bbell,

It is because people are crazy. See #1.

I made up the term Trigism. Its for the conspiracy theory that Trig Palin is not Sarah Palin’s child. Its disgusting and those that push it should be ashamed of themselves.

I think alot of the mistrust comes from the fact that Obama is a person of color, at the very core, I’d say it has to do with racism.

I’ve seen the term “Trig trutherism” used.

It doesn’t matter that he produced it. Now they’ll say he lived outside the U.S. for too long and that disqualifies him. He cheated to get into college and that disqualifies him. His father wasn’t a citizen and that disqualifies him. His mother secretly renounced her citizenship the day before he was born. The CIA created the document at his request. Etc, etc, etc.

The goalpost will continue to move and scumbags like Donald Trump will use it to appeal to a certain group that will never accept the fact that “those people” are as American as anyone else born here.

He shouldn’t have ever released it, drawing out the kooks and wackos would only have helped him in the next election.

And trigism or whatever you want to call it as the same at birtherism the minute Obama uses it while campaigning. Until then it’s as fringe as bigfoot or aliens in area 51. I wish it was the same just because I think Palin deserves it for being a birther.

Can you prove Palin is a “birther” as you say? An unquestionable quote would be nice. Even if it turns out she did, the fact that it took this long for Sotero to bring this piece of paper out still brings up many questions about why? He brought this on himself.

Jettboy, she’s the Glenn Beck version of a birther. She beats around the bush while praising Trump for what he did.

“HUMPHRIES: Would you make the birth certificate an issue if you ran?

PALIN: Um, I think the public, rightfully, is still making it an issue. I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t know if I would have to bother to make it an issue, because I think enough members of the electorate still want answers.

HUMPHRIES: Do you think it’s a fair question to be looking at?

PALIN: I think it’s a fair question…”

What’s funny is in the same interview she complains about the Trig conspiracy theories while saying she produced HIS birth certificate (tip to all you Trig conspiracy theorists, she never actually did!). Talk about irony.

And why does it not surprise me that you’re blaming the victim?

OK,

Cool it. I am looking at Chris H. and Jettboy. You guys are notorious for flame wars. Chris do not use foul language on my posts. I edited your cuss words out.

Jettboy. I think its totally underhanded to call Obama “Sotero” after his stepfather. Obama was just a little boy at the time getting caught up in circumstances outside of a little boys control. If you have coached sports or worked in YM’s you know lots of little boys who come from hard circumstances like Obama.

Jjohnson. (thanks for being the adult here) I really think that politically Obama should have not released the long form. I think that now he is going to be forced to release all his school records including SAT/ACT scores and LSAT’s.

JM thanks for the good comments.

Does this mean we can completely write off any candidates who made this an issue? Seriously, people write off Romney for believing in Mormonism (I write him off for other things), doesn’t being a former-birther automatically disqualify you as a presidential candidate?

I have never understood why birthers argue that the short form certificate, which is accepted for all other legal purposes (like getting a passport) is inadequate, and that only a long form suffices (if it, indeed, suffices at all).

Or it could be that we live in a day in which the “Gadiantor Robbers” look like chilren pretending at being mean.

It could also have something to do with what President Hinkley said, “Is it conspiracty theory or conspiracy reality?”

And perhaps it has something to do with Ob-man lying…

just sayin’

bbell,

Last week I would have agreed with your OP completely. But today, now that the WH and its proxies/cheerleaders have taken the bait, I am starting to understand that the political utility.

We’ve got everyone from Whoopie Goldburg to PBS screeching about racism and how the birthers and by extension the teapartiers or anyone who speaks out for fiscal sanity are racist(and in extreme cases, anyone who disagrees with WH policies, whatever they may be). Now I don’t doubt that there are some people who are racist, but for the most part people who are genuinely concern about the economic situation aren’t going to appreciate being smeared as racist.

Additionally, what people want to hear from the WH is a cogent economic plan to recover the economy, bring spending/borrowing under control and recover the job market. Something the WH can’t seem to get even close to right.

So in the end you have essentially three groups

The birthers/those that are truly racist who are thrilled to be given their time in the sun and have received great validation from the WH. Will never vote for Obama anyway.

The Obama-ites who are flying into hysterics and smearing the exact people that they need to re-elect their man. Like the birthers were never in play, though voter turn-out is going to be a factor

The moderates/swing voters who don’t really care about the birther issue either way but have real and valid concerns about the current economic direction of the country and want to know what is going to be done. For this group the WH jumping into the fray only confirms their suspicion that Obama wants to talk about anything and everything but the painful spending cuts that must happen for the country to survive the current economic realities.

Additionally, the genius who actually released the birth certificate apparently digitally altered it for clarity, giving the conspiracy types MORE ammunition and effectively did more damage than good.

http://wireupdate.com/video/2011/04/president-obamas-birth-certificate-pdf-has-layers/

For having done something so stupid I think that the Obama team deserves to have to deal with the impact of the birther issue, even if it is total bunk. It is now fair to say they have brought it on themselves.

Or it could be that we live in a day in which the “Gadiantor Robbers” look like chilren pretending at being mean.

It could also have something to do with what President Hinkley said, “Is it conspiracty theory or conspiracy reality?”

And perhaps it has something to do with Ob-man lying…

just sayin’

I’m sorry, what were you ‘just sayin’?

ugh…

Assuming they had cleaned up the orig document, you (they, all of the conspiracy theorists) would be pissy about its clarity.

I f you held the stinking document in your hand, with it’s worn, 40 year old creases and the smell of grandmas trunk embedded in it, you’d still claim it was a fake.

Can’t you just get your knickers in a twist of things going on in your community? You can do more good there anyways.

Turn your anger (=fear) of the boogy president man into helping make your neighborhood/city a better place for your neighbors to live.

It has not been digitally altered, for c;larity or otherwise.

Any document scanned into a PDF image using OCR will look like this. It’s a standard PDF image.

I’m not so sure that it’s belief in truth of the theory as it is in the cause/crusade against the person they deplore, whether Obama or Palin, or whomever . . .

Only stupid people believe stupid things when presented with facts.

There, I said it.

What worries me the most is that a huge percentage of Republicans either believe he was born outside of the U.S., or aren’t sure. (We’re talking 2/3 of all Republicans–a whole lot of people). This isn’t some fringe conspiracy theory (although it should be).

mfranti,

You are missing the point. It doesn’t have to be a fact, it only has to confirm the suspicion that Obama doesn’t think like or approach the situation the way that any one particular person would.

That is what representative government is all about, finding someone who will represent one’s world-view/opinions.

That is why these type of attacks are becoming effective, combined with some really unpopular policies, it is enough for many people who voted for hopey-changey stuff to backup and decide that this guy is just a little too far out in left field to vote for again.

It is almost amazing to me that this birther thing has more legs *now*, 2+ years on, than it did during the original campaign. I think it is because many people, having seen and heard much more of Obama, have realized that he really isn’t who they thought he might have been. He isn’t ideologically flexible, he isn’t superseding partisanship, he isn’t reducing the deficit, he isn’t improving foreign relations. he isn’t closing Gitmo, he isn’t reducing American military commitments overseas, he really isn’t doing anything that most of the country (check the polls) want him to do.

Obviously not a fan of Obama, I for one would like to see the birther argument go away. It just provides cover for those who want to smear his opponents as extreme. I would much prefer he be judged on his massive failure to deliver anything during his time in office that might benefit the country than where he was or wasn’t born.

With so many other important things going on why is this even important enough to blog about. I just received my ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE, where it has my foot prints along with my mothers thumbprint. Prior to that, I’ve used the short form, that obama has.

I’m reminded of a scene during the movie, “the Good Shepard,” In this scene matt damons’ character is trying to elicit information from a informant, the informant who is Italian, says the blacks have their music, the Italians the Pope, who do you people have.?” Matt Damons’ character says,” The United States government, the rest of you are just tourist,” I think this is the same attitude that being displayed by people in government and press thinking the country is more theirs than anyone’s else’

Should I be worried if I can’t provide this kind of proof that I can be ex-expatriated because some government types thinks I’m not a citizen?

What about the fact that it’s based on lies? Isn’t that why it should go away?

MAC, see my #39.

“He isn’t ideologically flexible”
and
“hopey-changey stuff”

uh huh. gotcha.

Also, MAC, If you pulled your head out of ideology for a minute, you might realize that Obama; not so ideological, tries too hard with the Reps, and is doing what little he can (within the rules set for by the giant multinational corporations master board) for the deficit. The other stuff…I’m not going to waste what’s left of my good finger dexterity. I’ve got 12 pages to write.

You are missing the point. It doesn’t have to be a fact, it only has to confirm the suspicion that Obama doesn’t think like or approach the situation the way that any one particular person would.

I think we all know why Obama doesn’t think like the real Americans or approach a situation like real Americans MAC. And I think we know why a certain segment of the population will not accept any explanation he gives, regardless of how much proof there is to back it up. But no, we can’t say anything is racist, because racism is no longer part of an American’s life.

Just because everything can’t be blamed on racism doesn’t mean nothing is a result of racism. And no, I’m not calling you racist. I am however tired of people trying to blame the victim for this. I’m also tired of conservatives rolling their eyes whenever racism is brought up like there is absolutely no problem and how dare you accuse anyone of treating him differently because he’s black.

In your opinion which kooks should the president have to waste his time on Mac? Obviously you believe he should have to answer to birthers. How about the people that think he cheated to get into college? How about the people that think he is a lizard? What about the people that think he smoked crack and had a homosexual affair in the back of a limo? Should he be giving them the time of day?

What about the fact that it’s based on lies? Isn’t that why it should go away?

DEATH PANELS!!!!!

He isn’t ideologically flexible, he isn’t superseding partisanship, he isn’t reducing the deficit, he isn’t improving foreign relations. he isn’t closing Gitmo, he isn’t reducing American military commitments overseas, he really isn’t doing anything that most of the country (check the polls) want him to do.

I think it’s funny that half the stuff you listed wasn’t important to conservatives until the day after Obama was elected. I’m amazed at how many neocons on my Facebook are suddenly anti-war. At least I’m consistent, I don’t agree with the wars under either President.

And you know what? The hope and change stuff is working pretty good for me, maybe because I had realistic expectations, but all I have to do is a imagine McCain in office and I’m thankful for how I voted. A lot of the stuff Obama does pisses me off, but I’m pretty sure the pissed-off part of me would be a lot larger if McCain was the President.

bbell-do you really think the truthers have received as much play in the media as the birthers? It seems like birtherism has a lot more steam and staying power.

bbell, you are mistaken. The Left has policed itself to the extent that enybody who wants to post truther stuff on even such a scary-lefty place as Daily Kos gets himself banned. No kidding. There are also no candidates for national office making hay with truther conspiracies. Yes, there are fringes, but they are recognized as fringes.

In contrast, you have 2/3 of republicans who think Obama is Kenyan, and at least two candidates (Palin and Trump) willing to go with it instead of knock it down. This is just brain dead stupid, and it is funny to watch folks like you and MAC pout because somebody points it out.

Hey MAC, I don’t blame you for using your initials, if I said what you say I wouldn’t want my name associated with it either.

For having done something so stupid I think that the Obama team deserves to have to deal with the impact of the birther issue, even if it is total bunk.

What do you think should happen to you when you say/do something stupid, even if it is total bunk? Because that is about half the time.

Chris H,

Fixing the deficit, energy independence and health care reform are a wholly owned Republican ideas?

Mark Brown @ 58,

You have read enough of my comments to make a statistical inference? Another fan! And to think I was loosing interest in the Bloggenacle!

So please, point out which half of my comments are stupid and which are genius. Because you forgot to actually include any examples.

2/3 of all Republicans believed (as of a week or so ago) that Obama wasn’t born in the U.S., or aren’t sure if he was born in the U.S.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/04/poll-nearly-half-of-republican-voters-think-obama-wasnt-born-in-us.php

I’m sorry, but no other conspiracy claim in recent years has come even close to being that popular. How do the Republicans/conservatives on this thread explain that poll?

Chris H,

Repealing health care and raping mother nature are all Republican ideas.

Of course the Democratic’s opposing view is that we all go back to hunter gatherers? All 300 million Americans should move to San Francisco, wear hemp shoes and start the world’s largest food co-op?

I am having trouble visualizing this energy-less Utopia of which you speak. Would we all huddle naked in the winter for warmth? re-purpose our Hummers into giant planting boxes for our arugula?

Repealing health care and raping mother nature are all Republican ideas.

Touche

Of course the Democratic’s opposing view is that we all go back to hunter gatherers?

exibit A

All 300 million Americans should move to San Francisco, wear hemp shoes and start the world’s largest food co-op?

exhibit B

I am having trouble visualizing this energy-less Utopia of which you speak. Would we all huddle naked in the winter for warmth? re-purpose our Hummers into giant planting boxes for our arugula?

exhibit C

Dude, you are woefully ignorant. (the good kind of ignorant http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ignorant
option 3)

MAC,

go watch a documentary or something.

mfranti,

You are confusing two separate ideas, energy independence and lack-of-energy-conservation.

Developing energy resources within the US is significantly less environmentally damaging because there are so many safeguards that do not exist in the places where most of our energy comes from.

Energy independence is more ethical and makes better economic sense (before we even start discussing people like Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo and their ilk) and more environmentally responsible.

You know what, Chris, you’re a jerk. I’ve had it with you.

“And again, I couldn’t find a serious Presidential candidate that came even close to saying Bush was involved.”

jjohnsen, would the bit from Howard Dean on the Diane Rehm show qualify?

Dean: There is a report which the president is suppressing evidence for which is a thorough investigation of 9/11.

Diane Rehm: Why do you think he’s suppressing that report?

Dean: I don’t know. There are many theories about it. The most interesting theory that I’ve heard so far, which is nothing more than a theory, I can’t—think it can’t be proved, is that he was warned ahead of time by the Saudis. Now, who knows what the real situation is, but the trouble is that by suppressing that kind of information, you lead to those kinds of theories, whether they have any truth to them or not, and then eventually they get repeated as fact. So I think the president is taking a great risk by suppressing the clear, the key information that needs to go to the Kean commission.

MAC, the reason that birthers (note I said birthers, NOT all conservatives or all Obama opponents or anything remotely like that) appear racist is that they are holding Obama to a standard that they have never used for any other (white) politician. Other politicians produce a birth certificate and get on the ballot and that’s the end of it. Obama did that and the controversy just kept getting bigger.

Note that even producing the long form certificate (which is what the birthers were all clamoring for, but what no other politician has ever been required to show) has not stopped it. Now they are saying it’s been digitally altered. This is not a reasonable reaction by normal people. It’s a reaction that is irrational and based on some deep hatred or paranoia. The only reasonable explanation for this hatred and paranoia is racism, because Obama is not liberal enough to generate this type of reaction from conservatives otherwise.

Again, MAC…

I never said that we should stop using fossil fuels.
and I certainly never said we should only get our oil from abroad.

I just asked what happens when we’ve exhausted all of our resources?

And Peak Oil theory is not longer particularly credible? I shouldn’t be surprised you deny it.

MAC, I’m sure you’re an authority on oil and probably everything, and lil ol mfranti doesn’t know much about what she’s runnin’ her mouth on but, how much oil is left in Saudi Arabia? How much are they (claiming) to be pumping a day?

How much oil do we use and how much can we get from shale/tar sands/crude?

Are you familiar with the ancients on Easter Island or the Norse on Greenland?
Other than smart(debatable) phones, how are we much different?

***

It gets old. You conservatives are against war and gitmo and all for reducing spending etc. etc. when the boogeyman is president (anyone that’s not wearing the Scarlet R on the lapel.

But you’re ok with corporate welfare, tax evasion, manipulating derivatives that send our economy into a death spin, and not doing that *might* limit the free market principles you hold so dearly.

Black man becomes president and oh my god, suddenly your eyes are open to all sorts of horrible policy.

It’s all his fault.

Burn Him! Burn Him!

mfranti,

You can believe what you want about us Easter islanding ourselves. I recognize that fossil fuels are a finite resource and shouldn’t be wasted. Particularly petroleum, because as a generic energy source it is being under-utilized, we are risking all petroleum products, pharmaceuticals to name one.

But reasonably, what are you suggesting as a plan? It is easy and satisfying to be the moral naysayer, but it ignores all sorts of unintended consequences and harsh realities.

Your whole second point is simply unfair. If the tea party types weren’t running Republicans out of office at a record rate you might have an argument. But that isn’t the case.

P.S.

I can’t believe you would even bring up tax evasion when Geithner, Obama’s treasury secretary (with responsibility over the IRS) and Rangel-democratic-chairman-of-the committee-that-writes-the-tax-code both failed to pay taxes. How is tax evasion in anyway associated with more with Republicans than Democrats?

Like I said John, I think there’s a pretty big difference between thinking Bush had some kind of warning about 9/11 and Bush being complicit in 9/11 which is what the Truthers I’ve read believe. The 9/11 Commission said Bush’s cabinet knew attacks were coming from Bin Laden, so it’s not a huge leap to wonder how much they knew and when. If that’s not a big enough difference in your opinion then I concede the point.

It gets old. You conservatives are against war and gitmo and all for reducing spending etc. etc. when the boogeyman is president (anyone that’s not wearing the Scarlet R on the lapel.

But you’re ok with corporate welfare, tax evasion, manipulating derivatives that send our economy into a death spin, and not doing that *might* limit the free market principles you hold so dearly.

Black man becomes president and oh my god, suddenly your eyes are open to all sorts of horrible policy.

It’s all his fault.

Burn Him! Burn Him!

Bingo! Never have I seen as many anti-war Republicans as I have after Obama took office.

And really, you’re deleting Chris’s comments and leaving the post by that classless Jettboy? Good game annegb, good game. If anything this thread needs more Chris comments.

MAC, I am glad that you allow for the possibility that at least part of the birther movement might be motivated by racism, but I think you underestimate it drastically. It isn’t just some yokel in Wichita. Fully 46% of the GOP in Mississippi favors a ban on interracial marriage.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/07/shock-poll-46-of-mississippi-republicans-think-interracial-marriage-should-be-illegal/

Given that over half the conservative electorate thinks the president is a Kenyan Muslim, and given the fact the around half the GOP in the southern states thinks interracial marriage is morally wrong, I think the party has a real problem on its hands. It won’t get any better until party leaders grow up and face the facts. The party has spent the better part of two decades indulging its own worst impulses. It is now stuck with the mess.

MAC, I hadn’t looked at wiki for info on peak oil but now that you mention it, are you sure you want me to go there to inform me of how bogus peak oil is?

as far as being a typical lazy librul that doesn’t work…

I don’t ask questions because I don’t know the answer and I’m too lazy to look. I ask questions because I know you don’t want to answer .

btw, are your sources for bogus peak oil the same guys that deny climate change?

mfranti,

Yes, peak oil and climate change are pretty similar, in that their proponents seem to forget their failed/exaggerated predictions the day they don’t occur.

If peak oil was such a concern, shouldn’t environmentalists simply wait it out. If Saudi Arabia is really concealing the size of their recoverable reserves isn’t that a perfect enviro-green scenario? What is the big stink about?

But assuming that the wells/mines don’t run dry tomorrow, at what point should we stop using fossil fuels? Do we turn off the lights today because there are only 100 or 200 or 300 years of coal left? Or should we wait till 50 years left? I mean really, what is your proposal?

mfranti,

See this is the problem with the extreme end of the environmental movement. Like the birthers, nothing would be sufficient to satisfy them. Windmills scare the birds, dams ruin the river cycle, nuclear is well, nuclear, solar panels require rare earth metals under a village in Eastern DRC. They have no exit strategy. You can threaten Easter Islandism all you want, but at least be honest, the Easter Island scenario is an environmentalist’s pipe dream.

So your “you’re too smart for me” false depreciation is just phony, you simply can’t defend your position because it isn’t defensible. You suggest that resource development within the confines of the US is somehow exceptional. Why? You say we are going to run out of resources, but we have resources now so do we wait for them to run out or do we save them for later, when they will still run out?

All you are saying is that this is bad, that it wrong, we can’t do this, we can’t do that. I have asked you several times what should we do then? Only to have you reply that I really don’t want to know or I’m too smart for you.

Maybe the whole burn-baby-burn accusation towards those who don’t bother to conserve is simply because they haven’t been given a viable, realistic alternative. What do you propose?

And I am going to be fair and say that you can expect your proposal to be weighed in terms that are not confined to their absolute environmental impact but also the real impact they would have on the ability to keep the world fed, clothed, and sheltered.

MCQ,

From many perspectives, Obama’s political positions are more extreme than Clinton’s and I don’t think that Clinton was treated any better by the same cohort.

How do you separate disapproval of political position from racism? How do you determine who amongst any of his political opponents are/are not motivated by racism? What is the measure?

There are a dozen persistent conspiracy theories out there, why does this one signify racism?

Nor is the birther movement the first target of the racism accusation. Remember those that opposed health care were racist, the tea partiers were racist … I could go on. Where do we draw the line?

I am far from being convinced that the racism label hasn’t be over-applied to achieve political ends.

“Nor is the birther movement the first target of the racism accusation. Remember those that opposed health care were racist, the tea partiers were racist … I could go on. Where do we draw the line?”

I don’t know why you can’t stick to the conversation you’re in. I’ve emphasized several times that we’re talking about birthers, not anything else. We draw the line when people go from political opposition to irrational hatred and paranoia.

“It’s got no rationality to it. It questions the president’s citizenship and the basic honesty of his family. It’s not the same thing.”

It seems very similar to the John Kerry swiftboat garbage and to the George Bush Air National Guard forgery nonsense.

The time has come to change the law. It’s a ridiculous law.

URLs for the above:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/interviews/myers2.html
http://www.booknotes.org/Watch/67754-1/Marlin+Fitzwater.aspx

So now we’re just making up terms. I’ve got one: Targetism – the belief that Sarah Palin is responsible for the Gabriel Giffords shooting because her website showed a target drawn over Giffords district.

Mark Brown,

You’ve been had. You found some poll that validates your biases and accepted it uncritically.

The original poll was done by the Public Policy Polling group.

They’re website has all their polls available. The poll you are referring too is labeled “Mississippi Republican Poll”. There is not a comparable Democratic Poll.

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/surveys.asp

They’re own “Public Policy in the News” pages mentions 8 instances of their Mississippi Republican poll being cited in different media sources but none mention any citation of Democratic polls.

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/news.asp

I googled the language about the democratic poll from the article you referenced and there are only 6 hits, which appear to be reprints of the same article but have no actual link to any poll.

Sorry, I just can’t find the poll anywhere. Maybe it is in Hawaii? Unfortunately PPP’s website’s search function doesn’t seem to work.

Do I believe that there are anachronistic racists in Mississippi, absolutely. Do I believe that they are skewed towards one political party or another? It would be interesting to know, but I can’t find any poll with comparative information.

I would guess that about the same percentage of older white voters in Mississippi have about the same ideas about racial marriage, regardless of political affiliation.

John, the controversies you name are nothing compared to the birther crap. You obviously don’t want to see or admit that, but whether Clinton got a haircut or not had nothing to do with his eligibility for office, it was just a PR thing.

The impeachment process happened because Clinton was accused of crimes while in office. That’s completely seperate from controversies dredged up from the past. If Obama is accused of committing crimes while in office, I assume impeachment proceedings will be instituted against him as well, but until or unless that happens, we’re not talking about the same thing.

MCQ, it seems to be your view that no American politician in our lifetimes has put up with baseless cheap shots that can compare with what President Obama must endure. Is that your view?

Ta-Nehisi Coates sums it up pretty well. It’s the sum of all parts. Maybe one single thing doesn’t seem racist, but add it all together.

This is not Vince Foster. This is not Swiftboating. This is the dude who passed health care reform as “the biggest Affirmative Action in history.” This is the whitey tape. This you are an “Indonesian welfare thug.” This is the host of “Celebrity Apprentice,” questioning the intellect of the past editor of the Harvard Law Review. This is the scion of inherited money as populist, and the scion of a teen single-mother as elitist. This is, if you were white, you and the black dude who came before wouldn’t be here. This is we don’t believe you.

In other words, this is a racism of the bone.

My ire is not so much for those who see their interests in that frame, but for the Very Serious People, who see nothing in the fact that those who are sorry that this country wasn’t cleaved in half by Genosha, and those who believe the first black president is a Muslim sleeper agent, are all at the same party. Who with a straight face chalk it up to the inexplicable vagaries of the human mind, or mere chance.

That comparison might be better if a majority of Republicans had bought into it.

Are supporters of Clinton that refused to accept that Obama was born in the U.S. despite significant evidence to the contrary racist? Certainly. Or else they’re very very stupid, or they are intentionally spreading what they know is a lie to attack him. Play with the numbers all you want, but the percentage of Democrats who bought into that is quite small.

There are certainly Republicans who don’t support Obama who accept that he was born in the U.S. Nobody’s calling these Republicans, who oppose Obama, racist. But those who huge don’t accept it? That 2/3 of all Republicans who question whether he was born in the U.S. or believe he was born outside of the U.S.? They are either racist, very very stupid, or are intentionally spreading what they know is a lie to attack him.

Again MAC I’ll take it back to Presidential candidates. How many times did Ross Perot, George Bush or Bob Dole say Clinton was a murderer?

There will always be a fringe that has Truthers, Birthers or Triggers.

What Tim and jjohnsen said.

“MCQ, it seems to be your view that no American politician in our lifetimes has put up with baseless cheap shots that can compare with what President Obama must endure. Is that your view?”

Wrong question.

It’s different than the other controversies that have dogged other presidents. It’s not just campaign BS that goes away once the campaign is over (and those who think it’s relevant to compare Clinton supporters to the birthers are dishonest: bringing up the issue during the campaign is not the same as never letting it go in the face of all evidence).

This is not just claiming that someone was less than forthright in their business dealings, or committed some petty offense that makes them look bad, like smoking pot or getting preferential treatment in the draft. This accusation not only insists that the President is being dishonest about his past, but that he isn’t even eligible for the office he occupies, and has engaged in falsification of official documents and his parents were dishonest about his birth when he was only a baby. His entire family is implicated in this. They would all have to be liars from the time he was a baby for the birthers’ story to be true.

Can’t you see the difference between that and accusing someone of shady business deals or being a hippy during the vietnam war? Can’t you see that insisting that the president is foreign-born, including the birthers’ failure to accept any evidence to the contrary, and especially in light of the fact that no other president has ever been required to produce this kind of proof of citizenship, is flat racist?

Let me ask you this: What kind of evidence of racism will you accept? When a black politician is treated differently than any white politician in the history of the country, that’s racism. It’s exactly like the poll laws that were passed in the south requiring heightened proof of citizenship to vote. Those laws were designed to keep black people from voting, and they were racist. This birther crap is designed to keep a black man from being able to serve as president and it’s racist too.

Can’t you see that insisting that the president is foreign-born, including the birthers’ failure to accept any evidence to the contrary, and especially in light of the fact that no other president has ever been required to produce this kind of proof of citizenship, is flat racist?

Again, foreign born =/= of another race. If a candidates parent was Russian and treated differently, then you would have a point. But with nothing to compare it to you can’t accuse someone for racism when their stated issue is nationality.

I don’t think you can prove racism anymore than I can disprove it.

I don’t agree in the utility of the whole racism exercise. It isn’t swaying anyone and it certainly isn’t improving the situation. And I have stated multiple times that I feel the same way about the birther crap. And that’s the truth.

When a black politician is treated differently than any white politician in the history of the country, that’s racism. It’s exactly like the poll laws that were passed in the south requiring heightened proof of citizenship to vote. Those laws were designed to keep black people from voting, and they were racist. This birther crap is designed to keep a black man from being able to serve as president and it’s racist too.

this. THIS.

I blame MCQ for making this thread so long. If he would have said this 100 posts ago I would have just copied and pasted it.

Politicians get thrown at them whatever has a chance of sticking. Unfair as it is, I don’t feel sorry for a single one of them. With George Bush, it was that he was lazy and stupid. With Clinton, he was slimy and lecherous. George HW Bush was an out-of-touch New England blue blood. Obama is also a politician, so he gets his own version of “He looks kind of French to me.” He gets razzed about his foreign father because he has one, not because that father was black. Back in 1988, no one cared about Jesse Jackson’s father or where he was born.

I do feel sorry for anyone who listens to Donald Trump and think anything he says has any deeper meaning than TV ratings.

MCQ,

When I read the response in the article that you posted, and similar responses elsewhere, the more I see the parallels between the birther campaign and the smear campaign against Palin. They have identical levels of unreasonable-ness to them.

John, would you agree that Evans and De Lay were mocking Kerry, but they didn’t actually believe he was French? I am quite certain that is the case. In contrast, the birthers really do believe that the president is a Muslim from Kenya. In my opinion, that is a significant distinction.

MAC, you have agreed that the birther issue is ridiculous and stupid. Yet 50% of conservative voters are birthers and another 15% are willing to be convinced, and a prominent birther is given the microphone during primetime at the national tea party convention. If you discount racism as a motive, the most likely explanation is that 65% of conservative voters are just plain stupid, according to your own definition. Are you comfortable with that? If not, how do you explain it?

Wow you guys went really afield on this eh?

I was speaking to my dad about this post and one thing he said was that he has a well educated friend who is essentially a birther. My dad tries to avoid the topic with him cause you can’t reason with folks that hold on to baseless conspiracy theories. The Birthers have essentially lost their minds. Its like being a loyal Yankee fan (He he)

I think the reason why the Birther idea took hold on so many people is because Obama feels to many Americans to be so foreign in so many ways. I think perceived nationality plays into this far more then race.

I don’t think if he was a conservative black guy from Kentucky this would be happening at all from the Right. White conservatives embrace fellow black conservatives. Black conservatives tend to win republican primaries. I think that a black conservative republican candidate would sweep the entire South. I do think that a conservative black president would get the whole “Uncle Tom” treatment from the left though

As I read the responses I thought back to California in the 1990′s. Pete Wilson was Governor and he vetoed the redistricting bill and was able to get a commision appointed to draw the boundaries. That commision was also directed to make as many races as competitive as possible.

After the redistricting the Republicans and a lot of independent sources felt the GOP had a very good chance to take control of the legislaturee. It didn’t happen. There were a number of reasons, but the one that stood out was that the Republians did not produce quality candidates. The two primary explanations for that was it didn’t pay enough and people were not willing to put them or their families through the abuse of the political process.

A key example of that continuing process is Senator Boxer. I personally have great respect for her and her views generally mirror my own, but I have to recognize that she is too liberal for California. Why did she win? Really bad Republican opponents.

One candidate was a mild mannered Asian guy who had the charisma of 9 day old bread. Another was a rabid reactionary newscaster from LA who was most noted for having his gray hair sprayed with something like liquid cement. Finally there was a failed CEO of Hewlitt Packard who sent jobs overseas.

I want to here somebody say “I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that Barrack Obama was born in the United States.”

http://ldsscience.blogspot.com/2011/04/obamas-birth-and-falsification-gods-we.html

That is all.

“I think the reason why the Birther idea took hold on so many people is because Obama feels to many Americans to be so foreign in so many ways. I think perceived nationality plays into this far more then race.”

Maybe this is why I relate so much to Obama. It is also why I relate to Superman.

See, that’s the problem right there: birthers don’t have iPhones. They communicate with tin cans and string.

Right on cue!

Chris H …Maybe this is why I relate so much to Obama. It is also why I relate to Superman.

mfranti … The comment Chris quotes brings to mind what ignorant, intellectually lazy, reactionary, dips** Americans are.

MCQ … They communicate with tin cans and string.

Wonderful. There you go MCQ. That is exactly why the sort of Obamaesque contempt for the other that is a perfect counter-point to the anti-birthers-as-racists argument.

I have spent half a dozen comments trying to point it out and here you three have self-identified. I guess I should have just asked. Live and learn.

MAC,

Are you intentionally misrepresenting those statements, or do you just have poor reading comprehension? Maybe you’re just running short on sleep. How is the comment from Chris H. showing contempt for the other? He is merely stating how he relates with Obama–he comes from a different (and let’s face it, more interesting) background. And MCQ was talking about BIRTHERS. Are you saying we should have respect for the intelligence of people who buy into wacky conspiracy theories?

But then again, you’re right. I have utter contempt for the birthers. i think they are a bunch of know-nothing, lowbrow, mouth-breathing, trailer-park, hillbillies with bad haircuts and outie belly-buttons. Why would you expect me not to have contempt for them? They’ve easily demonstrated more than ample reason for contempt whenever they open their mouths. You yourself said they were stupid, did you not? You need to own your feelings, MAC.

Mike Wolf at Red State is a conservative who is interested in helping conservatives win elections, and he is very worried about the inroads the birthers are making in the GOP. The summary of this article is “Not sure if anyone won, but our movement is losing thanks to these people.”

http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2009/07/21/mike-castle-encounters-the-birthers/

Mr. Wolf, unlike MAC, actually deserves to be taken seriously. He understands that the GOP must excise this malignancy before it can expect to make any progress.

Russel G @ 136,

I didn’t say thinking differently was equivalent to intolerance. I suggested that extending the label of intolerance to blanket the entire group who thinks differently than you do, when the intolerant thinking is demonstrably in the minority of said group, is intolerant in and of itself.

Tim @ 137,

You are right, MCQ’s comment was specific to birthers. But as a response to mfranti’s “what ignorant, intellectually lazy, reactionary, dips** Americans are” it is not isolated from the tone/intent of the discussion. But if you were smart you would accuse me of doing exactly what I have been accusing them of, like Russel G tried to do but executed poorly. At least on some level you understand the unfairness of it. The next question is whether or not you can apply it to all instances, like say calling all tea partiers/Republicans/non-progressives racists because a few birthers exist.

Your comparing my background to Chris H’s piqued my curiosity a little though. Having been around the bloggernacle enough to know that most (not all, not all) participants are pretty much ethnically/culturally non-diverse. If I read back through this post, and others on the same topic, methods and language used when discussing racism have vaguely abstract and rote quality to them. How does a typical person of non-color, raised and safely ensconced in a Mormon enclave (but of course had a native companion for like four months on their mission and recently added a third non-white friend on Facebook) think about racism and its impact on the American citizenship?

MCQ,

Initially reading the comment, I was mistakenly proud to stand in need of an interpreter to identify the golden nuggets of irony so deftly concealed in your Jello Belt humor. Alas, now that you have pointed it out and with some difficulty painful introspection, I must again concede that I am wrong and acknowledge the subtle yet sharp, simple but elegant hilarity in contrasting an iPhone to a pair of tin cans connected by string. I can only hope that my ignorant, ham-fisted comment does not keep you from sharing more communication method humor. Walkie-talkies, CB radios, notes in a bottle … you have wisely chosen a subject with nearly limitless fecundity. If Juvenal had written a 17th poem, it would have most certainly been anchored in the profound sea of comedy that we refer to as the tin can telephone. Bravo!

And you are welcome to have contempt for any race/religion/proclivity-towards-mouth-breathing/(insert whichever class/group here) that you want. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy in criticizing contempt-for-others in the form of racist labeling in the next breath. Particularly when the racist label is so conveniently being used to exclude any and all thinking that might challenge the performance of your man in the WH.

Mark Brown @ 140,

Fortunately my comment 126 is available for all to read and it simply states that I personally do not know any birthers, and in no way suggests that I think they don’t exist. I have previously noted, in multiple comments for all to see, that they exist. Since your entire comment is predicated on this dishonest misrepresentation, the remainder does not merit a reply.

@ 141

Don’t suppose that because I am critical of the opposing side’s response to the birthers that I in anyway agree with the birtherism as a tactic.

The reason I am not overly concerned about the impact of the birthers on the ability for conservatives to win elections is that I don’t believe they will have a significant impact. After eight years of “compassionate conservatism” and the last 2+ years of epic fiscal mismanagement, if you were to go to Kenya and find a Muslim guy with a realistic plan to fix the economy, he might have a good chance to beat the economically illiterate, rent-seeker’s pipe dream of a spendthrift we have now.

We are entering the time frame where if the economy was going to improve in time to not sink the current administration it would have to had started to improve about yesterday. And almost every indication is that it isn’t going to turn around any time soon. There might be enough unemployed recent law school graduates alone to tip the electoral scale. IMO, with respect to the 2012 election cycle, nothing any kook birther or race baiter can say about the birth certificate kerfuffle is going to matter one whit. With the imminent levels of stress on American household budgets, as a result of the current administration’s actions, George Washington himself couldn’t win an incumbent president election.

China announced today it is reducing the amount of US debt it will hold. The oil wells that are not being drilled in the Gulf and not being serviced in Libya today will not come online in a year to compensate for normal decline in currently producing wells at that time. The dollar is at its lowest point in three years and not leveling out. S&P downgraded the US credit rating from stable to negative today. The stimulus money that floated so many state programs is drying up and there is less money available in state budgets than there was when the stimulus spending orgy kicked in. The price of corn, wheat an cotton have doubled in the last six months, which in turn drive up the price of feeding and clothing a family. Student loan debt has this month surpassed credit card debt at almost 1,000,000,000,000 dollars and the crappy job market means that much of that will not be paid back remaining a non-dischargable albatross on the necks of liberal arts majors for the rest of their lives. And that is just off the top of my head. I am afraid to look for more. It is a perfect storm brewing and it is going to get much worse before it gets better.

MAC,

I think I made a mistake–I think I confused Chris H. with a commenter by the name of “Dan” who has a similar MO (on the bloggernacle at least) to Chris H. but who hails from Romania.

So my apologies on that front. The rest of my comment stands.

Peter LLC,

I rounded up to an even three years. The problem with being too specific is that the dollar can be incrementally higher against one currency over a period while being weaker across the board. Cherry picking the currencies included in the other column will allow one to massage the numbers slightly.

But anyway, here is the reference

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703655404576292682596573082.html

Either way, as an indication of the current threats to American prosperity, the point is valid.

Please refrain from cussing on my threads. I am serious. I think it shows an inability to make an argument when you resort to cussing.

M* indeed.

melanie, you referred to Republicans (Conservatives?) criticizing Gitmo. I’ve noticed those criticisms and also the criticisms regarding Obama and the war in Iraq. Both are unfair. Both came during the Bush administration. I’ve been bemused and slightly appalled at the partisan politics evinced in these criticisms. How quickly parties forget and change sides.

Regarding the charges of racism, I disagree. It’s a small distinction, but I think the two party system has become such an ugly contest that any difference in a person is going to be pounced on—if you don’t believe me, wait and see what happens if and when we have a woman in the White House. It will be labeled as sexism (and I don’t have a real problem with the label, frankly) but it will be more as one more thing to attack and win at.

I’m more and more reminded of “1984″ and wonder how much of the televised reports of birther claims, wars, etc. isn’t just entertaining the masses while the real lawmakers (Illuminadae? pardon the spelling) go on their merry way unchallenged.

I’m all for an amendment to the Constitution changing the “born in the USA” requirement for president. I suspect there are some naturalized citizens who would make excellent leaders.

Oh, also, Melanie, do you really think that corporations or the more advanced countries are keeping third world countries in the third world? How? And why?

For all those that claim that persecution of Obama isn’t racially motivated and use persecution of Clinton as evidence, you’re off your rockers. Obama is being persecuted for his mere existence. Clinton was persecuted for what he did. One of my best friends worked in the Clinton administration and was constantly shocked that there was a credible allegation of rape against Clinton and yet it wasn’t being made an issue. This was a White House insider, amazed that there wasn’t more persecution of Clinton.

Now imagine that there was a credible allegation of rape made against Obama. It would be a madhouse. It already is a madhouse and there isn’t a credible allegation of anything other than that his skin isn’t lilly white.