1. I agree that your observations are accurate.
2. It’s because we’re lazy. The “Cool” kids are cool because they have better interpersonal skills. Kids with better interpersonal skills are easier to connect with.
3. More than anything, we have to pray for the strength to overcome the natural man’s tendency to favor the kids who are easier to connect to, and we have to pray for discernment to help us know how to best reach out to those kids who aren’t as easy to form those connections to. or we can pray that we will be released and called as a Ward Clerk.

1. Your observations are correct.

2. Is there a clique in the church who gets called to YM/YW presidencies? Yes, and they aren’t the adult nerds.

3. Stop this insane “one size fits all” youth programming, for starters. Stop assuming every kid will play church sports, etc. Programs *MUST* cater to the families, not the other way around.

I’m a bit dismayed because my 11-year-old son has been going to Scouts now for three weeks, and he came home last night and announced that he hates it, because the other boys make fun of him for not understanding sports as well as he does.

bbell, I’ve appreciated your efforts to do things like movies and video games, but what do you do for the kids who are into books and have no interest in sports, guns, video games, etc.? (I’m not singling you out, just wondering, since you’ve talked about this in the past.)

We had a family question our leaders extensively before moving into our ward — they had a Deacon who was into classical music and cooking and they wanted to make sure that he wouldn’t be bullied in our ward, like he had been in their previous ward.

I’ve already had to go to the mattresses with YW leaders about my daughter’s lack of interest in volleyball and her prioritization of homework — she was getting routinely teased because she has good grades and thinks about science; the other girls wanted to focus on music and boys and makeup at YW activities.

Church and activities should be a haven, not a place where leaders compare children against each other and start to drive them away.

I’m a bit dismayed because my 11-year-old son has been going to Scouts now for three weeks, and he came home last night and announced that he hates it, because the other boys make fun of him for not understanding sports as well as he does.

I meant to say, for not understanding sports as well as they do. I’m an unabashed sports fan, but the next time my son understands what constitutes a first down will be the next. (Not because he can’t, but because he chooses not to. He’s the type of kid who wants to bring a book to a Texas Rangers game. Doesn’t matter to me. But it drives some leaders and boys absolutely nuts.)

Q,

Thank you for your comments. My 11 year old went to scouts for the first time last night and came home announcing that he loved scouts. Are Nathan T and Elliot T in your ward? If Elliot is in your ward he is a kid that plays soccer (badly) but really does not like sports that much and would probably make a good friend for your son.

Usually in our ward the kids plan the activities and we get a wide range of stuff. I hear your concern about activities and in the past have usually let the “different kids” plan an activity where they share what they like with the others.

You are right about the cliques that get called to YM/YW. The clique members connect with 95% of the kids but what this post is about is that 5%.

What has always bothered me is how the “cool” kid-friendly adults get called to YW/YM and then proceed to push ideals that aren’t necessarily optimal. You usually see this amongst the YW leaders who dismiss education and subtly push the “just get married and everything will be OK” message (although, we do see less of that). But I have long seen an undercurrent in the YM programs that vacillates between “ah, college isn’t necessary” to “it’s only worthwhile if you study business and want to make a lot of money”.

Youth-planned activities only work if the minority kids feel that they have friends and aren’t simply being “tolerated” (“Hey, let’s the weird kids plan an activity once and then get back to the regularly scheduled program).

I may not be the best input, though. I belonged to a ward with an utterly disfunctional youth program. Well over half of the kids I grew up with were inactive within 4 years of graduating from high school… Both of my older children are on the “fringes” of the popularity cluster in their respective youth programs.

(I do think my son will get over it and enjoy Scouts, ultimately. There are a couple of kids who he just doesn’t get along with, but the problem kids are going to be deacons soon. As for the names you referenced … we don’t go to that ward but our respective wards combine for that age group. He does know E.T. and likes him. My son enjoyed Cub Scouts very much and was highly decorated… It was just disappointing to get the “I hate this” so quickly…)

Nick, According to the Word of Wisdom, Moderation is a virtue.

I read the Card article and the impression that I got was that he feels that his isolation was exceptional.

I would guess that most adolescents having feelings of being on the outside looking in at some point, for some reason. To encourage the idea that there are “cool” kids who’s challenges are less burdensome is emotionally validating but doesn’t necessarily benefit an adolescent’s (or an adult’s for that matter) long term development.

It is a rare 16 year-old that is so comfortable in their own skin that they don’t experience self-doubt and social anxiety, to suggest that there is a “cool” group and that one isn’t part of it is a self-piying and self-defeating behavior, regardless of the degree of truth in the sentiment.

We as parents have as much responsibility to teach our children interpersonal skills as we do to teach them other academic and life skills. Saying that it is an athletic thing, or machismo thing, or whatever is just an excuse.

The idea of flocking to the cool people has to do with our basic genetics.

“Cool” people were in groups, thus had a greater chance of survival than the loners on the outside who were the only ones being eaten. It isn’t a matter of sociability it’s the fact that within a certain regions more traits are favorable due to the likely hood that back in the caveman days, that person had the skills required in order to survive.

This is the same reason why the kid who grew up in Hawaii rarely gains favorability in Alaska.

As for fixing it:

Take those who have undesired traits and call them to the callings of YW/YM. For the most part YW/YM is mostly about retaining. Seeing how there’s still a large percentage of LDS Youth who leave the church after high school, this “calling the cool folks” thing doesn’t work.

queuno, in response to #8, I think some of the YW leaders in my ward are guilty of pushing marriage and motherhood _instead of_ education and it bugs me. I think this may also happen in Seminary to some extent. Not so cool.

Of course I have not read Card’s piece and have no interest in doing so, but I wonder how he would feel about a kid who is homosexual–like I was–and how they would be made to feel ‘welcome’. Those kids are there, and they will eventually either leave or kill themselves. Card demonizes homosexuals for a living–I wonder what he would advise in terms of how to treat a gay kid. I have a feeling this will also be stuck or disappear into moderation. I know how I was treated. Can’t stomach the thought of a kid being treated the way I was in the ‘only True Church.’

Part of it is that what to do to help many of the awkward kids just isn’t clear. We’re like physicians who prefer treating well patients to sick patients because sick patients leave us feeling ineffective and unsuccessful.

“all while he’s been writing all sorts of “sickening epithets” against gays and lesbians”

What epithets? CFR.

“To me, it’s a huge mistake to see OSC’s recent column as some sort of magnanimous example of sainthood.”

I agree. Still, a person can be right about one thing without being right about everything.

I also wonder if OSC’s attitudes about homosexuality have shifted since he wrote those things. I haven’t seen him address the subject in a quite a while. In the intervening years, many Mormon’s views about gays, in and out of the church, have been shifting. Mine certainly have. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that he would take at least a milder tact, if not an altogether different one.

#24:
I also wonder if OSC’s attitudes about homosexuality have shifted since he wrote those things. I haven’t seen him address the subject in a quite a while.

Orson Scott Card “represents” the LDS church on the board of the National Organization for Marriage (their characterization of his role, not mine). That organization actively fights against the civil rights of certain American citizens, simply because they are homosexual. That organization uses numerous demonstrable falsehoods in their media campaigns, in order to demonize certain American citizens, simply because they are homosexual. That organization refuses to obey the law of the land with regard to campaign/lobbying finance disclosures, despite losing several court cases in relation thereto. If Mr. Card’s attitudes had changed, it would be outrageously inconsistent for him to continue as part of the NOM board.

I am not interested in having this thread get taken over by anti-LDS activists. Please take a hike.

If you bother to read OSC’s entire column on gay marriage, not just part of a sentence ripped out of context, it becomes clear that he’s not urging the overthrow of government. He’s predicting it, which is quite a different thing.

bbell, who are you accusing of being “anti-LDS activists?” I’m not seeing any “anti-LDS” comments at all in this discussion. Of course, “anti-Orson Scott Card” comments have been made, but surely you’re not stretching those into a condemnation of his entire faith?

veritasliberat, unlike many of his fans, I’ve read the full column–more than once. In fact, I suspect that despite your condescending attitude, you are the one taking a single part of the column out of context–the part where he begins with “how long before married people…” If you read the whole article, you’ll see that he claims those who are “creating successful marriages” have “no choice” but to overthrow the government “by whatever means is made possible or necessary,” in the event that the courts find marriage equality a Constitutional requirement.

#17: Exactly. I have no problem with believing and teaching that motherhood is the highest calling. I have no problem with anyone “multiplying like rabbits”. I have no problem with women who truly do not want to do anything else but be a wife and mother. I don’t think it’s wrong to have a goal to be a SAHM. What I think is wrong is blowing off the responsibility to get a decent education and preparing to be able to at least contribute to the family financially. I think there are women who justify themselves in this kind of irresponsible behavior by sort of spinning it as “having faith” or having the right priorities. In reality they are trying to avoid doing something that seems difficult and not as fun as meeting a man who will take care of them. And how many of these women end up in a situation where they are trying to complete a degree, like nursing, that could have been done within 2 years of graduating from HS while working for minimal pay and trying to maintain a home and take care of children? Way too many. We don’t need to be teaching our YW to make these same mistakes.

Nick, you must be cool, because you are not banned–although at least one of your comments disappeared, as did all of mine. I guess I am banned, and apparently, not cool.

Are comments disappearing autonomously? :)

Shouldn’t kids get affirmation for whatever skill sets they develop, and not just for “successful personalities”?

And if a kid isn’t being taught “successful personality” skills at home, how is it that kid’s fault? Why should the affirmation that cool kids receive for developing what they’re taught at home anyway be an example for kids who aren’t taught that skill set at home?

Kids that are not made welcome at these activities are going to stop coming. I certainly did. And my parents didn’t mind, because frankly they liked my friends outside the ward better than they liked the kids inside the ward. Did I miss out on seeing examples of some “successful personalities”? Probably. But when kids aren’t receiving affirmation for their own skill sets (many of which are important but don’t include a “successful personality”), I don’t blame them for not continuing to show up to activities.

I was an uncool kid and I found that teachers usually championed me, often to my humiliation because it made my differentness more stark. I don’t recall anhy teachers or YW leaders treating me differently; the YW leaders, I believe, try very hard to love all the kids, regardless of each child’s social status.

On the other hand, some kids have natural ability, people skills and leadership talents. Bill struggles with this in his 11 year old Blazers; some kids will be eligible for a leadership position based on tenure (for want of a better word), but that kid will be a space cadet, where a younger child will be more responsible. We talk about it; sometimes he will put the irresponsible kid in, hoping they’ll rise to the occasion. The truth is they rarely do.

So leaders develop naturally. I don’t think this is something you can be taught, although family seems to influence this. We are all born with different talents and reasons for being here. Based on that, I think I disagree with Card and submit that his opinion is colored by his own experience, just as Nick and Don’s is colored by theirs. Neither is totally right.

And one other thing: Orson Scott Card is, by his own admission (from my memory, I said this once on a blog and he came on and confirmed, can’t remember when or where) onery. There are, in every circumstance in life, those of us who are difficult, who don’t play well with others and think we’re smarter than the rest of the world. Bloggers probably are among this group–I know I am.

So I would bet Card spends a lot of time griping about things that happen in his world–the focus in the awards ceremony being on the sports heroes, for instance. This category of people are the iconoclasts and the complainers. I’m there with ya, Orson.

But the really sad truth, and I’ve had to face this, is that we often create our own problems. By fighting everything and everyone. I find myself being incredibly annoyed with people like me–and avoiding them. I was this way at a very young age.

There are more types of “outsiders” than the bookish type that Card described. Each type requires its own out-reach. I would bet that the youth leaders, and often even the parents, don’t often realize the reasons why their children are outsiders.

Several types have been mentioned above. There are those who just have different interests, those who are not socially skilled, those from dysfunctional families, those with abusive parents, those with psych/emotional problems, those who have been abused (with various forms of abuse.)

A lot of dysfunction and abuse is hidden. If the parents behave normally outside the home, no one will suspect they might be abusive or dysfunctional in the home.

Some kids have their own toxic personality, which might be due to either nature or nuture. There are those who are going to have a negative influence on others, no matter how well others attempt to lift them up; they’re just natural dragger-downers.

I think we’re talking about a whole range of things under the broad heading of “the other.”

Tim @ 41

I am not suggesting that any kids not get affirmation for anything they might do that is good. I am saying that validating the idea that “if the program isn’t custom fit for *me* I should expect it to change” isn’t doing a lot of these kids any service.

Better off helping them to understand that the world is not going to bend to their situation and they can either adapt to their surroundings or accept that they are choosing a path that may result in some isolation.

As for the kids that are not being taught successful social strategies at home, I think that helping them to understand how to develop those strategies would be much more beneficial than focusing on providing them activities that are designed to assuage their feelings of otherness.

We might end up with many fewer older-singles branches where the sisters are spending their Friday nights watching the latest film iteration of some Brontë novel and the brothers are melting down milk cartons into storm-trooper costumes.

#47:
Annegb, I honestly don’t think Mr. Card would consider himself homophobic. In fact, I’m willing to bet he was highly offended that you even raised the possibility. His organization is busy these days painting themselves as the “hated and persecuted victims,” not the “haters and persecutors.”

Thanks, John. Life is so dang hard, I think.

Nick, if it bothers him so much, he could respond to me. It’s common courtesy. Although maybe somebody told him how OCD I am about responding to emails.

Most children who grew up without a real education lack the skills to really interact with others intellectually, if they don’t have the educational skills to behave as adults then they revert back to childhood. It’s like seeing the man or woman at walmart throwing a fit because they can’t get their money back on a returned item because THEY lost their receipt. Bullies should be classified as terrorists in this country, if they can’t learn to behave as children, then our government needs to teach them as adults. Class is something a person understands or does not understand, it isn’t inherit it is instinctive. When we are taught that we have to have our way or else, then we lack class. There are countries and areas throughout the globe where you can tell that people have real class, it’s in how you treat others, not how much you have that another doesn’t. Money doesn’t buy class. In the persecution of another most feel like they are classy, because they have some sort of control, in essence it means they feel better about being nasty, if you allow bullying to get out of control you get terrorists like Hitler. Most aren’t adept enough to understand that hatred of another is merely a lack of something in themselves.