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I think attacking something without understanding it is always problematic, regardless of whether one is an atheist, a creationist, or any other form of ist. Of course, the ignorant often dispute the fact that they are ignorant. I do believe that some people are more hardwired for faith than others. Perhaps, for this reason, we should have more patience and understanding for those within our church who struggle with their faith. |
Tiny note, but Marx did not talk about religion as a way to anesthetize the masses. He talked about religion as the last coping method available to people who were unable to fill their material, emotional, and psychological needs in society because the resources of that society were not justly distributed to them. In his time, opium was a painkiller – so it would be like saying that religion is the “lortab of the masses”. When everything sucks, people need religion to be able to survive. If society became just, and started to fulfill people’s needs more evenly, the need for or purpose of religion would evolve. Sorry, moving on….. |
My life would be a lot easier if I didn’t believe in God. Because He know I believe so when I fall on the job, things go to hell. But if I really didn’t believe, I wouldn’t have to do a lot of things and that makes me long for some rest and peace and quiet. |
When ever I read these pro-atheism screeds I get the impression that because the humanist spectrum of thought is so narrow their arguments attempt to impose the same degree of narrowness on religious thought. And it fails.
And unicorn farts smell like lilacs. Define just. Define people’s needs. Not only does one’s sense of justice or need differ from individual to individual, but an individual’s sense of the two changes over a lifetime. There is not a social construct capable of making everyone happy, all of the time. Nor is it particularly healthy to expect such. |
After all the bloodshed done by communists during the last century it’s a bit unnerving to see someone defend Marx. |
After all the bloodshed committed by christians during the last two millenia, it’s a bit unnerving to see someone defend christianity. I don’t actually have such an extreme opinion, however. I’m just pointing out that Alpha Echo’s comment can be turned rather easily back toward religionists. |
After all the bloodshed done by human beings, during the last century it’s a bit unnerving to see someone defending human beings….or animals….certain fish and birds…. |
NICE, Annegb! :-) |
Parroting anti-Christian tropes, is that the best you can do Nick? If humanism/atheism had sufficient merit to stand alone, it wouldn’t need an anti-religious aspect at all, but it does because it is fundamentally a reactionary movement. Marxism, as the primary large experiment of humanistic political expression, is useful as an example in that it has failed completely (I mean apart from the Ward-Churchill-type Marxists who have found succor outside of Marxist systems). The same cannot be said of democratic movements with Judeo-Christian roots. |
Though I am a Marxist, I did not actually defend him in the above post, just clarified his oft-misunderstood statements on religion. And I was presenting his statements (paraphrased), not my own views. Just to clarify. |
Would it be fair to call Marxism the dwale of the masses? |
#10, That is awesome. I have never seen a LDS blogger openly state they are a Marxist. Now that we have the Marxist blogger covered we can now expect our first Nazi blogger. Although I have to admit that there is in practice little difference between marxists and nazis. Death camps? Check I could go on of course. |
Marxists =/= historical communists. What the overlap between the two sets is is arguable. Just sayin. |
bbell @ 12, I know right? Thomas @ 13 As opposed to whom, Mugabe? If you have a positive argument for modern Marxism I am all ears. |
Wow, talk about missing the point of a post. You people are amazing. FWIW, Thomas Parkin, as usual, is correct, and bbell, as usual, has his head up his ass. |
Great stuff Jeff, but if God-blindness does exist, I’m going with nurture over nature…Ironically, hardship and suffering seems to breed belief. The evidence has shown – an atheist, most likely, has limited experience with such things. threadjack continuation: Say it aint so nat kelly! I totally agree with Parkin in regards to the difference between Marx and historic communism. BUT, make no mistake, historical communists were certainly looking to Marx! In short, Marxist theory sounds brilliant on paper, but we have more than a few examples of what it looks like when humans try to implement it. I have a hard time seeing how a feminist could approve of such things…(and yet half of the feminists I know identify with Marx). And I’m no righty. |
If there is Godblindness, I agree that it is probably not mainly a genetic trait, but a cultural one. More probably, it is simply that some have a spritual gift relating to faith, where others do not. I don’t think such a thing is a complete barrier to feeling the spirit, it’s just that one would tend to dismiss such feelings as nonsense. And we all know that when you do that enough times, you stop getting those feelings. |
I wonder about the nature-nurture. My friends are certainly teaching their son God isn’t real. I wonder how he’ll turn out on that scale. He’s headed to MIT–maybe the theory will prove correct, but then, how would we know since his parents taught him that? Didn’t Einstein believe in God, though? Confusing. I don’t know why exactly, but I think Hawking’s a putz. Threadjack further continued: I don’t understand Marxism, but many Communists fought the Nazis and gave their lives defending the Jews (I know, many of them WERE Jews); many of the most ardent supporters of the civil rights movement in the 50′s-60′s were Communists–I think some were also killed. Thus, I cannot blanket communists. Or Marxists, in Nat Kelly’s case. That said, can we really decide that all highly intellectuals–or even a majority–are non-believers? I think only a few vocal putzes. |
All I can say to #12 is oh brother. |
#9: Not much on reading comprehension, are you MAC? Why not go back and read my actual comment, rather than reading only the first sentence? |
If anyone can point to the Marxist governments of the last century that they admire most, I would be curious to hear which they are. |
John, There are Marxists who will tell you there have been no Marxist governments. I don’t doubt that a person with sufficient knowledge of Marx could trace his theories as fundamental attributes of historical communist governments. I also know that this would be contested. I don’t know much more than that. Much better would be to rag on Communists, although here, too, things are a question of degree. The Soviet Union, even, is not the same under Breshnev as it was under Stalin. China is a communist country today that doesn’t bear much resemblance to China during the Cultural Revolution. That doesn’t mean I admire any of these governments. Where do you place a deeply socialist country like Sweden, which has nevertheless maintained a high regard for human rights. If you want to trace gross violations back to certain strains of communism, that will be easy to do. Tracing them back to Marx is not that easy a project. |
Nick, I did read the whole thing, you qualified you own argument. That is why I used the word “parrot”, the word choice was deliberate. I just mentioned that I expected you to do better. I guess I was wrong… |
Yeah, people need to lay off nat kelly (I’m looking at you, bbell) — there is nothing wrong with her comments. All of you that are going off on anti-marxist tangents are really missing the point. |
Mansfield, N. Korea is my absolute fave. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSrcLC6Zz54 Orwell, what point are we missing? Look, I’m a big fan of nat kelly, but anyone who volunteers the title, “Marxist, absolutely has to answer for the historical implementation of Marxist theory. |
As an economist (BS and MS USU, MS and Ph.D. UW-Madison) I, of course, have significant logical and practical problems with Marx’s theory/writings. I think his (JMO) major appeal to non-economists, non-political scientists and non-historians is the idea that people at the bottom of the income spectrum “ought” to get a larger percentage of what they produce. From an economic theory perspective Marx makes an incredible number of logical errors (fatal to his theories), but his supporters apparently forgive him for them (or they don’t understand them) because of his conclusion that “workers” *deserve* a better deal than they tend to get. As far as governments which attempted to implemented his ideas – there really haven’t been any. But there have been plenty of power hungry killers willing to use him as a cover for their atrocities. I do like to ask the rabidly anti-Marxists LDS members I meet how they would deal with living under the Untied Order or the Law of Consecration. It is very funny to hear their “redefinitions” of those Gospel principles – they tend to think it must have been equivalent to tithing ion steroids. I honestly have no idea what type of earthly governmental system most closely resembles what will hold sway in the Millennium (I doubt any are very close), but I’m willing to bet (a lot of money) that it is *NOT* unbridled capitalism. For instance one of the first public pronouncements of Brigham Young upon arriving in the Salt lake Valley was that: “No man can ever buy land here for no one has any land to sell. But every man shall have his land measured out to him, which he must farm in order to keep. There shall be no private ownership of the streams that come from the canyons, nor the timber that grows on the hills. These belong to the people; all the people.” |
Thank you John Harvey, for that bit of knowledge and sanity. |
“Marx did not talk about religion as a way to anesthetize the masses. [Marx] talked about religion as the last coping method available to people who were unable to fill their material, emotional, and psychological needs in society because the resources of that society were not justly distributed to them. In his time, opium was a painkiller – so it would be like saying that religion is the ‘lortab of the masses’.” I’m not sure how the second sentence improves upon the term “anesthetize.” That is, the meaning I read into the OP’s use of the term “anesthetize” is fully congruent with the explanation in the second sentence, in that religion was supposed to dull the pain of the capitalist life. |
John Harvey, If Marxism, based on your well credential opinion, is fatally error-ed, why would you challenge anyone who presented themselves as anti-Marxist? They would be in agreement with you, no? Additionally, the lack-of-a-sufficiently-pure application argument is a little bit of a red herring. I don’t think someone like Mugabe (Univ. S. Africa, University of London, Oxford, Knight Grand Cross, Hon. Degrees from UMass, Michigan State, Edinburgh, and many more) set out to be a power hungry killer, but somehow the mechanisms of Marxism seem to always deliver a similar result. Conversely, one doesn’t have to be a proponent of pure capitalism to have a problem with Marxism. But to answer your question about the United Order/Law of Consecration. If so directed I would do it. The individual challenges that I might experience are probably different than the challenges to someone to whom the anti-organizational/anarchy aspects of Marxism-encapsulated-within-the-current-American-non-Marxist-economic system hold some appeal. And the Law of Consecration isn’t anymore analogous to Marxism than it is to tithing-on-steroids, for more reasons than I am going to list right now. I might add that there are not really any structural barriers in the US to communalism/kibbutzing or whatever those proponents of some LDS based social justice movement would propose. I think your United Order question should be directed to them as well. Shouldn’t the proponents of an idea be move responsible to implement it than the detractors? I am sure that there are enough of them that if they pooled their ill-gotten spoils of capitalism that they could buy a nice hunk of Utah desert and get their flowing-like-a-rose on. I’d even be willing to make a nominal donation to their cause. |
“somehow the mechanisms of Marxism seem to always deliver a similar result.” Or perhaps the causation doesn’t flow the way you naively assume it does. “And the Law of Consecration isn’t anymore analogous to Marxism than it is to tithing-on-steroids, for more reasons than I am going to list right now.” No, please, list them. I double-dog dare you. |
MCQ, Excuse my naivety, please enlighten me to the example(s) of shining Marxist success that I have incuriously ignored. I’ll compile a list of dissimilarities if you list your reasons that they are the same. |
MAC, you’re missing the point. You naively assume that any power-mad dictator who claims to be a Marxist is actually implimenting Marxist principles when they are simply using Marxism as a duck blind. They are no more Marxist than you are. So no, there are no shining examples of Marxist goverments to point to, as John Harvey already said. |
BTW, as you probably already know, the similarities between Marxism and the law of consecration are basic and obvious, so much so that paranoid conservatives who are members of the Church have been trying to disassociate the two for years. Such efforts are ultimately futile, however, because the similarities are so glaring, starting with the simple fact that in both systems property is held in common. The dissimilarities are equally basic: The law of consecration is centered on Christ and requires the Spirit of God. Marxism, not so much. |
This idea was specifically contradicted in General Conference as early as 1942, w. Read the whole thing … “The fundamental principle of this system (The United Order) was the private ownership of property. Each man owned his portion, or inheritance, or stewardship, with an absolute title, which he could alienate, or hypothecate, or otherwise treat as his own. The Church did not own all of the property, and the life under the United Order was not a communal life, as the Prophet Joseph, himself said (History of the Church, Volume III, p. 28). The United Order is an individualistic system, not a communal system.” |
I get that there are legitimate arguments against calling the worst power-mad dictators ideological Marxists. But if you consider the ideological heritage of the following incomplete list: Stalin (sent to Siberia 7 times for ideological reasons before coming into power) Pol Pot (active communist for 24 years before coming into power) Fidel Castro (whose own sister stated “My brothers Fidel and Raul have made it an enormous prison surrounded by water. The people are nailed to a cross of torment imposed by international Communism.”) Jim Jones had first started building Jonestown in 1974 as a means to create both a “socialist paradise” and … stating, “I believe we’re the purest communists there are. To attempt to compartmentalize their late actions from their ideologies is a pointless exercise, particularly in the absence of any examples of successful application of ideological pure Marxism. It isn’t like it there haven’t been many multiple iterations. Considering the historical application of Marxist ideology it isn’t unreasonable to automatically question anyone who introduces themselves as a Marxist. I am not aware of communal systems that, aren’t led by megalomaniacs and are paragons of success either. The Doukhobors, Liberation Theologists in Latin America, th |
MCQ, The response to your question is in moderation … |
I’m thinking that Communism is the Law of Consecration administered by people who want power. By people who are God blind. So, if somebody believes strongly in God and want to serve Him—-say, a whole bunch of somebodies, they could live Communism with a spiritual spin. Didn’t work very well here, though. So that doesn’t totally bear out, either. |
re, comments 16-19: I didn’t mean to imply that I believed Godblindness was necessarily genetic, though perhaps some temperaments (which are heritable) may give one a predisposition to belief. But even to say something is heritable does not mean there is a gene, per se, for a temperament. Same for if a certain brain structure is prone to religious belief, that does not mean it’s genetic, as we now know that people can dramatically re-wire their brain structure. I think genes probably have little to do with it; for instance, Richard Dawkins’ daughter is in divinity school, and the famous atheist T.H. Huxley’s son Aldous was a (quite unconventional) believer and nonmaterialist. Regarding Marx, while I agree there is a distinction between historical communists and marxists(a la Hitchens I am going to refuse to capitalize in order to show my full contempt), both are morally repellent and empirically discredited even on their own terms. That people continue to defend Marx and some of the governments he inspired is amazing to me, and it’s a breathtaking moral failure of the academy and other areas that such people are not shunned in polite society. While there are differences between Nazism and Communism, they ought both to be beyond the pale. That one of them is not ought to be a scandal, and it is to me. MCQ, there is another absolutely key distinction between marxism/communism and the United Order. The former rests on compulsion while the latter is voluntary. Nearly all of Marx and Communism’s historical sins can be attributed to their failure to respect the freedom of conscience and belief in the thought and action of the individuals. Even moral and political free agency (not just economic liberty) had to burn in sacrifice to the “greater good” of the proletariat (as conceived by the elite however, as the proletariat certainly couldn’t be trusted long term to know what was best for them). Just as Brigham Young said that other religions would exist in the millennium, I believe other economic systems than the United Order (though the UO is much more than, or even primarily, an *economic* system) will exist there too. |
MAC, get real. That is precisely what I meant by paranoid people trying to disassociate the law of consecration from communism. Also, note that the portion of the History of the Church you quote from also denies that the saints believed in polygamy! Obviously, that is not a factually accurate representation of the Church’s beliefs and practices. It is deceptive because the Church was trying to deny practices that were unpopular, as is much of the literature concerning the law of consecration. Here is the important part, however: “The basic principle of all the revelations on the United Order is that everything we have belongs to the Lord; therefore, the Lord may call upon us for any and all of the property which we have, because it belongs to Him. This, I repeat, is the basic principle” |
the one who cant see may even be cured at some point in life, but the one who dont want to see can never be cured and this is whats going on. |
According to my personal opinion, we should not waste times of such atheist who are unable to believe in God, and if God want, He will make them fall for it… |
I must admit I have come to enjoy the MCQ/MAC debates that occur on this blog. |
Thanx Ed. But I can’t help but think that there a few people that read what you wrote, sucked air through their teeth and thought “oh please Ed, don’t encourage either one of them.” |
You guys should get those thumbs up thumbs down things on here… I would have put a thumbs up on #12. |
Nearly all of Marx and Communism’s historical sins can be attributed to their failure to respect the freedom of conscience and belief in the thought and action of the individuals. If you were to replace “Marx and Communism” with the list of names in MAC’s #35, I would agree with you. |