributes of Jesus Christ to Santa Claus! Santa is a COUNTERFEIT GOD, and you are honoring Satan when you teach your children to believe in Santa! Christians should teach their children the TRUTH. We should glorify God by teaching our children about Jesus Christ and His saving grace!
“They are not being taught that it is their duty to destroy others’ beliefs. If the topic comes up I want them to speak what they have been taught and not lie to make the other kids feel good.”
Why not just teach them to remove themselves from that conversation. then they don’t have to lie to make the other kids feel good but they don’t have to destroy their belief either.
Nope. My kids are not being taught remove themselves, but instead stand up for that which they believe and know is true. That is a greater life lesson and something that they will need.
heather, I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone as absurdly bitter about Santa. Wow. Of all the things to get worked up about that detract from Christ, I can think of a few that are more deserving and justifiably evil than Santa. So since you are so fixated on the whole Santa/Satan letter-swapping convenience, how does that work in other languages where that whole letter-swapping trick doesn’t work?
I have five children–an eighteen year old boy, a seventeen year old girl, twin 14 year old boys, and a ten year old boy. (Yes–the first four in less than four years. I do not recommend this! :o) ) Forgive me, but as my children are older, I have had more experience as a parent, and I will say this..I had all kinds of plans and aspirations for what kind of children and even adults my children would become when they were as small as yours, Heather. Good luck with that!
Heather I am afraid that even for the ‘naccle you are a little bit unhinged. See #43. She is spot on. I actually think you should be nominated for a niblet in overwroughtedness for your #39.
Sundee–we also don’t do Santa in my family (the one I am the mother of). I can’t see how that makes me a scrooge, but even if it did, I’m pretty OK with that.
BTW–I think that teaching children to be givers by example is important but I think that helping them have numerous real-world role models of that behavior would be much more powerful than a fake one.
I am not too concerned about my kids spoiling it for other kids. I suspect the Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, and other kids they attend school with and play with will beat them to it. The world does not revolve around your folk traditions, and your kids will figure that out eventually.
I recognize that this letter-swapping business does not hold for all languages, but is a convenient tool in English. Read general conference talks…they use other useful tools that only work in English. Do you refer to them as tricks to deceive? I think not and I hope you grant me the same linguistic creativity. I’m not work p about anything…They question was asked and I responded and now I defend. And yes, I can think if many things more evil than Santa but they do not fit into this discussion (let’s stay on topic please). If you would like to start another thread elsewhere then please do and we can discuss the evil nature of other things there.
that’s great that you are older than me and more experience in raising your kids the way you did. But I will not. I am truly sorry you have not been able to raise your kids like you planned to. I hope they still turned out great. Life is full of adjustments, compromises, and changes in thought and practice. I hope your other youthful “plans and aspirations” have not met the same fate as those related to child rearing.
Let me just refer to scripture. Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Choose you this day whom ye will have as central figures in your life and the lives of your children during this Christmas season. Whether it be Jesus Christ our Lord or the secular gift-giving Santa Claus, but as for me and my family, we will focus on the Lord!
Let me try a variation of the letter-swapping trick with you.
You responded to my comment #40 with:
“My kids are not being taught remove themselves, but instead stand up for that which they believe and know is true. That is a greater life lesson and something that they will need.”
let me rephrase that it to something that you didn’t mean to say (just like swaping santa for satan):
My kids are being taught that other children are not entitled to their beliefs unless they match mine.
Great argument Ron. I can see you passed the 3rd grade using those attack/defense techniques.
I am not the first to look at relations between words. Another example is devil, evil, vile, ill. Which are all related.
And Ron you aren’t the first to completely change sentences to fit your narrative…those sleazy politicians during election season do it all the time!
Now to address your swapping (creating a whole new sentence) technique:
I have no problem with what your kids believe (see #46), but for me and my family we will not be lying about Santa. And when asked if there should be a Santa at a Ward party I vehemently so NO for several reasons, several which have been discussed in this forum. So believe what you will, lie to your children if you will, do whatever you want, but me and my family will not and if we do encounter and the topic comes up we will neither go along with your lie nor “remove ourselves” to allow you and your family live a lie. If you would like to remove yourselves then please do! And teach your child to remove themselves in any future disagreements or difference.
Devil, Evil, Vile are related.
Satan and Santa are not.
So if Santa will be at your ward christmas party, will you boycott the event and instruct your children to educate their friends in primary about the horrible, evil lies their parents are telling them about Santa Clause?
When I summarize your points as “My kids are being taught that other children are not entitled to their beliefs unless they match mine.” I think that’s still an accurate summary:
But I can understand your wanting to dismiss it as 3rd grade and sleazy politicianlike because it’s hard to drum up your riteous indignation over the lies others are teaching their children when you say it that way.
I am 100% comfortable with Heather not attending the Ward Christmas party. I am also OK if she chooses not to attend the Ward Halloween party or Ward 4th of July breakfast, either.
As for me and my family, we believe in parties, we seek after parties and we don’t have a problem if Santa decides to celebrate Christ’s birth with us.
I like how you crystallize the whole point of the Santa question. We need to ask ourselves if Christ is joining us to celebrate Santa Claus or if Santa is joining us to celebrate Christ. As long as we can keep ourselves to option 2, I think we’ll be OK.
maybe i was wrong about 3rd grade (riteous? It’s righteous. clause? a clause is a pair or group of words that consists of a subject and a predicate)
If Santa is at the ward Christmas party then we will not be there. Will I instruct m kids to incorrect errors yes…of course. You don’t want your kids to correct things that are incorrect?
Well, I surprised that you still think that is a correct statement you quoted above because in #48 I was quite honest when I don’t care what you do in your house…yet you still think that I think they are not entitled to their own beliefs. Of course they can believe whatever they want. Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised you still believe that statement since you obviously believe many crazy things.
And I stand corrected. I never meant to imply you or your actions were sleazy…just 3rd grade…eerrrr….2nd grade-like.
Living in Zion,
Thanks for letting me know you won’t be depressed if I’m not there….I was worried knowing your fragile state.
And you’re family is for parties? Awesome, I’m glad you’ve taught your kids to have the right priorities in life. I can rest assured knowing the world is safe in your hands. As for me and my family, we love Christ, the gospel, learninig, languages, science and mathematics, art and theatre, and traveling.
The crux of my issue with you is that I do not believe it is your (or your kids’) place to correct my children unless you are protecting them or another from IMMINENT harm.
I’m also offended by your intentional choice of a word with negative connotations “Lie” to imply that my allowing my children to believe in Santa Claus is somehow malicious and requires that you take action to correct it.
I love it! Santa celebrating Christ’s birth is exactly how I look at it. And I am thinking, after all this discussion, that Santa is in the eye of the beholder, anyway, so Heather–Santa probably is evil in your world. But he truly is not evil in my world, nor a lie, and I agree with Ron when he says that your kids are sadly being raised to believe other kids are entitled to their beliefs as long as they match yours.
What about when the Jewish kids at school are discussing their beliefs about a Messiah? What happens when Joey, who has two moms, tells your kid that his moms are good people? I shudder to think!
The brethren teach nothing if they don’t teach that we should have respect and tolerance for others’ beliefs whether we agree or not. “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God…” (sound familiar?). And that means that what you might consider false or a lie might be a dearly held belief for another, so then what are you going to do? Quite a dilemma for you, I bet. And even more so for your poor children who must boldly declare the truth in order to be righteous as far as you are concerned. Will they follow the brethren and allow others the same privilege, or boldly declare the truth as you see it? Wow!
See, sometimes it is best to respectfully withdraw and keep our opinions to ourselves. And in my opinion, a belief in Santa is good, and so my children have been encouraged to respect other childrens’ rights to believe even if they understand Santa differently than my children do. That is why we try to live close to the Spirit– so that we can discern in the moment what we ought to do and say.
And as for my children and how they have grown up, I couldn’t be more pleased. They are good, happy, loving, giving, tolerant people with strong testimonies. They do, however, make mistakes. And all of the things that I thought I wanted for them have become secondary as I have learned that I do not have the power or ability to shape who they are. They are who they are, and I am blessed to have the privilege of learning and growing along with them as I do my best to set an example that I would be pleased for them to follow. They don’t always follow my example, by the way, and that is sometimes not a bad thing, as I am not perfect.
Another thing that concerns me is that you have now included in your definition of truth the idea that if you swap letters in a word you will get to the true meaning of that word. Where in the scriptures or GC talks do we learn about that little trick? Or is there some truth that exists outside of those places? The arguments just don’t stand up to scrutiny.
I will say again, Santa is in the eye of the beholder, and I, for one, am glad to say that I believe, and so do my children. He brings us joy and leads us to do good, so by my definition and understanding, this means that Santa is of God. And again, I am sad for you that you do not think so. But hey, it takes all kinds, doesn’t it?
Just to be clear, I don’t sit here looking forward to any chance I can get to tell your kids that Santa is a lie. I’m not salivating over such an opportunity.
However, related to this conversation, there are two things I will (or will not) teach my children:
1. I will not lie to my kids about Santa
2. I will teach my children that if they encounter something they have been taught is not true then they should stand up for what they believe.
Now, if my kids ever encounter kids that try to convince them of the veracity of Santa Claus I hope my kids remember the two things above.
Now, I only use the word lie here because it fits. A lie is a known untruth expressed as truth. I think we both know “lie” fits. I am sorry you are offended. I never once meant to offend anyone in this forum, but only desire share my thoughts (and I know many that agree). I don’t believe I aver tried to take action to correct your parenting methods. But when it involves public situations (ward party, kids talking to each other whether at school or playground,…) I do hope my children stand up for the truth that they have been taught. While I acknowledge there is most likely no imminent harm and no malice intend, I still think it is wrong, misguided, and I don’t want it at my Ward Christmas Party.
# 52 – Heather
2 Nephi 2:25 – ” Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.”
Me and Santa at the ward Christmas party, experiencing joy with our fellow Saints, celebrating Christ’s birth. Sounds great.
Wow, Sundee, you have completely misinterpreted almost everything. I read your comment and get tired just thinking about correcting all your misstatements. It’s like when I use to grade Calculus Homework in college and I got to the student that was lowest in the class and I knew it would take 3 or 4 times as long to grade as the others. I left that homework until the last to grade…hoping I had enough energy to finish. So, unfortunately I do the same here, I will try to get back to finish all the corrections in your comment. Here are a few, which I hope are sufficient for a short time.
I think you misunderstand. I think he is well intentioned but misguided and draws away from the true meaning of Christmas.
He is not a lie in your world? What planet do you live on?
See above, but my children are not being taught that others not entitled to their beliefs but my kids are taught to boldly exclaim their beliefs when faced with untruths. Similar to Voltaire’s exclamation about freedom of speech, I may not agree with what you believe but I will defend your right to believe it.
Regarding my kids going to school with Jewish or Muslim children…hello! I live in New York City…they will be going to school with other children. This is more than a thought experiment for me…this is my life. There is a slight difference in that Jewish children are taught Judaism from their parents that honestly believe that to the be truth. Your children are being taught something you honestly know NOT to be true. So please, respect Judaism and Islam (and other religions) by not comparing this conversation with their whole-hearted beliefs. It’s a little embarassing.
With that I’m tired. I may get back to correct all your other errors later.
sorry i meant to say I may disagree with what you believe but will defend your right to believe it. Sorry
Heather – Please don’t try to get me to believe that anyone (including you) has ever raised children without ever lying to them.
It is true. Sorry to give hope to humanity.
You have a four year old girl and you are telling me you never lied to her?
I try to speak as honestly as I can. With respect to saying I’ve never lied to her, I can’t be certain. But I can honestly say I don’t remember a single instance where I have lied to her. Subtle difference but I thought I should honest.
You have never intentionally used a half-truth or partial explanation when, in your judgement, your child isn’t ready to know the entire truth?
A half-truth, half-lie statement…no. A partial explanation is not a lie. A lie is a known untruth expressed as a truth. A partial explanation can be all truth but without lies, just missing some details. For example, when proving integration methods in calculus you can show people how to integrate and avoid all the messing details of convergence and such or show them all the messy details. Professors don’t teach the messy details until they become upperclassmen. But they weren’t lying before when they showed them how to integrate. They only showed them the truths they could understand.
It appears a similar discussion has occurred on this very site:
I think you are splitting hairs in #64. I can think of plenty of circumstances where a partial explanation qualifies as an outright lie according to the definition you have given on this thread.
I just don’t think lying and child-rearing are as a cut and dry as you make it out to be. Children believe all kinds of fictional characters are real at different points in their learning, and parents are usually complicit in this deception until they figure out the truth on their own because it is good for their development. I don’t see why Santa Clause should be any different.
Do you make sure your children know that every fictional character they are exposed to (Barney, Dora, the Cat in the Hat, the Hungry Little Caterpillar) on TV or in writing is in fact not real? If you don’t, then you are by your own definition, intentionally perpetuating a lie.
Of course, child rearing is not cut and dry…I’ve never claimed it was…ask anyone who has tried. But a partial explanation that contains all true statements and does not deceive is not a lie and I try to do that every time I explain something to my children.
Regarding television, my husband and I don’t own one…so that’s easy. And yes, every story we read with our children we make clear is a STORY. We also like reading the Book of Mormon and short stories about historical figures and we make clear that those are real.
The way you are representing the Santa Clause issue is very cut and dry. Most parents don’t push the Santa narrative very hard with their children – but they also allow their kids to discover he is a fictional character on their own. It’s not inherently wrong to allow your children to discover at least some of the differences between fact and fiction themselves. You are certainly free to choose not to do that, but I don’t know that it is fair to characterize those of us who raise children and make a different choice in regard to this particular fictional character as willfully perpetuating a lie.
taking them to santa claus in the mall is perpetuating the lie, having them write letters to santa claus is perpetuating the lie, asking them what they want from santa is perpetuating the lie, leaving cookies out christmas eve is perpetuating the lie. How many kids have you seen cry on santa’s lap at the mall…is that not “pushing hard”?
If you do those things then I saw you are perpetuating the lie. If you know that and are fine with that, then fine. But know that I am not mischaracterizing your actions. You are perpetuating that lie.
but of course you’re free to do that
i guess a fella like Walt Disney must seem like the biggest lie pusher of all time to some people. it’s all a matter of perspective, i suppose.
this exhausting debate calls for a haiku, no? i call this one Christmas Party Perils or Mormons be Warned
evil’s lurking, wrought of lies…
Santa! get thee hence!
i am a little sad for you, heather. but i genuinely wish you and yours well. go have some hot chocolate with caramel drizzles and whipped cream. add some sprinkles if it might bring you joy. and Merry Christmas!
thanks. Merry christmas to you too!
Sorry but we don’t have ice cream or sweets at our house, but a good apple and slice of watermelon sounds nice!
I resent the characterization that Santa is not a dearly held belief to me. He is.
Also, by your definition, the Savior told lies repeatedly when speaking in parables. Is Santa not a delightful parable that teaches of Christ himself? That is how I choose to think and believe about Santa.
Truth is relative. Some of the things that I hold as most sacred and true are called lies and deceptions by others. So call Santa a lie if you want. He lives in my heart and mind and the hearts and minds of children of all ages the world over. And I hope he always does.
I think that perhaps you think of Santa as the embodiment of greed at Christmas time. Children asking for material things and all that. And that is what some focus on. As I said before, Santa is in the eye of the beholder. I find it sad that your eye beholds a lie.
Merry Christmas to you and to your children in whatever form that merriment comes. And peace on earth, too. And good will toward all men, whether you believe in Santa or not.
Haha. Fine, if you are going to argue you really believe in Santa then whatever…how can one argue against infantile beliefs. Let’s let the conversation end here.
As for what I believe, I seek some type of confirmation something like historical accounts in scripture or confirmation by the Spirit.
How is the Savior lying when telling parables? Parables are told as instructive ways of conveying an idea or message. Saying Santa is real and having your kid cry on an imposters lap at the mall is not at all similar and saying so is quite disingenuous.
Truth is relative? I would suggest you doing a little reading on what prophets have said regarding relative vs absolute truth.
No, I don’t necessarily think of Santa Claus as an embodiment of greed. That’s not the issue at all. Now you’re reaching for things…things that aren’t true.
My eye beholds the truth. Just admit Santa doesn’t exist and that when you say he does then you are lying. As long as you are okay with that then I can’t take that right away from you. Lie to your children if you would like. Most people do it…it’s ok. But don’t tell me I see a Santa as a lie and that he is not a lie. He is! But it’s ok. Why do you have to lie to me? You can lie to your children…but lie to me too? Come on…
Merry Christmas to all :)
Just to be clear. I have chosen not to tell my children that Santa is real. Others can do what they wish. But let’s all be honest here. If we tell our children he is real then we are telling them untruths as if they are truths. That’s fine, but we don’t need to lie here, in this forum, about believing he is really.
Just because Santa in not a person does not mean he is not real. Santa is truly the spirit of giving at Christmas time. That spirit is real. Ergo, Santa is real to me. And that is not infantile. It is optimistic and idealistic perhaps, but infantile? Really? I don’t think so.
The core of my disagreement with you, Heather, is that you say that encouraging my children (and someday my grandchildren) to believe in Santa is perpetuating a lie. It is not. I live on earth, the sky is blue, and I believe in Santa.
The other problem I have with you is that you would encourage your children to out Santa to my children and somehow you feel justified and somewhat self-righteous in doing so. I’ll tell you what–let’s make a deal. I won’t teach my kids to expose your children to the beauty of sugar and TV if you won’t teach your kids to out Santa. Deal?
I lie to my daughter all the time. Just today I told her that there were no more fruit snacks. It was a lie. I don’t know how I sleep at night.
Santa is the spirit of giving? If you randomly ask 100,000 people who Santa is how many will respond “He is the spirit of giving”? I will say 5 tops! And that’s generous. That’s not the discussion here. Here we are discussing whether someone should dress up as the embodiment of “the spirit of giving” ;) at a ward christmas party. We are talking about a the physical Santa. If we want a symbol or figure that symbolizes giving why not look to the Savior Jesus Christ, who gave his life that all may live? Why replace the Savior who is the central figure to our faith, the literal Son of God with a false figure such as Santa?
Yes I believe you live on earth and I too know the sky is blue. But Santa..I doubt you believe in the personified being we call Santa but the spirit of giving during the holiday season exists.
My encouragement to my children is broader than just outing Santa. My encouragement is for them to speak up and tell the truth and to never back down. If Santa is outed along the way then I am sorry, but that’s not gonna change. I don’t mean to come off self-righteous. I like coming to these forums because I believe I have as much to learn hear as I do to teach. Sorry but no deal. We love sugary desserts on our birthdays…that’s 4 times a years! So delicious!
Orwell…that’s kinda funny :)
I am having a hard time letting this go.
Just to be clear–I tell my kids that Santa is real. My children range in age from 18 to 10, and I still tell them Santa is real. And having polled them this afternoon, every one of them believes in Santa. Did I ever tell them that a little jolly elf in a red suit with a magic sleigh and flying reindeer in all actuality and truthfulness lives and breathes on the earth? No. Did I take my kids to scream on Santa’s lap at the mall? No. Well, we do have one picture of our oldest on Santa’s lap and he is crying, but to be fair, we were at the mall to do some shopping, he saw Santa, he begged to get in line to see him, and then got frightened when he actually got to the lap. I find the picture cute, and it reminds me of a time when my son was young and still believed in magic, even if the mall Santa turned out to be scarier up close than my son anticipated. I didn’t push my son to sit on Santa’s lap, so I don’t think it counts as pushing him screaming onto the mall Santa’s lap. I read my kids stories about Santa, and his reindeer. I also read scriptural stories of Christ’s birth to them. I recited “Twas the Night Before Christmas” to them. I shared various versions of A Christmas Carol with them (our current favorite is A Muppet Christmas Carol) and while there is no mention of Santa or overt mention of the birth of the Savior in this story I find it to be one of the most instructive and “warm fuzzy” stories in all of the collection of Christmas literature that exists. Not the most, but one of the most. I also enjoy sharing other Christmas stories with my kids, and many of these storied mention Santa. I collect Christmas stories to a degree, in fact.
Anyway, the point is, my children asked me many times over the years whether or not Santa was real. My answer, then and now, is a resounding, “Yes!” My children also asked me if I believed in Santa, and again, I answered both then and now with a resounding, “Yes!” These are true statements. Santa is real, and I believe in Santa.
Also, when I said truth is relative, I misspoke. I should have said truth is subjective. Often, it is. Yes, there is such a thing as absolute truth, but how often can one truly access this absolute truth? And how does one do so? Through the Spirit. And the Spirit tells me that Santa is good, and real, and absolutely wonderful. And this is why I resent the idea that you would encourage your kids to call me a liar. Now, as to the original question of this post, I do think Santa has a place at the ward Christmas party. But, as I mentioned much earlier in this thread, I am not the Bishop, nor do I aspire to his position, so it is not for me to decide. Thank heaven for that.
I am guessing our kids will want all the Santa, sugar, & TV they can get regardless of what we think.
A really hard time letting this go, as it turns out. My mother taught me that Santa is the Spirit of Giving, and I taught the same to my children. That makes six of us plus my Mom, 7. Plus her parents and all my aunts and uncles and cousins. That makes about 50. Plus several of my co-workers that I talked to today over the course of reading and contributing to this blog. They numbered about 10 at least. And I don’t think I even know 100,000 people. Already, I am up to over 50 people who would say that Santa is indeed the embodiment of the spirit of giving. I wouldn’t be surprised if more than half of the people in a random poll of 100,000 people would say they agreed with this. In fact, I would be surprised if it didn’t amount to more than half of the respondents in such a poll. Do you really think people would not? Again, sad. To repeat the beloved phrase so oft quoted this time of year, “Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.”
I get it now. You don’t believe because you don’t know who or what Santa is! Please quit calling me a liar for saying I believe in Santa, and for encouraging my children to say the same, because frankly, it is mean! And hurtful!
Orwell – I have four daughters under the age of 10 and I wholeheartedly endorse your lie. Sleep well, my friend.
As I said before, I believe in Santa and so do my teenage kids. We think of him as the spirit of giving as well and I’m dead certain that is the way the majority of americans think of him. Other americans who have taught their kids about Santa include most of our modern-day prophets, including the current one.
People with manners are usually careful to avoid labeling others’ cherished traditions as “lies.”
But since I also believe Heather is a mirthless snob with no imagination and no sense of tradition or celebration, I’m not surprised about her lack of manners. I just hope someone comes along and teaches her children better.
This famous editorial expresses well what I believe, and what I think most Americans believe about Santa:
Heather, you must be well-intentioned and obviously you think of your position as “honesty”, but I really hope you will reconsider training your children to repeat your (incorrect and grinchy) belief that Santa is a “lie”. To me and to many others, Santa is a beautiful tradition that is all about the “true meaning of Christmas”. Sundee is right, he is a type and a symbol and including him does not have to equate to materialism. You can have your traditions and please respect those of others.
I just hope someone comes along and teaches her children better.
Dispensing unsolicited advice to strangers on the internet about how they should raise their children? May your efforts be crowned with success!
I’m a bit late, but I vote that I like having Santa at ward Christmas parties. I’d be okay if he weren’t too, but I lean in favor.
Way back up in the comments, Heather (#52):
riteous? It’s righteous. clause? a clause is a pair or group of words that consists of a subject and a predicate
Please don’t try to score points in an argument by correcting other people’s spelling. These are comments on a blog, not articles submitted for publication.
After sleeping on this, I’ve decided I know several wonderful, brilliant people who remind me a lot of Heather. They are scientists, engineers, mathmaticians and amazing eggheads. The world is a better place for having them in it. They see the world in black and white, have trouble with social nuances and prefer to deal with absolutes. The Santa question stumps them too. They just don’t “get” the appeal.
We all approach life with degrees of academic intelligence and emotional intelligence. Being stuck far on either end of those scales can create all kinds of life struggles.
Please don’t try to score points in an argument by correcting other people’s spelling.
Yeah, play ball the MoMt way and stick to scoring points by correcting formal fallacies in other people’s reasoning.
For the record, “devil” and “evil” are, despite phonetic coincidences, totally unrelated. “Devil” comes into English from Old Germanic diabaulus, borrowed, naturally, from Greek diabolos. “Evil” is from Old Germanic *ubiloz, probably meaning “in excess.” And “vile” is from Latin vilem,” meaning common or cheap.
Interestingly, *ubiloz is probably also the root word for the words “up” and “over.” Shall we ban prepositions, by this same Santa/Satan logic?
You may have something here. And I am being completely honest. I do have a PhD in a non-engineering science related field from a large East Coast University. I currently live in NYC and my experiences and surroundings have definitely shaped my view. My faith has become stronger (which I am thankful for everyday) and my desire to not teach my children the way I do is a result. I am not saying it is better, just the way I decide to do it. While I disagree with you stereotype regarding social nuances (I am not the normal egghead…I was a high school jock and still participate much in athletics), there is something to that.
Ziff, You’re right…It is kinda lame to correct spelling. Just look I have many mistakes…Sorry
Regarding Santa being the Spirit of Giving. I still firmly believe that if you ask most people “Who is Santa?” most will not reply “Santa is the Spirit of Giving”. However, Sundee may be right that some people will agree with the statement “Is Santa the Spirit of Giving?”. However, that is an unfair way of framing the question for the desired response.
To all, I check the website htpp://www.viralfootage.com every once and a while for funny videos and stuff and just by coincidence one they posted this morning is about Santa. I’m just posting because it I find it kinda funny more than anything. Enjoy:
Melyngoch, thanks for the lesson. I didn’t know that. Interesting.
However, 93 comments have been shared on this board and many arguments waged for and against Santa. And your conclusion is that I think we should ban Santa because in English there is visual similarity between the words Santa and Satan. Really? There has been much more said about the issue. So, if we want to use the Santa/Satan logic to ban prepositions then we need many more arguments (like we have against Santa). But it’s convenient for you to dismiss everything else that has been said and simplify everything down to the one contributing piece of information you have to offer. Nice.
Author Tom Flynn offers ten compelling reasons “Why Thoughtful People Should ‘Just Say No’ to Santa Claus.”
Reason #1: ”To teach and perpetrate the Santa Claus myth, parents must lie to their children.”
Reason #2: ”The Santa Claus myth exploits characteristic weakness in young children’s thinking, perhaps obstructing their passage to later stages of cognitive development”.
Reason #3: ”To buoy belief, adults stage elaborate deceptions, laying traps for the child’s developing intellect”
Reason #4: ”The myth encourages lazy parenting and promotes unhealthy fear.”
Reason #5: ”The number of characteristics that Santa Claus shares with God and Jesus verges on the blasphemous.”
Reason #6: ”The Santa myth harms children’s cognitive and emotional development and damages family dynamics.”
Reason #7: ”The Santa myth stunts moral development because it encourages children to judge themselves globally, as good or bad persons, rather than to judge positive or negative behavior.”
Reason #8: “The myth promotes selfish and acquisitive attitudes among children.”
Reason #9: “Children may not enjoy the Santa Claus drama as much as parental nostalgia suggests.”
Reason #10: ”Contemporary authorities who defend the Santa myth on psychotherapeutic grounds fail to make a convincing case.”
Flynn offers five specific suggestions to help parents “steer clear” of encouraging negative Santa myths that are damaging to the emotional, psychological and intellectual well-being of their children:
–”Tell your kids that the Santa Claus myth is not true.
–Make clear to children that it is parents and relatives, not supernatural visitors, who put those presents under the Christmas tree.
–Do not call Santa Claus a metaphor, an allegory, or ‘the spirit of giving.’ Just say that Santa Claus is a false belief that other people sometimes teach their children. Present it as you might a peculiar religious doctrine: If other children believe in Santa, that is their right, and their sincerity in so believing it oughtn’t to be impugned. But none of that requires entertaining for a moment the idea that belief in Santa Claus is either true or beneficial.
–Tell children why Santa Claus has no place in your household.Instill elementary principles of critical thinking: a realistic outlook, a respect for truth, and an appreciation for cause and effect.
–Encourage (or at least permit) children to share their Santa skepticism with friends, at school, and during recreational activities. This is vital even if it leads to confrontations with neighbors, relatives, or teachers who accuse your kids of ‘ruining other children’s Christmas.’ Should this occur, defend your children’s open iconoclasm. Challenge critics who stoop to such negative stereotypes as ‘Scrooge’ and ‘Grinch.’ Most important, be sure children know that—and how—you supported them in their stance.” (Flynn, p. 147, original emphasis)
I had never heard of Flynn, so I looked him up and interestingly, you are basing this important parenting decision on the advice of a self proclaimed reformed catholic who has been “godless since 1980″. Wow. Good thinking!
Heather– regarding Flynn: Secular humanism? Really? I would think that any LDS person, whether intellectual or not, would avoid such “notheist” propaganda.
I’m not basing anything off of him. I just googled some stuff this morning and learned about him myself this morning and find that I agree with many of his points. But NON of my previous comments are based on his ideas.
Of course not, but it is interesting that you coincidentally TOTALLY agree with a secular humanist “nontheist” on this issue. I would think that if I were you, I would spend some time seriously re-thinking my stance if I found that to be the case.
And female jock = socially adept? Really? Maybe with the other female jocks. Maybe.
Okay, that was pretty snarky of me. I don’t know how to remove it. Sorry.
Just because he is “godless” doesn’t mean a a faithful latter-day saint can’t agree with him on lies and myths.
While I don’t expect you to agree with everything he says, can you at least admit you are in agreement with some of his points? Such as….
Instill elementary principles of critical thinking: a realistic outlook, a respect for truth, and an appreciation for cause and effect…
I agree that “Just say that Santa Claus is a false belief that other people sometimes teach their children.”
I agree: “Make clear to children that it is parents and relatives, not supernatural visitors, who put those presents under the Christmas tree.”
I agree: “Tell your kids that the Santa Claus myth is not true.”
So far so good…nothing counter church teachings yet….
Now look at comment #95. Sundee, is there anything against church doctrine there. Absolutely not. So, even if he is “godless”, there are things we can learn from him.
To quote Joseph Smith: One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.
and: No one can ever enter the celestial kingdom unless he is strictly honest.
So I do not apologize for find truth and wisdom from a self-declared godless man
Yeah, jock in the sense that I was on the women’s soccer team, volleyball team, and ran track and field in high school in California. Got a scholarship to undergrad for soccer until I quit due to an injury. Then focused more on my studies. Double majored in Math and Chemistry and minored in Economics. Got a Fellowship to graduate…that’s when I moved to the East Coast.
So I proudly say I was a jock turned intellectual.
I do not believe Santa is a lie, and you will never convince me otherwise. You may feel that you have to be firm with your children about the Santa issue to be perfectly honest with them, but I believe you are wrong. The issue I have, again, is your insensitivity toward other people’s beliefs on the issue. Teaching your kids to stand up for what is right is one thing. Encouraging them to call other children’s parents “liars”, which is essentially what you are saying you will do, is another thing altogether, and completely insensitive. But, I had thought that I was debating with a fellow “Mormon” in principle and thinking. Now, I don’t know. I am starting to see the point in “mirthless snob with no imagination and no sense of tradition or celebration” comment.
I have never once said they should call others’ parents liars, but that they should explain what they have been taught and who taught them that (their parents).
I am not mirthless one bit. And until you meet you all I can say is I’m not. And if we meet one day I think you will agree. While explaining myself here and my beliefs, I am quite certain that the image I have created is quite different than the way I really am…. Oh well for that.
As for celebration, I love celebration and tradition. We celebrate Hanukkah and Passover in memory and reverence to my Jewish roots. Our daughter in loving advent and July 4th is my favorite holiday…Christmas is second.
Just last weekend we had a Christmas party with a group of people at our apartment. Quite fun!
And we love playing football on Thanksgiving! My team won this year!
Hopefully you can at least see that I am not mirtless without imagination and no sense of tradition or celebration. I may well be a snob though…but I hope not.
Can you not agree that when your kid says to mine,”Santa is a lie, and how do i know? My Mom told me so,” my kid is going to feel like yours has called his Mom a liar? I understand that you would never teach your child to walk up to another child and say, “Your Mom is a liar.” But, in essence, what you are encouraging your children to do is the same thing? Can we at least agree on that?
I mean, let’s be clear– you have called me a liar here in this forum, more than once.
While I don’t necessarily agree with the first 4 points, I can allow them as valid if that suits your family. What I find unacceptable is number 5. Why is it “Vital” to allow your kids to perform the ideological equivalent of running up to a little kid on the playground and popping his baloon?
Christmas is a time that is supposed to bring out the best in all of us. Giving, Charity, Compassion. Before, I asked you to simply tell your children to remove themselves from the conversation. That would be the compassionate thing to do.
or your child could simply change the subject and later when your children are together they could all share a laugh together at “Look at ron’s Child. What an infant. He still believes in Santa Claus.”
Perfect solution, Ron! Let’s go with that!
I can agree, that if a child tells another child that something their parent has said is a lie than the other child (sorry…I hope this makes sense) may completely take that as “Your mom is a liar.”
I have said you have said lie, yes. But I haven’t called you a liar. Okay, to be clear, I understand that could be very hard for a child..so maybe it is best to say that “Santa Claus is a false belief that other people sometimes teach their children” and encourage (or at least permit) children to share their Santa skepticism with friends, at school, and during recreational activities. They can share their skepticism and not say “Your mom is a liar”.
Ron, I agree that this is a special time of year…a time of giving, and charity, and compassion. Of course there should never be a physical confrontation (or attack). But if the topic arises then I hope my children share what they have been taught. This is “vital” because this allows them, at a very young age, to learn not to step down when faced with opposition, to said for what they know is right. While they will have many opportunities to do this in life, we all know that can me a hot topic and a great opportunity to speak up. And it is an opportunity for them to stand alone with the support of their parents behind them.
I hope no confrontation. I am not teaching them to seek out kids to burst their bubbles, but if it comes up then I hope they stand up and don’t “remove themselves” as has been suggested. We don’t seek these things out, but will defend them when confronted. What a valuable lesson.
Ron, I missed your last sentence at first, but I hope my children not talk about other kids behind their back. That is not a solution I can endorse.
Bottom line: It is not compassionate for your child to tell mine that there is no Santa Claus. It is MEAN. It represents contempt for the beliefs and traditions of others.
Imagine this conversation between Ron and Sundee as they are waiting for primary to start (Heather happens to be sitting on the other side of Ron).
Sundee: Hey Ron, I saw Santa Claus at the Mall and asked him for a Barbie Jeep. What did you ask him for this year?
Ron: Well, I was a little intimidated and I started to ask him for a football, but at the end I remembered to tell him that what I really wanted was a Red Ryder BB Gun.
Heather: Just thought you’d like to know, Santa Claus is not real and you’ll shoot your eye out.
What was the benefit to Heather of saying that?
How about this conversation?
Sundee: Hey Ron, I saw Santa Claus at the Mall and asked him for a Barbie Jeep. What did you ask him for this year?
Ron: Well, I was a little intimidated and I started to ask him for a football, but at the end I remembered to tell him that what I really wanted was a Red Ryder BB Gun. How about you Heather?
Heather: We don’t celebrate Christmas with a Santa Claus, but we instead focus on giving gifts between family members and friends and focus on the birth of Jesus Christ who gave us his Life?
It seemed in your imaginary conversation “Heather” butts in and “bursts their ballon”. However, in the second convo Heather is asked and she responds honestly.
She could even respond “We don’t celebrate Christmas with a Santa Claus. In fact, my parents have taught me he isn’t real….”
Again, Santa not real=MEAN! And I will continue to make the argument that Santa IS as real as the spirit of giving, so saying my parents taught me that Santa isn’t real is MEAN to other children. Because no matter what our friend Flynn says, many children grow up believing in Santa and turn out mentally healthy, stable, compassionate, contributing members of society. And out of those children who grow up believing in Santa, I bet you would be hard-pressed to find many at all (I would bet fewer than 1% in fact) who would, as adults, say that believing in Santa was detrimental to their development in any way. And out of all of those people, I bet more than 99% would say that believing in Santa was in fact one of the true joys of their childhood. So this is why I am so adamantly opposed to your teaching your children to destroy that for anyone. Not your place. Not my place to teach your child about Santa, but not your place for you or your child to un-teach mine. Period. No matter how “honest” or “right” you think it is. Your rights end where mine begin, and you are infringing. Plain and simple.
I could live with scenario 1. Scenario 2 not so much. Scenario 1 does a great job or standing for your beliefs without treading on those of others. Scenario 2 brings on the boot.
Ron #116 I agree wholeheartedly.
Lets go back to 112. In those two scenarios, what do you feel was the benefit to Heather in each one?
Let me tell you how I see them.
When she responds with “We don’t celebrate Christmas with a Santa Claus, but we instead focus on giving gifts between family members and friends and focus on the birth of Jesus Christ who gave us his Life?”
Heather gets a warm fuzzy that she stood up for her beliefs. Ron and Sundee get to feel the spirit that Heather’s comment invited.
If she says “We don’t celebrate Christmas with a Santa Claus. In fact, my parents have taught me he isn’t real….”
Then she still gets the warm fuzzy that she stood up for her beliefs but all Ron and Sundee get is sorrow and disappointment. Nobody feels the Spirit. Nobody is edified. The ONLY person who benefits here is Heather.
Santa not real=TRUE
Some scientific studies done by prominent researchers at elite universities have concluded that the Santa story is detrimental to child development while others also agree it is helpful to a child developing their imagination. Actually a long study was done and a 610 page report was submitted to the National Children’s Sociology Symposium concluding that the Santa story is indeed detrimental to child development. But it there still seems to not be a consensus on the issue. But I’m glad you’re so sure…
And, yes, it seems quite plausible that adults have fond memories of a jolly old man with superpowers, magic reindeer and unlimited resources giving them whatever they want for Christmas if they are “good”….all while getting to eat near infinite amounts of cookies and milk at ever house he stops at. Of course there are fond memories. That fantasy story contains everything one would want: greed, power, flight, sugar and fat, magical creatures,…
So I do not disagree with you there :)
Like I said before, we don’t seek to correct the errors of others, but if confront then my children do have the right to explain what they have been taught. As in the imaginary conversation we had above, I don’t seek to diminish how you raise your children or whether or not you teach them the Santa Story as your parents taught you, we only wish to explain ourselves and let you choose.
Have you read James E Talmage’s Parable of the Two Lamps? One of my favorite ever!!!!
Check it out!
I’ve been reading this back and forth all day and wondering.
Heather, your children ever been told things you didn’t want them to hear or know. How did you react? You probably didn’t like it did you?
Ron and Sundee, Why does it bother you so much that heather only wants to raise strong children that know the truth about Santa and other things? I presume we all want out children to stand up for what they believe is right, or am I wrong? Will your children really be missing out on so much if the learn about Santa at age 6 rather than age 8 or 9…probably not.
A nice parable. It seems to me that I have shared my beliefs about Santa in the daytime. Better I should have waited until evening to prove its superiority to your non-belief.
BTW, in what ways is a belief in Santa during childhood causing harm to a child’s development?
As I said, TG, I am having trouble letting this go. I love Santa and everything he stands for, and, as my husband will attest, when I get it in my head that I am right, I tend not to let up until I feel that my point of view has been understood and acknowledged. I am still waiting for Heather to understand and acknowledge that her stance on this issue is too harsh. I do not want her to teach her children to “lie”, but to agree not to teach them to “burst another child’s bubble” as Ron described.
Sundee, I understand your feeling. I agree with heather on substance but she is a bit harsh.
Sundee. I would be willing to meet somewhere in the middle if you’re so adamant about Santa being real and that you believe he exists as the Spirit of Giving. We both know that is a cop-out. Let’s get serious.
I’m still astounded by everyone’s acceptance of the idea that lying is always evil or wrong.
Sundee, how do you feel about the tooth fairy or the Easter Bunny?
Ed, I’m new to the thread…what do you mean?
I need to just sign off and let it go, but to be honest, I am also enjoying the debate. But my husband and co-workers are now tired of hearing me talk about my latest thoughts and how eloquently I was able to express them in writing here on this thread, so I really need to just let it go. And so I shall, difficult as it may be.
As a final word from me, Heather, I respect your right to believe in Santa or not as your heart and conscience dictate, but my issue with you is that you do not have a right to destroy someone else’s belief in something so positive and uplifting, either yourself or through your children. You can call it standing up for what you believe, but it is just plain mean spirited. Ron was absolutely right when he gave the scenarios and pointed out that in your preferred scenario, noone is edified. That, right there, should be the determinant.
And cop-out? In your mind, yes. In mine, not even close. That is what I believe and how I feel, and that’s all there is too it. My belief does not infringe on your rights or beliefs in any way, nor does it seek to destroy anything you or your children hold dear, thus I am entitled to it, whether you call it a cop-out, infantile, or a lie. Your stance cannot claim the same. You presume to infringe on the rights of me and my children by teaching your children to cavalierly destroy our dearly held beliefs and traditions, but you comfort yourself with the thought that you are only teaching them to adhere strictly to the truth as they see it and stand for truth and righteousness in every circumstance. Dress it up however you want, it is mean, and goes against the spirit of the Gospel. And when I say that, I am being as serious as I know how to be.
I will check the blog again, so that I will be able to read what you say in response, but I promise I have said my final word on the matter.
K – We’ve had a lot of talk about Santa being a lie and how it is wrong for children to be taught lies or to lie. I just don’t buy it. People, including children, lie everyday for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes it is done to hurt or deceive, but it is also done to help, teach, and protect others. Lying can be very destructive, but it has also saved jobs, businesses, relationships, and even lives. I don’t think it is my place to sit in judgement on people I’m not responsible for when they choose to lie.
I am so sorry you are dropping out of the debate. It has been interesting and I hope you have learned something from the debate.
I hope you have a great Christmas…whether it is focused on Christ our Savior or has two central figures such as Christ and Santa, most everyone really enjoys this special time of year and I hope you do.
I also hope one day you will be able to admit, first to yourself, then to your family, then to the world, that Santa is a nice invention of man to give kids something to fantasize over. While this belief may be infantile, I know that you are not, and for that I am both happy and sad.
And as it was before, I hope we find strength in our beliefs…whether it my be in Christ our Lord or in the storied figure of a jolly old man that likes cookies. I know that we shall all be edified and strengthen by the truth…whether we find in early or late in life…since all learn and grow according his ability.
As I teach my children to stand up for the truth, I am glad you have stood up for all those who lie to children. Because at least we, and others, now know where we stand.
There is a huge infield between truth and lying. Religion is loaded with metaphor and symbol. Does baptism literally wash away our sins? Do we literally die and become reborn in the water? Is baptism a lie? Do we literally eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ when we take the sacrament? Is the sacrament a lie? No, it isn’t. It’s a metaphor, it is an attempt to make the invisible visible, like nearly all earthy ordinances.
I don’t think Santa Claus is a lie. It is a symbol. It helps us see the invisible.
Part of the job of parents is to teach the difference, with both respect to the sacrament and to Santa Claus, among many other things. We can do it. Generations have done it. It’s part of growing up, gaining maturity, and figuring out how the adult world works.
Plus, Santa Claus is just so much fun.
I have been involved in the naccle since the early days. Even before DKL made himself into a false character with a fake website. I have to say that I think the above thread is kinda crazy even by naccle standards. I don’t even do the whole Santa thing with my own kids but think there is a place for him at Christmas. Yeah I am lukewarm so sue me
One one side we have a mom who does not have a TV or allow her kids to eat sugar (just wait till the kids are older and start to form their own opinions. Fireworks…. I have seen this movie before) who claims that a belief in Santa is dangerous and downright Satanic and thinks that fellow LDS people that do the Santa thing are worshipping false gods.
On the other side another mom thinks that Santa is a part of her belief system. I have to admit that I had never considered Santa a part of anyones belief system. He is a folk tale. Nobody worships Santa esp not active LDS people.
Its almost too unreal to be real. I blame DKL based on his track record :)
bbell sorry to disctract, but I’ve seen the term naccle thrown around. What does that exactly refer to? Is it this website or all mormon blogs, or something else entirely?
and who is DKL and this story about a false character?
Bbell, you forgot to mention that she feels it is her family’s duty to make sure that anybody who mentions santa to her family is told the truth about him, even if it is a small child who still believes.
Okay. So I am indifferent on the matter. Whatever, it is a harmless tradition the kids enjoy. But have people actually had ward parties with Santa? I grew up in Utah but now live in the diaspora and I have never seen a ward party with Santa.
And is there something to the fact that some people really don’t teach their children to believe in Santa? Should the ward have a Santa if it might offend some people and there is no scriptural basis for Santa?
There is a difference between ordinances the Lord has taught us (some essential like baptism…others life sacrament) vs. a man-made fantasy as a symbol. If the Lord ever teaches us about Santa then my family will add him to our Christmas celebration.
Okay, you don’t see him as a lie but as a symbol. At which point do we stop having symbols in our celebrations that are more central to the holiday than the origin of the holiday itself? Santa’s visit is is often what is on kids’ minds when they dream about Christmas…it is not Christ birth. Assuming it is just a symbol and not a lie, is it okay for the symbol to be more central than Christ himself?
To be fair, did Sundee ever imply that she worshiped Santa or felt he was as central to Christmas as Christ?
twinmom48: I think she probably doesn’t worship Santa, but she surely was not willing to back down regarding her belief that he is real. It does seem unreal to say the least.
So I’ve read through the comments, getting several laughs out loud in the process. I think Heather is:
1. Prudence McPrude
2. DKL in drag
3. Dana Carvey
KLC, I’m glad you’ve gotten a laugh out of my comments!
And I resent the Dana Carvey comparison but love DKL and I’m not sure about Prudence…
“naccle” = short for “bloggernacle” (itself originally short for “bloggernacle choir”)
The term refers to the collective mass of Mormon blogs, perhaps with special reference to Mormon group blogs. (You’ll have to get the DKL story from someone else; I wasn’t there.)
143 – Its a loooooooooooooong story, and it starts here >>>>> http://www.bloggernacle.org/boh-origins/
sorry, I meant 134
Interesting B. Russ, I skimmed thru the letter in your link. Sounds pretty funny if you ask me.
Wow. I find this hilarious!
Here is another link that is helpful:
K, I envy you reading about BoH for the first time.
I am so glad to hear that heather is not real. She was a little too much to believe. Not funny enough to be Dana Carvey, but I wouldn’t put it past DKL or Aaron.
MCQ, Yeah I am pretty techie with computers and the internet and stuff (I think) but new to Mormon blogs.
I’m glad too to hear heather is not real, but now I wonder if Sundee was real. Some of her comments were a little out there too.
Sundee kept saying she couldn’t let it go. Were heather and Sundee just trying to keep the conversation going?
I’m with K. I think they both were fake. They both totally dominated the conversation and tried to draw in others like Ron who has good intentions.
Well I just took a gander at everyone’s IP addresses… very interesting…
Well, Orwell has seen the IP addresses. The truth of the matter is that my name is not heather, but most names do hide identities on the web.
I am a mathematician with undergraduate degrees in Math and science and I am married and all of what I said I do believe.
I believe each parent has the write to choose how to raise their children.
I personally am against raising my children with Santa and do stand by my statements that I want to raise children to speak up. I remember the phrase made famous by a mormon woman (I believe many of us here are familiar…her last name is Ulrich): “A well behaved woman seldom makes history.” I believe that is true for men and women.
My intent was and is to never offend but share what I believe.
I do agree with most of what Flynn listed above even though he is “godless”.
I do feel it inappropriate to have Santa at a Ward Party.
I do think he draws attention away from Christ.
I do want all children (adults) to have fond memories of Christmas.
I do want children to learn giving (and gracious receiving) during the Holidays.
I do think Christ is the best example of that.
I don’t want my children to ruin christmas for others’ kids.
I do want my kids to share (by word and deed) how they were raised (that includes not learning about Santa as well as being compassionate and caring for the feelings of others)
I do want my kids to error on the side of being a little outspoken and hurting some feelings rather than shying away from confrontation.
I do want all to be edified.
I do want the truth always spoken and I try to always speak the truth.
I do not want anyone’s feelings hurt.
I do not want my children speaking behind other children’s backs.
I want adults to be honest about Santa.
I have never heard that Santa is the “Spirit of Giving” before yesterday
I DO WANT ALL TO HAVE A MERRY MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
I do think it a little strange that an adult continues to say she believes in Santa.
I do admit that she probably means there is a special spirit during the holidays that makes people a little nicer, a little more giving…and if she wants to call that Santa fine. But, generally, if someone says they believe in Santa that means they believe in the fable character with rosy red cheeks.
I did learn alot during this exchange and I hope others did as well.
I hope this is alright to share, but one of the things that most touched my heart during this whole thing was looking at the link associated with Ron’s name and how he and his wife adopted a young boy.
Ron, thank you for that. People who adopt have a special place in my heart. And I am glad you make each others lives better. Thank you.
And even though my feelings are different regarding teaching children about Santa, I do want to thank you for making your child happy.
When you replied “SOMEBODY didn’t get her Hippopotamus for Christmas. (I LOVE that song by the way but my wife hates it.)”, I KNEW you were a great father!
Sundee, I hope you continue to make Christmas special for your children. I can tell Christmas means alot to you.
Again, we disagree…but as I said some while ago. “I may not disagree with what you believe (regarding teaching children about Santa) but I will defend your right to believe it.”
Wow – I must admit I never thought this thread would ever get past 150 comments when it started.
Ed, Are you ESO who started it?
No. I go by Ed and I am pretty sure ESO only goes by ESO.
Sorry about that…I saw that right after I pressed submit.
I feel stupid now.
I was totally and completely sincere the entire thread, and I am who I say I am. I have five children, I believe in Santa, and everyone I have asked in the last two days–adults and teens–have said they too believe in Santa and think of him as the spirit of giving. I will say that I did make a comment as twinmom48 because I had said I was done, but I had to defend myself. I do not worship Santa, but I do hold him dear to my heart. I do not teach my children to revere Santa above or even anywhere near Christ, and having asked them, they all believe that the reason for Christmas is Christ. No Santa in the answers there. But Santa does play a big part in the season for us as well as for many, and I think a belief in Santa is a healthy part of childhood in our culture.
I have been at ward parties with Santa, and without Santa, and I prefer with. But if he offends some, then fine. I will still enjoy the party. But whatever you do, do not provoke this protective Mom by suggesting that you would teach your kids to out Santa. It is mean. And that is absolutely how I feel.
And Ron, I thank you for your support. I am a real person, and funny enough, my name is what you see on the screen. I have my parents to thank for that. I could feel your well meant support, and I want to set the record straight that my views were as well meant and heartfelt.
Sundee…Like I said before, if you believe in him as the Spirit of Giving fine, but I had never heard that before yesterday. But most of the time when people say they believe in Santa they mean the Jolly Old Man with a beard…if that is the case then…. I’ll leave it at that.
I too like the nice change in people during the holidays. It’s a special time of year.
I too believe you don’t worship Santa and that you worship Christ. No doubt about that. For the record, I NEVER thought that! But I still feel Santa detracts from the focus on Christ’s birth. But I admit one can find proper balance between the two.
You say Santa is a healthy part of childhood. I am willing to admit that Santa can be a healthy part a healthy childhood.
I truly have never been to a ward party with Santa. And I am glad for that. Of course I wouldn’t die if he were there, but I would definitely prefer he not be there. But, I know I am in the minority. So more realistically a compromise of some sort could definitely be worked out. The question was asked if he should be there. I say no. But I know I don’t always get what I want (nor should I). In fact, that would be a VERY BAD idea!
Like I’ve said previous, I don’t seek to “out” Santa. I want my children to have compassion, but an important principle I hope to instill in them is to be outspoken. Who knows…If that’s what I want then you’re probably safe right? Children never do what their parent wants :)
Have a screen name heather is no different than having something like Living in Zion or Proud Daughter of Eve. That may not be my name, but I have expressed my true feelings.
Ron, I thank you again for being a great father. Sundee, thanks for being a great mother. Though we may disagree we can unite as parents…always trying to do our best!
When I said I felt stupid, that was an understatement. I am embarrassed to say that this has hurt me– deeply. I only tell you so that you think twice before playing the same game with someone else’s sensitivities. So make fun if you want, but I am truly, deeply hurt. And foolish, as it turns out.
I do hope your season continues to be merry.
This was never a game to me and I am truly, deeply sorry you feel hurt and embarrassed.
And at no point was I making fun of you or your family. I truly mean it when I say that I LOVE your passion for Christmas and I hope you have a very Merry one!
So why not be forthcoming about who you are? Why misrepresent yourself?
I have chosen a screen name. But I have been sincere with my beliefs. That is so very truthful. I guess I am just hesitant about giving too much info. I already have said I live in NYC. I was (am?) a jock, married, love math,….
I have also been sincere regarding my beliefs.
But not a woman, not with young children, and you use a different screen name usually, no?
heather is a dude?
heather=danithew, am I right?
BTW, the editorial I linked to back in comment 85 was written in 1897. It advocates a belief in Santa (by adults) and essentially states that Santa is the spirit of giving:
“Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy.”
In other words, these are not new concepts.
Thanks for nothing danithew. Here’s a tip: If you’re going to pretend to be a chick from NYC, at least make her interesting. She needs to get “shelved” or something. We have standards around here, man, and you’re not meeting them.
Nah, it’s not danithew, or even another permablogger. I didn’t do a very exhaustive search, but, based on the last five IP addresses that “heather” has used, s/he also likes to post as “Tom” and “TG” — and probably “K” as well. Typically I wouldn’t out anyone — I’m pretty sure we’ve all done the same thing at least once. However, in such a long, drawn-out discussion, it’s really not good form to use more than one at the same time.
Well, all I can say is that I wish people would quit using the term “pagan” like some sort of slander, and take everything on the merits instead.
Whew! I feel MUCH better now, knowing there was something not quite right about this whole thread. I was feeling badly about my #89 comment, (Hate to diagnosis anyone with an autism-spectrum disorder over the ‘net, seems kinda rude.)but in light of recent conversation turns, I won’t be repenting on Sunday for that.
I’m so lost right now. I guess that’s what I get for going to bed.
Merry Christmas everybody!
Merry Christmas Ron!
I agree Mark D. I don’t like how pagan is used as a slander.
Orwell–thank you. That makes me feel better.
Also, my apologies to Danithew. I looked at the profiles of the permabloggers and he seemed the most likely candidate. I did not mean to state my theory as fact, which was why I asked if I was right, but that obviously led at least one person to believe I knew for sure, and that is my fault, so I am sorry.
I grew up equating Pagan with Satan but that sure is wrong. I’m glad I learned better. I would have missed out on some great friends.
Finally took the time to read through the thread. Awesome!!
A commenter uses a fake name and sock puppets, creates a fictional PhD., all to defend complete and totally honesty.
Is heather really O Henry?
It’s like those people that protest TSA and privacy rights by stripping to go through security
EW-People do that? I guess I need to read the paper more often.
Yeah. Right before Thanksgiving there was TSA Protest Day. This guy was from Utah:
I also found this other person from LA:
Wow! Talk about attention seeking behavior.
Ed and EW: You might be interested in this too
If comment 173 is true than from about 7 to 9 p.m. on Dec. 9 on this thread, Heather was communicating almost exclusively with his/herself.
I hope is doesn’t deter people from freely expressing themselves in the future
No, it’s generally understood that about half of the commenters on any given thread (and one third of the permas on any given blog) are fictional. I can’t believe people still think DKL is real. That’s much more crazy than believing in Santa.
DKL’s not real! My children will be so disappointed when they find out.
If the devil is real, then so is DKL. There must be opposition in all things.
Okay, since I’m being righteous now, I confess. My real name is David.
Wait….What? annegb is David…or is this a joke?
No one person could possibly be the phenomenon that is David King Landrith. He is written by a large group of writers who, for legal reasons, cannot be identified.
Except by the five women who live in his house and boss him around.
You know, whoever Heather is, there’s no subject a true blooger can’t run right in the ground arguing about. So she must be a true blogger.
wow. I did not know that. am I out of the loop?
I must admit: I LOVE the irony of the commenter most opposed to the practice of parents pretending to be Santa actually pretending to be other commenters. Fantastic.
Wait, what? Who’s Heather?
I think it’s hilarious that this argument went on so long.
Sorry. I saw annegb’s comment and had to make it 200 :)
Okay, I came back to this very late. So, to be clear, is Heather really Prudence without the sense of humor?
Is Anne really David?
I’m confused. I thought this was supposed to be about Santa.
I am not sure that anyone can really be Prudence, but Anne is not David.
I guess I should probably confess that I have multiple identities as well. I’m Dan (the crazy liberal), James, Mfranti, (as well as about half the permas at FMH), BBell, Annegb, the narrator, Kuri and i’m also every single person that posts at the Mormon Astronaut. Shocking, I know…
but holy cow! 203 posts on this!
[...] Sundee, commenting on ESO’s post “Christmas Partying with the Saints” at Mormon Mentality: A boy had reached the age at which his mom determined he was old enough to understand about the Easter Bunny. She carefully explained that she and Dad were actually the ones who brought the baskets and hid the eggs for him to find on Easter. Then, realizing that his friends might still believe and not wanting her son to ruin the fun for them, she said, “Oh, but make sure you don’t tell your friends. We should keep the secret until their parents decide to tell them.” To which her son replied, “Believe me, Mom. I am NEVER going to go tell my friends that you think you are the Easter Bunny.” [...]
Does anyone remember this from last year? Hilarious…was anything ever resolved?
For all you believers and non-believers out there, young and old, Jew and Gentile, black and white, bond and free…I heard a temple talk given last year from a Temple president quoting Pres. Hinckley that, “Santa is for the children; the adult Christ is for the adults.”
Whether you’re a Santa believer or non-believer, male or female, black or white, Jew or Gentile, bond or free, Dem or Repub, whether you have multiple identities or personalities–Last year I heard a temple president speak at a Christmas devotional and the only thing I remember him saying is: “Santa is for the children; but the adult Christ is for the adults.”
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