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DKL, I hate how you are always beating around the bush instead of letting us all know what you really think and feel. |
And here I was all ready to write a blog post titled “Why I won’t be reading Michael Otterson’s Washington Post piece.” |
Well, DKL, I can only say that if I were caught in the middle of a life threatening debate I’d be really, really glad to have you on my side. That said, what I think this musical needs most is a little time. Time is usually the great sifter in the arts. It will probably only be with a little hindsight that we’ll know whether our souls were truly enlarged by a great work or seduced by an amazing bit of novelty. |
Thanks for this, DKL — the only thing that’s keeping me from saying that I agree 100% is that I have yet to see the musical myself, so I’m not ready to pass judgment. However, I did manage to find a way to quote the New York Times review of the musical in the conclusion of my dissertation (which is on a totally unrelated topic). |
Poor Chester A. Arthur: not fortunate enough to have become “a war President”, and is thus forgotten to history. Quoting Nibley quoting Voltaire: “Happy is the people whose annals is a blank!” And happy is such a President, as well. |
Thank you so much for showing us how not to be self righteous. |
DKL, How on earth do you manage such frank, trenchant assessments of the LDS experience without losing faith? This is not an attack. I envy you. At church each week, I vacillate between simplistic, loyal positivity, and resigned despair. I don’t think I can sustain it much longer. Help? |
So tell us, DKL, who would win in a fight? Otterson or Jesus? |
Ernie, My experience is just a little bit similar to yours. My main conclusion is that the Lord makes the best use He can of the idiots which He has available to work with. My second conclusion was that while you can acknowledge the existence of the bad, the bad does not cancel the good. The good is still good in spite of the existence of bad. The failures of individual LDS priesthood leaders don’t mean Joseph Smith wasn’t a prophet. And maybe brow-beating is the fall-back position in the missionary system. How else can you control a group of high-energy high-spirited 19 year-olds who are there as volunteers? The only discipline available is sending someone home. Short of that, brow-beating is the only option left after gentle persuasion doesn’t work. After all, it’s VOLUNTEER work. Can you really fault an overworked mission president (or MTC president) who quickly escalates from persuasion to brow-beating when he’s got over 100 19 year-olds (or over 1000 in the MTC) to deal with at once? Prior to raise-the-bar, if mission presidents had actually sent home the 15% of missionaries who really deserved being (or needed to be) sent home, that would have discourged another 25% of missionaries, and caused them to voluntarily go home on their own, and discouraged many more from ever applying, thinking they too would be sent home. Or in other words the “polite lie” is actually needed. If we focused on the failures, we’d lose track of all the good that has been done, and is yet needed to be be done. There just aren’t enough perfect men to fill all the leadership positions. And as a follow-on, that a divorced female gave me: “Perfect men? Now there’s an oxymoron.” This church has lasted 181 years with its divine authority still intact. That’s longer than the church that Jesus set up, which essentially lasted only until the last apostle died. And if you want to be generous, you could extend the early Christian church’s authorization one more lifetime, saying that the authorized priesthood holders who were alive at the time of the last apostle’s death maintained their own authority until their own death. However, when the last apostle died, or was taken away, the “keys” were gone, so no new ordinations could be made. Members can’t “make” a new bishop, nor can bishops “make” a new stake president. The miracle is that in spite of the “failures of men” and all the bullshit and “polite lies”, the church/gospel/restoration is still true, and it still survives. The priesthood line of authority, with prophetic and apostolic keys is intact, and new elders, bishops, and stake presidents are created with divine authorization. There have always been problems. One the 1st prophet’s sons murdered his brother (Cain/Abel). Noah screwed up. Lot screwed up. Aaron screwed up (made a golden calf). Moses screwed up (disobeyed God at Meriba). Eli and his sons screwed up. David screwed up. All the apostles abandoned or denied Jesus. The churches that Paul set up had major problems with backsliding. Prior to the resurrection, the Nephites couldn’t even go 15 years without backsliding. The fact that the LDS church has survived at least 6 generations, in spite of all the screw-ups, past and present, is amazing. It is simply miraculous. Now whether we focus on the screw-ups, or focus on the good, is our choice. And no matter what an individual chooses, the overall current goes forward, and the church grows, and erring individuals learn their lessons, or at least “age out” and die off. |
DKL, I think you’re reading more into Otterson’s article than what is there. His fault here is not that he’s a sing-songy Pollyanna, but that he didn’t see the musical, and is therefore not addressing the same issues that you saw the musical address. |
I think this is best viewed through the lens of PR. Otterson’s blog is a public relations exercise and he communicates from a PR point of view. I think it is not very useful to engage with his posts, since PR is basically doing whatever it takes to make your institution look good (righteous, successful, etc.) in a way that makes a good impression on the average non-analyzing reader. In addition, since his job is to convey the message, not to create the message, I would not be surprised if his posts are vetted or even partially or mostly written for him. |
Ditto Bookslinger and Paul2 |
Seconds before I opened up this website, I thought, “I haven’t heard from DKL for a while; he’s one of my favorite commentators in the bloggernacle.” DKL, it seems that you view the full-time missionary program very much like I do. I’m one of those RMs who found “…a miserable experience that left them alone and disconnected from other Mormons because they were too frightened to say that the emperor they saw had no clothes.” Do I think that many wonderful things come out of full-time missionary work? Yes. Tremendous good can happen for people throughout the world and for those who serve. But after my own experience, I really don’t think there was anything more special about what I was doing on my mission than what Brother R. was doing by truly reaching out to so many of his friends and neighbors and helping them come into the Church. And whaddya know, Brother R. was able to do all that without a “sacred missionary calling,” interrogating interviews every six weeks, abstinence from TV and other media, and a strict dress code. Your last block quote of Otterson’s words further proves my point that the current FT missionary program serves itself more than it brings salvation to other people. Notice how much Otterson focuses on how serving a mission benefits the RM and not the people in Africa. “They will keep in their bedrooms the flags of the nations where they served.” Thank you, Otterson, for extolling an unimportant, little piece of Mormon culture. I realize that full-time missionaries are sorely needed in parts of the world where the Church is getting its foothold. However, I sometimes wonder if missionary work would be a lot more meaningful and effective in places like California if it was the local members doing most if not all of the work. But we still need a place to put all the boys who are going through the program, right? |
DKL is mostly right on here, but let’s not get carried away. Otterson doesn’t need anyone to write articles for him. He’s an experienced pro and he writes for other individuals and organizations all the time, not the other way around. That said, the main purpose of his article was to convey the info in the second half: all that stuff about what the Church is actually doing in Africa. The Church doesn’t want to write about that stuff itself, because it sounds braggy, but Otterson can do it, writing as an individual from the ostensible POV of critiquing a musical, and it sounds fine. From that point of view, his article was a perfect job of getting that info out in a non-self-aggrandizing way. So, mission accomplished. Anything else his article said is mostly irrelevant, although I agree that it came across poorly in some respects. Its biggest problem is that most likely the only people who will read it are Mormons, because few non-Mormons have any idea who Otterson is. |
Hi MCQ, I agree that he is a pro. My point is that it should be interpreted in that context and that there are probably internal controls by his employer on what he writes, even if he can and does do the writing himself. That is not sinister or wrong, it is just how PR works in any organization. I am LDS and I think we are nice and trying to do Humanitarian aid to a certain extent. |
I think I would want DKL in my foxhole with me in combat :) |
bbell: Why? Do you enjoy the smell of fear? |
“Perhaps some Mormons admire Otterson for his outspoken response” “The Book of Mormon musical & Michael Otterson’s twisted view of Mormonism” Pot calling the kettle black? While I had a couple of qualms about what he wrote, some of which you state here, your response goes way beyond the “outspoken[ness]” of Otterson’s response and borders on disrespectful. The lack of charity in the article seems on the wrong track. And I actually plan on seeing the BOM Musical if it ever travels to the west coast or is released as a DVD, because I find South Park hilarious. |
I am usually a DKL fan. Like I said up stream DKL would be a good guy to have around on your side in a fight. I think in this blog post though DKL takes things to far and the word uncharitable comes to mind in his critique of Otterson. I can’t see the link between Otterson’s comments and a 19 year old much much less wise DKL being “oppressed” by a MTC president. |
I find the description “the singsongy tone of Mormon moralizing that saturates so many of the pathetic discussions that disapproving Mormons carry on with the world around them” pretty apt, but I didn’t notice it so much in the article. I thought he made some pretty good points regarding what we’ve accomplished; I didn’t think they were tired (dishonest, c’mon, David, he didn’t lie) but I disagree with his condemnation of the play. 1. There’s no such thing as bad publicity. How many people will look into the church based on this? 2. We’re pretty funny, really. I mean, we do good things and I’m immensely proud of our humanitarian accomplishments, but—going back to the description of singsongy tone of Mormon moralizing, that side of “us” is absolutely hilarious. It’s the ways that many of us take ourselves seriously that justifies the humor. “For my part, I wonder about those thousands of remarkable and selfless Mormon missionaries who opted and paid their own expenses to serve the church, only to find that the church had frequently deceived them about its history, only to run into Mission presidents who pushed baseball-baptism schemes devised to artificially inflate reported numbers, only to find a miserable experience that left them alone and disconnected from other Mormons because they were too frightened to say that the emperor they saw had no clothes. And I wonder about the Mormons of all walks of life who discover that the world isn’t as black and white as they were taught, and who find that the Mormonism of their childhood hasn’t equipped them well enough to deal with the grey?” … I know people who have wandered and struggled and gotten lost, and who long to come back to church but don’t know how to approach it on their own terms. They want the comfort that it offers, yet they struggle to understand how to engage the church unless they buy into the simple-world illusion that the church is perfect. This is an illusion that for them has long since been shattered, and Mormonism as they understand it blames them for the gaps that have developed in their beliefs” Bookslinger: Can you really fault an overworked mission president (or MTC president) who quickly escalates from persuasion to brow-beating when he’s got over 100 19 year-olds (or over 1000 in the MTC) to deal with at once? Yes. Yes, I can. The rest of what you said, pretty good. As usual. Gilroy: “Thank you, Otterson, for extolling an unimportant, little piece of Mormon culture.” Well, I just totally disagree with your conclusion. I think that we’d be better to shrug this off and ignore it. Commenting, as Brother Otteson did, adds importance to the jibes; almost makes them more legit. I’m sure as hell not going to pay $200 to go to any play. Maybe $50. DKL: Am I right (about your posts) or what?! |
“Here’s the main reason I loved The Book of Mormon musical: It used both humor and poignance to illustrate (a) that it’s the doctrine and the heritage of our church that matter most, (b) that arbitrary tests of orthodoxy exclude those who need spiritual guidance most, and thereby render our religion powerless in the face of many of humanity’s deepest spiritual needs, and (c) that our doctrine and heritage offer spiritual comfort and guidance that improves the lives of others even when they are trapped in shockingly distressing predicaments.” I’m glad you enjoyed the show, DKL, but I have a hard time believing the deeper meaning and purpose behind the production that you put forth here. I’m sure it is very well done – but I doubt its creators had any higher purpose for it than entertainment and commercial success. |
“I doubt its creators had any higher purpose for it than entertainment and commercial success.” You haven’t heard their interviews? Before the show opened they gave many interviews discussing the meaning and purpose of the show. There are many other than “entertainment and commercial success.” In fact, there are almost no examples of successful artistic endeavor that have only “entertainment and commercial success as their object. If those are your only purposes, you better pack it in because that’s a sure route to creative failure. |
I am not going to make any judgment about your post. I will respect how you feel and what you wrote. Not having seen this parody, I would have no idea on how to comment on it. I do have a friend, a minister of a prominent Mormon-unfriendly Protestant church who commented on the BOM musical by saying “I personally believe that parodies accomplish very little if anything in telling the truth” and I tend to agree with that. They are basically for entertainment. But that said, I think to take the opinion of Otterson and call it twisted or dishonest is remarkably unfair. It sounded far too personal and I doubt that is how you intended the post to be. |
Here’s a review that’s an interesting read: http://www.mormonartistsgroup.com/Mormon_Artists_Group/Elders_on_Broadway.html Money quote: “The Church has absolutely nothing to fear from The Book of Mormon musical. That opinion is the base of why I’m writing this. I think that anything people of our faith write in the mainstream press at this point—those silly articles about how they haven’t seen the show, and won’t see it, and want to justify how the Church is helping the people of Africa—is unhelpful, maybe even damaging in the long run. It is a defense that follows no attack. If we are a major world religion, we could do a lot worse than this. Ever heard of Nunsense, one of the longest-running shows in history? This musical calls for no Church response.” |
I totally disagree about parodies not portraying truth. I think that’s the essence of parody. Not that I know anything about anything high brow in thought, mind you. I think I’d have driven my convertible off the Grand Canyon a long time ago without what I think you mean parody means. |
I found that Ottersons piece and DKL’s post took me back to Berkeley in 1963. I was in a Poli Sci class on Public Opinion and Propaganda and amongst the things we studied were how to write Propaganda and Time Magazine. Otterson’s piece is a brilliant piece of propaganda (Propaganda is not necessarily bad in terms of aims, but often questionable in terms of means). Remember he is writing this for the Washington Post, not the Deseret News. It is a non-Mormon audience on the whole. He is trying to further the image of the Church, its charitable activities and the dedication and effort put in by Missionaries. Apparently, the musical gives a counter image to some, of naive missionaries representing a church that doesn’t do much to help the people they are trying to convert. He is using the vehicle of “would I go see the musical” to get his counter points across. Otterson is simply doing his job. Assume a brilliant segue. I am too tired to even come up with a sub par one. Time Magazine had a nick name of the “verb and adjective mag”. In the 1950′s and 60′s it was a rabidly Republican rag. So GOPers would “stride confidently” into a room and a Dem “mince” his way in. A Republican would “eloquesntly state” and a Democrat “mumble through” a speech. I started to list the loaded words that DKL wrote of Otterson: twisted, singsongy, moralizing, pathetic, debasement, blissfully naive, condescending, fictional, meaningless, miserable and oblivious. Henry Luce, the owner of Time, would love the style. I had to read DKL’s post three times to find I gree with a number of his points. I know my training as a historian always made be queasy about an overuse of loaded words. I wonder if others found the same proplem. |
I think I’d have driven my convertible off the Grand Canyon… The pedant in me can’t resist: you mean Dead Horse Point. |
I’ll admit that as a former Mormon who is hostile to the religion, I couldn’t wait to see the show. The surprisingly positive reviews by many members makes me think it wasn’t blasphemous enough! Somehow shouting “F— God in the a.., m…and c..nt” is hilarious to Mormons, or at least the ones who loved the show. This really surprises–even saddens me. Was I just too uptight as a Mormon? Is that why I ended up leaving the church? |
Great post! I saw the musical too, was perplexed by Otterson’s op-ed, and couldn’t agree with you more. |
It was the list of loaded words that DKL wrote of Otterson that caused me to think that the post was too personal and remarkably unfair. Maybe I should have just read it a few more times. Also, the lyrics that shout “F— God in the a.., m…and c..nt” aren’t hilarious to me either and I wouldn’t find it so in any production. |
“In fact, there are almost no examples of successful artistic endeavor that have only ‘entertainment and commercial success’ as their object. If those are your only purposes, you better pack it in because that’s a sure route to creative failure.” I think we will have to agree to disagree on that, MCQ. The primary purpose of these kinds of movies and shows is to entertain. Their creators may say and even believe they are serving some higher creative purpose – but Bach or da Vinci they are not. Let’s not pretend that the BoM musical with all of its stereotypes, cheap laughs, and crude language qualifies as a work of great artistic depth (the same could said of South Park). That being said, I do agree that the folks behind the musical appear to have no ill-will toward the church. |
Otterson’s extended whine is just another indication that religion generally is back on its heels. Because back in the good ol’ days, the Mormons didn’t pull their punches when it came to the Catholics and Protestants. Now, apparently, it’s safest and bestest to just get along and make nice and, look see, all the swell stuff the Mormons do besides knocking doors to deliver news of the Apostasy? But hey, if you’re not Mormon, this is handy, because now you can remember Otterson’s line and run with it the next time those nice Mormon missionaries drop by. I mean, you probably already belong to a church or organization that does a lot of swell stuff, too, so be sure to list some of it and then hold that up as your reason for being uninterested in hearing the Mormon message. |
Chino, you axe grinding is tiresome and your comment has almost nothing to do with the post. |
Seriously, MCQ? That was honestly the first reaction that popped into my head when I read Otterson’s review … It reminded me of a common Catholic excuse for not letting us in the door in Brazil. |
“Seriously?” in the tone that Steven Tyler used with Ryan Seacrest is my new best word. Chino, why didn’t you just say “what DKL said?” Most people here agreed with him. Nothing to argue with here. Although I didn’t think what Otterson wrote was all that bad. |
Fair enough, annegb, this is me simply nodding in agreement with what DKL said. Moving on, pls let me know when it’s OK to disagree with your last sentence. Or maybe DKL already explained why what Otterson wrote is not “all that bad” and I’m simply being my annoyingly redundant, deliberately obtuse self? |
I think it noteworthy that (according to the review at: http://www.mormonartistsgroup.com/Mormon_Artists_Group/Elders_on_Broadway.html ) that all the cursing is done by non-Mormons in desperate circumstances. That is nothing new. That is exactly what Job’s wife told him to do in the depth of his tribulation, Job 2:9, “curse God and die.” So you could say that part is right out of the Bible. It’s also referenced in Mormon 2:14, and Doctrine and Covenants 45:32. —- On the part about humanitarian service and proselyting: Generally, they are two separate arms of the church, under different chains of command. Yes, missionaries do up to 4 hours of “service work” per week, but the full time proselyting missionaries are not coordinated or affiliated with the full-time humanitarian service missionaries. As far as I know, the full-time proselyting missionaries are generally unware of what the church humanitarian missionaries might be doing unless it’s in their immediate area. Even if they come under the same mission president, the coordination rarely goes lower down the chain than that. Also, the humanitarian efforts of the church towards NON-members didn’t begin until 1985. Prior to that it was mainly to members, and even when it did involve non-members it was in response to specific disaster relief, and still mostly confined to North America. The church just didn’t have the necessary level of organizational presence overseas until the 1980′s. Things like drilling water-wells, giving out wheel-chairs, educational programs, and innoculations didn’t start until around 1985. I remember this because I started my full-time missionary service in 1984, and I wondered why the church wasn’t doing anything besides proselyting. Yes, we had “welfare missionaries” among the full-time sister missionaries, but they were teaching people about food and cooking hygiene, and home-making stuff, not what we consider today to be humanitarian efforts. I also think the separation of proselyting from humanitarian efforts is the CORRECT way. The church does not and should not make religious/spiritual investigation a pre-requisite for receiving aid, nor should the church give the impression that religious/spiritual investigation is expected after the aid is given. |
Chino, for heaven’s sake, I disagree with DKL’s—and your condemnation. Did you read DKL’s post? I just don’t think what he said was all that unreasonable. I also don’t think it’s wrong to poke fun at religion. EVERY religion is hilarious. Especially when believers in the RELIGION take it so seriously. THAT being said, I’m incredibly offended at the sentence in the song, quoted here, about God. That went too far. God bugs me, but that’s a line I do not cross and it pisses me off. Geez. Why has vulgarity become a substitute for humor? It’s a cheap and untalented tactic. It’s not even funny. Well, bad word to them. Fluffy puppy to them. I’m not seeing that play if you send me free tickets. |
Condemnation? Good grief, we all seem to be in agreement on the broader points of this post. Yes, I’ve read DKL’s post, and I’m so far failing to craft a comment that might one-up his righteous denunciation of Otterson’s misguided flacktavism. Apparently, some folks here think I already have (hi there, MCQ). But not as far as I can tell. The whole point is that Otterson employs a certain sleight of hand whereby Mormonism suddenly becomes religion generally, and goodness knows decent people don’t diss religion, because, by golly, look at all the good it does in the world. But Mormonism as I understood it growing up never was “religion generally” and I didn’t volunteer two years in Brazil to see my faith served up as Rodney King on a Triscuit for the Washington Post. |
Your faith? So now you’re the defender of the faith, Chino? My objection to your comment was that you appeared to be taking DKL’s faily legitimate criticism of Otterson’s article and turning it into a general criticism of the Church. I guess you were actually defending your faith from Otterson’s ungodly vandalism. My mistake. |
“Was I just too uptight as a Mormon? Is that why I ended up leaving the church?” I can’t speak for you, but if I were to leave Mormonism, it would be because my garments are too “uptight,” if you know what I mean. I’d like to go back to boxers–not because of any religious concerns, mind you, but just because they fit better. |
You mean they no longer have boxer-style men’s G’s ? Those were my favorite too. |
No worries. The important thing is your willing to admit when you’ve messed up and move on, MCQ. Good for you. |
You ever admit a mistake, Chino? |
Unresolved missionary-program angst + oddly uncharitable misreading of PR piece + self-righteous rhetorical brutality = this post. |
SP – Now, I fully recognize that phrase comes to my mind because it applies to me as well, and it’s a lesson I need to learn. But this post screams it as well. Let it go. You need no justification for what happened in years past. |
Well, huzzah for missing the major point. The post is a criticism of attitudes and habits that were both a part of DKL’s unfortunate mission experiences and Otterson’s piece. “What happened in years past” also happens today in a million different ways, one of which is evident in the PR post that the OP skewers. |
While I have not seen the Book of Mormon Musical, based on what I have read about it, I suspect I would agree with DKL’s characterization of it. Anti-Mormons and the DAMU with a chip on their shoulder looking to have their prejudices smugly validated with this production will be (and have been) disappointed. (DKL I do think your criticism of Otterson’s work is unfairly and overly fierce, but I suppose that’s why we love you.) Some years ago I watched Team America. I was offended and debased by watching that movie, but it was also hilarious and incredibly effective political satire, much superior to the lumpen and humorless “satire” we see so often from Franken, Moore, etc. It seemed to me even before this musical came out, given what Parker and Stone have said about Mormons in the past, and from seeing some of their other work, that this musical would be inspiring and warmhearted, and even (in a perverted way) affectionate about Mormons and the Church, while at the same time being offensive, vulgar, and full of gratuitous and puerile scatological and sacrilegious humor. Thankfully, we live in a fecund culture where a lot of choices abound, where one can find inspiring and warmhearted entertainment without having to also endure the sacrilege and vulgarity, so, like Brother Otterson I’ll be skipping this entertainment. However, it does raise a question I’d be interested in DKL’s and others’ opinion on. If we grant that (a) there are certain things that a Latter-day Saint should not expose him- or herself to (even if we may disagree individually on whether a specific work falls into that category, I am assuming that each of us can at least think of something he or she shouldn’t watch), then (b) under what circumstances may one offer an opinion, either criticize or praise, on a work that one hasn’t seen or read or listened to? For it seems to me that if you are going to insist that one can only criticize something one has seen, then one is either forced to compromise one’s integrity, or to STFU entirely, as it were. That seems a little unreasonable to me. I am aware that the risk of giving a particularly ignorant and prejudiced opinions is much greater with something one hasn’t seen (and DKL’s objection may be that Otterson’s opinion is merely ignorant and that it could have been informed without him having seen it, though that isn’t clear to me), but I think you would have to concede that there are also many ignorant and prejudiced reviews from critics who have seen it too, so seeing the work in question is hardly foolproof. Another way to put my question is, “Is it possible to form an informed and justifiable opinion of a work, for instance a Broadway production, without first having seen it?” I will also note there are plenty of people with favorable opinions of things they have not seen, heard, or read. Should these opinions also be subject to our opprobrium? Because they don’t seem to be condemned as vociferously, if at all, though fairness seems to demand it. Now seems like a great time to append the famous quote from Thomas F. O’Dea, about the Book of Mormon. (Perhaps DKL would like to append “musical” to the end of that last sentence?) Anyway, here it is: “the Book of Mormon has not been universally considered by its critics as one of those books that must be read in order to have an opinion of it.” |
“Is it possible to form an informed and justifiable opinion of a work, for instance a Broadway production, without first having seen it?” In a word, no. You can argue that it’s insulting to a religion to make any broadway musical about its precepts or practices (though that would be stupid) without having seen the musical, or you can argue that its not acceptable to do so while using crude language (which this musical clearly does) but you can’t have an informed opinion about the work itself without viewing it, and to pretend you can is just silly. To answer the larger question: yes, there are probably some things that one shouldn’t subject onesself to. Pornography leaps immediately to mind here. But aside from that obvious example, if one wants to have an opinion on a work of art, one ought to be willing to see it or keep one’s opinions to one’s self, ideally. It’s a matter of credibility, in the end. Why would anyone care or want to listen to an opinion you have about a work of art you havcen’t seen? Aside from maybe saying why you won’t be seeing it (which, to be fair, seemed to be what Otterson was mostly saying) your opinion is of no value. |
I agree with LdG on the comment by SP Bailey. This post is not, in my view, a vengeful attempt by DKL to get back at people he’s still mad at because of his MTC experiences. I think he has already “let it go” a long time ago. This is, in fact, a well-written and well-reasoned post that makes a good point about the Church or it’s members leaping to certain conclusions about this musical. In a general sense, we really should be happy about the fact that a musical like this has been made, whether or not we actually choose to see it. It shows that our faith is reaching a certain maturity and status among the population. It’s a compliment, of sorts, to be made fun of, and it will actually cause some serious inquiry among those who see the musical and those who only hear about it. To me, it seems to be all part of God’s plan, and a direct result of the efforts of the missionary program and the endless PR campaigns that the Church has undertaken over the years. You can’t spend all the time and money that the Church has spent getting known and then complain when people talk about you. And Otterson isn’t, really. He’s just trying to guide the discussion toward things that the Church really wants to be in the public consiousness, without having to brag about them. Otterson could have done this without being so critical and condescending toward the musical or toward those members who choose to see it, and DKL is right to call him on it. |
Jeff, since you asked people to weigh in, I think I will. I believe that if you have experienced the work of a particular artist in the past, you might be more capable of giving an informed opinion without having to sit through everything they come out with in the future, particularly if it tends to be offensive to your sensibilities. Anyone who is familiar with the prior work of the creators of this musical should not be surprised to hear of its contents and therefore be able to give an informed opinion. To put it another way, I don’t need to sit through this musical to express my view that its obscenity and sacrilege greatly diminish its value as a work of art. Granted that’s just my opinion-which is worth what you just paid for it. |
I want to clarify that I do not deem this musical “anti-Mormon” the way some seem to. I choose not to see it because I deem it offensive, but against my morals, not my specific religion, if that makes any sense. Others will (and have) disagreed, but I think an examination of Stone and Parker’s entire body of work (I hesitate, MCQ, to call it “art”, though I do think it is genius, though of a particularly perverted kind) that they do not bear any particular animus towards religion in general, and if anything, they have a particular affection for Mormons. To attempt to answer my own question, I think it is possible to offer a qualified opinion about a particular work one has not seen, even about specifics like plot elements, music, characterizations and performances. This would perforce be quite limited and must be done carefully, but to demand otherwise would invalidate most of the work of historians, for instance. How could one comment on Beethoven without having seen it conducted by the composer, as he intended it to be heard? How could anyone offer an opinion about Abraham Lincoln as a politician without having heard one of his speeches? One can and one does, though one should always recognize the limitations and be very careful about one’s conclusions the further removed one is from the event one is commenting on. I don’t really think it’s a binary thing. Let’s say person A goes to the musical but sleeps through it. Person B reads a great deal of reviews carefully, studies what is known about the work and the reactions to it. Perhaps neither should offer an opinion, but this being an opinionated culture, that seems unrealistic. Some people are more perceptive viewers than others, and a careful critic who has not seen it firsthand might be more insightful than a careless viewer. I note that I am not defending Otterson’s characterization of the musical. I have not seen it, but it does seem to me that he has mischaracterized it in some fairly important ways. The best way to deal with that is to explain exactly why this is the case (which DKL has done in his characteristic way), but I do not subscribe to the idea that one can never do what Otterson has done, which is offer an opinion on something he has not seen. |
I found Otterson’s article to be excellent, and I agree with him completely. It’s amazing to me how many people try to justify evil and call it good, and try to push aside the truly good things so they can enjoy the evil things. I don’t feel like most of the people in this discussion are truly living the gospel. Just an observation. |
Well said DKL – the world is grey and getting more so daily for me… |
cm, Your comment disappoints me. Maybe you should preface all future comments with a warning that you are a judgmental prick who makes rash generalizations about the state of other people’s spirituality from one blog post. Just an observation. |
cm, the title of this blog does not reflect any representation that everything said about the Church will be “good stuff,” whatever that means. You obviously don’t know what a blog is, and have no familiarity with Mormon blogs in particular, so your confusion can perhaps be forgiven, but the assumptions you are making are inaccurate and offensive. You would be wise to familiarize yourself with this blog and the people who write it before making judgments in the future. Jeff: I think your examples are inapplicable to the discussion I thought we were having. Obviously, someone who attends a performance and sleeps through it cannot claim to have “seen” a performance, and their opinion would be no more valid than someone who had not seen it. As for your historical examples, they seem inapplicable as well. One can read Lincoln’s speeches and detailed historical accounts of his actions in office and can, with the POV of some years distance, even make judgments about his effectiveness as a leader that are even more informed than someone who lived during his presidency, who was working with only the information available at that time. That’s a whole different animal than critiquing a performance you have never seen. Likewise, with sheet music and the notes left by historical composers, as well as various recordings and perfomances buy those well acquainted with a particular composer and his music, we can be almost dead certain that we are hearing Beethoven’s work performed as the composer intended. The same is true of a performance of a Shakespeare play or a musical like “Carousel” or “Guys & Dolls” or any other play or work that is intended to be performed. Each performance is not identical, and some are better than others, but it’s perfectly fine to have an opinion about a work you have seen or heard performed, whether it was performed perfectly or not. It’s quite another thing to have an opinion about a work you have never seen and never intend to see. |
Unless it’s my Dad who falls asleep anytime he sits still for more than 74 seconds, I think someone who sleeps through a performance IS offering their opinion. |
Good point Ron! But if they offered additional viewpoints later, those should be limited to: “I fell asleep.” |
MCQ: I quoted your comment #50 on my blog and provided attribution/link. I also linked and quoted Nelson’s post at Mormon Artists Group. My post got a snark, along the lines of cm, too. One of my friends has a good aphorism that I think applies to Parker and Stone’s vulgarity: You can’t blame a skunk for stinkin’. |
If you’re going to complain that a blog post uses loaded language, then you probably aren’t cut out to read blogs in general. There’s an interesting psychological component to many of these responses: Mormons will brook no criticism of their current leaders or of their current institution. It’s a strange and cult-like behavior, but it’s evident everywhere. Last year, when Boyd Packer spoke out in general conference using despicably hateful terms that flew in the face of the current church position, Mormons everywhere quickly stepped up to defend his every word — both as originally understood and then as subsequently corrected. Once the church leadership made the necessary corrections and clarifications, many members then proceeded to retrospectively distort Boyd Packer’s words in order to align them with (a) the changes that were required to make Boyd Packer’s talk acceptable for publication, and (b) important clarifications made by the church in the aftermath of Boyd Packer’s talk. So that they distort Boyd Packer’s talk in order to make it match their preconceived notion that Boyd Packer can do no wrong, so that no correction is required, no clarification is needed, and the corrections and clarifications offered were due to the need to overcome distortions offered by evil and designing men seeking to thwart God’s kingdom in the latter days. This mentality that brooks no criticism of the current church typifies a common habit of Mormon thought that reflects a basically dishonest approach to assessing the truth or falseness of statements about their religion. In my above post, I discuss Richard K. Klein as an example of the tendency of Mormon leaders to view individuals as anonymous abtractions. If I had no experience with the tendency of the church leadership to treat people as abstractions, I’d be told that I don’t know what I’m talking about. But when I cite personal experience, many Mormons dismiss it as bitterness. It’s kind of humorous that people have this notion that my post is somehow payback for Richard K. Klein’s abuse of power as MTC president, but it’s gratifying to see that nobody has laid a finger on my assertion that “like so many who rise to leadership in church’s central institutions, [Klein] didn’t really care who I was, because he viewed my peers and me as anonymous members of a larger group that he thought best to treat as an abstraction.” David Brooks, a columnist at The New York Times does a far superior job of attacking the basis of the Book of Mormon musical than Otterson. I like David Brooks’ column, though I still vehemently disagree with it, for the same basic reasons that Joanna Brooks (no relation) lists in here responding post. |
What Latter-Day guy and Mcq said. |
One last point: You have these impoverished 3rd world villagers who suffer from AIDS and who live in terror of a murderous warlord who mutilates the women of the village. When the villagers express their frustration with their circumstances, they say “FU God” and some people fall all over themselves to say how offensive this is. Let me assure you that God can take the heat, and that He is far more offended by the murderous warlord who mutilates women — as should you be. It’s not just Mormons, but religionists in general who absurdly suppose that God has such an uneasy vanity that He’s horribly offended by blasphemy but generally unperturbed by heinous evil like that portrayed in the warlord. Best I can tell from the commenters here, it’s never actually occurred to any of them that they should be deeply offended by the warlord. |
That’s it, DKL. People who disagree with you are pro-warlord. Well played. |
Surely that’s a non sequitur, SP. Thanks for offering that, though. It provides important insight into the sort of reasoning skills that generally inform your comments. |
DKL, I reserve the right to be offended by both obscenity and murderous warlords. |
DKL, I’m with Ed and S.P. Bailey on this one, but your point did remind me of a friend of mine who said in a Sacrament Meeting talk once, “Right now, every year, 50 million people a year die of hunger, and yet nobody here gives a s__t. And what really pisses me off is that more of you are upset that I just said ‘s__t’ than that 50 million people are dying of hunger!” |