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| Monday, May 20, 2013 |
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In a word, no. There was an essay in Time magazine years ago called “A Moment For The Dead,” that captures the right idea: “There is nothing wrong with feeling relieved. It is not required, it is not human nature, to mourn the soldiers who were arrayed to kill you. Killing the Iraqis meant that Americans and their partners did not have to face them on the battlefield and maybe die. Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972609,00.html#ixzz1LAZVykNs In other words, celebrations in the street are not a correct response. Relief, fine. Gratitude, ok. Happiness, I guess. Drunken celebrations and chanting U!S!A!, no. That makes us look way too much like the arabs who celebrated the deaths of the Americans who died on 9/11. Remember how you felt when you saw those videos? |
I tend to agree, rejoicing in his killing is not the appropriate response. For the most part I think he had been effectively neutralized for some time so his death is more symbolic than anything. As an event it gives us (as a nation) an opportunity to show the world a mature response to contrast bullets in the air parades that were witnessed in some places after 9/11. I would be disappointed to see images of people in the streets cheering as though some burden had been lifted. It would give to much credit to the nihilist who has spent most of the last ten years (I hope anyway) sleeping on a thin mat in a cold cave. In a sense, I am a little bit glad that it happened when and how it did, after a long period of him spider-holing only to be finally killed in apparent luxury. I don’t know that one could have hoped for a better scenario to nullify the his supporter’s case for martyrdom, short of him being found in a strip club or with a Gideon bible in his pocket. And the fact that the operation was apparently executed so cleanly allows us to focus on the victory of good over evil, liberal democracy over terrorism. Though I do wish we would have heard more about this a a potential turning point for those cultures, particularly Afghanistan and Pakistan, that are struggling to overcome Islamic extremism. In short I think we should definitely celebrate the victory that Bin Laden’s killing is over everything he stood for and hope that his death would diminish support for those who would take his place. |
MCQ: you’re wrong It’s good to celebrate justice being done. What’s worth mourning is the fact of Osama’s birth. ESO: to answer your question, for me this doesn’t bring peace — yet. I spent a solid half hour crying like I had never cried before in my life, primarily reliving the loss of Sept.11, and thinking about the conversation I would have with my 7 year old son in the morning about how the bad man who was responsible for the death of the person he was named for was now gone. I believe that the Atonement is broad enough to cover the sins of Osama bin Laden; I’m grateful that that bastard is quite unlikely to avail himself of it. |
Tom, I didn’t say we should mourn. Are you saying all the people in the streets are celebrating justice? If that’s true, then I’m fine with it, but we both know that’s a lie. And your response is giving bin Laden way too much credit and recognition. |
From the NYT: In Westchester, Harry Waizer, a survivor, paused nearly a minute before he began to speak when reached by phone. “If this means there is one less death in the future, then I’m glad for that,” said Mr. Waizer, who was in an elevator riding to work in the north tower when the plane struck the building. He made it down the stairs, but suffered third-degree burns. “But I just can’t find it in me to be glad one more person is dead, even if it is Osama bin Laden.” Asked whether he felt any closure, Mr. Waizer said, “I’ve said for years I didn’t think there would be, but I’ll probably need to think about that more, now that it actually happened.” “You know, the dead are still dead,” he added. “So in that sense, there is no such thing as closure.” |
I’m with MCQ and MAC on this one–the victory laps are wholly inappropriate. |
Hah, after posting my comment on the other thread, I’m glad to read here that I’m not sticking my neck out by saying what I did as much as I thought I was. |
Not only that, Peter, but his death is also an utter irrelevance in the struggle against Islamic terrorism. |
Not that this is not good news or a real cause for joy, but in the grand scheme of things does this not really make us look bad? Billions of dollars and 10+ years and thousands of US military persons killed to get one guy who is largely symbolic. Was it worth it? Moreover, the bigger deal we make of it the more of martyr we make of him. Great, we got him. Next issue. |
That’s right james, except that I don’t think all of our military actions since 9/11 have been focused on bin Laden. We have had other objectives, too. And yes, this took way too long. |
ESO: But: isn’t it a little sick to be so happy at someone’s death? Nah. Why would it be? Everyone dies sooner or later and for very practical reasons sooner is occasionally preferable. |
I have very mixed feelings about this. I am glad he is gone and not there to inspire others and taunt us. I am proud that our country accomplished the difficult task of tracking him down. I wish that violence didn’t beget violence, but this man is a mass murderer and the occupants of the compound resisted when US forces entered. So he got what he wanted, a violent martyrdom at the hands of his enemies. In any case the intellectual side of me tells me that I should feel relief but not joy. The whole thing from the embassy bombings to the Cole to 9-11 to our current wars is regrettable. But then during the coverage last night they showed the towers coming down and those more moderate thoughts were swept aside. I don’t blame the crowds chanting, “USA! USA!” and I think that any comparison to the crowds cheering on 9-11 is misguided. |
This is another example of Americans fetishizing violence. Sure, there is some appropriate catharsis, but if you think this will somehow not just breed more American triumphalism and embolden us to take up more violence, you are mistaken. |
I’ve been waiting to see if someone would make this comment in light of bbell’s post from last week. I don’t believe it, but someone had to say it: Don’t you find it the slightest bit suspicious that Obama finally makes this announcement right now while he is battling scrutiny of the “birth certificate” that he allegedly produced? |
No Ron, nobody has to say that. Especially those that don’t believe it. |
Liken the gladness shared to the gladness expressed at the death of Hitler. Maybe not to such a wide spread event but the man is responsible for the death of many innocents. That being said, celebrating a sign of a peace is not obscene. Those criticizing the way others celebrate come off as judgmental or “holier than thou”. The thing that bugs me is people claiming he won’t get into Heaven. I’m sorry but I know nothing that would give a 100% certainty that the gates just aren’t for him. I’m not God nor pretend to be. Claiming that a man is ineligible for forgiveness is ludicrous. |
ARJ, |
Ron he isn’t battling scrutiny, he was born in the United States. Now two documents have been released proving that fact. if he was waiting until it was the best time politically Bin Laden would have been killed the last week of October in 2012. I don’t feel guilty being happy about Bin Laden’s death because in my mind that could bring us one step closer to bring an end to the war over there and having more of our troops come home. Now it may not end up having the slightest impact on that situation, but I can hope. |
Jacob S (#13): This is another example of Americans fetishizing violence All humans “fetish” violence in this way. It’s in our DNA. Happiness at the death of an enemy is NOT a unique American phenomenon. |
nitpicking. |
MCQ (#4): Are you saying all the people in the streets are celebrating justice? Sure. But they were also celebrating victory. (A victory that took way to long to acheive). Calling a celebration of victory inappropriate is silly in my opinion. |
Ron, go stir your own pot then. |
“All humans “fetish” violence in this way. It’s in our DNA. Happiness at the death of an enemy is NOT a unique American phenomenon.” Agreed, but we’re talking about America here, so that was my focus. Also, just because it’s common doesn’t make it right. |
Jacob S.:Also, just because it’s common doesn’t make it right. I agree. But the fact that rejoicing in victory is a common human behavior is not evidence that rejoicing in victory is wrong either. |
“But the fact that rejoicing in victory is a common human behavior is not evidence that rejoicing in victory is wrong either.” I agree (this is fun). Luckily I’ve not made that claim. As I said before, I think violence begets violence, and that we rely on it far too often in our society to solve our problems. I think Christ taught us to forgive all men, to turn the other cheek, to meet violence with peace. I don’t think celebrations and chants of USA! USA! reflect those teachings. I don’t begrudge others the initial reaction of celebration, as you said it is human nature to revel over the defeat of our enemies, but I do think it is the wrong reaction and I hope upon further reflection we move past the embrace of violence as a problem-solving mechanism. |
Ron @ 14, Less than 24 hours before the announcement, Obama is at the White House correspondents dinner mocking Trump with an image of bikini clad girls and neon lights in front of the White House. And then 24 house later he has to interrupt Trump’s most anticipated episode of Celebrity Apprentice, top rated Sunday evening TV show, to make the Osama announcement. I for one think it is hysterical that what might be the single durable accomplishment of Obama’s presidency is going to footnoted with a petty feud and the question of whether or not LaToya got rehired. I don’t know that it would have been worse if Obama had toilet paper on his shoe when he walked up to the podium, or a big booger on his nose. LOL!!! I won’t rejoice of someone’s death but I will laugh at that. LOL!!! |
Jacob S: I think Christ taught us to forgive all men, to turn the other cheek, to meet violence with peace. Therein lies the problem. We have records of Jesus saying those things are wonderful in the NT. But we also have records of Jesus directing all kinds of killing and war in the OT and the BofM. So which is it? Can we be happy as a country with our victories or not? I say we should rejoice when we defeat our enemies and be sad when our enemies attack us and kill our people. Being sad when both happen is foolish. |
Thanks ESO – I too was unsure how to feel. I felt relieved that he would not be able to spread his hate and filth any longer. However, rejoicing over the death strikes me as a bit too much… |
MAC, you really think this was all planned around a feud with Donald Trump? If so, why not wait until a bit closer to the election? You’re off your rocker. |
Geoff J: I can’t think of anywhere in the BoM where the people were taught to or rewarded for celebrating or rejoicing over the death of an enemy. In fact, I think one of the overarching lessons from the BoM is that violence is the absolute least preferable way to solve problems and live Christ-like lives. Not only do we have Jesus’ words in the New Testament, but we also have his words in modern revelation saying the same sorts of things. I’m thinking of D&C 98 in particular. Finally, and I may be off on this one, but I stopped putting much weight on the Old Testament to resolve moral quandaries long ago. “Being sad when both happen is foolish.” Why? |
Jacob S, If you are sad when you lose battles and sad when you win battles then you are needlessly and foolishly always sad. Men are that they might have joy. As for the Nephites rejoicing in victories… You didn’t look very hard did you? Here are a couple of links on the word “rejoice” in the book of Alma alone. No doubt more searching would turn up more examples of joy and celebration over victory in battle: http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/45.1?lang=eng#primary Of course you are free to choose sadness all you want. Some of us choose to be happy in victory. I hope you don’t mind. |
First, I never said anything about anybody being sad, so that just seems like a straw man to me. Second, those are nice examples of the people rejoicing for being delivered from their enemies, but not for people rejoicing at the deaths of their enemies. It’s the difference between rejoicing that have not fallen under Al Qaeda rule and that we maintain our basic freedoms as opposed to rejoicing over individual deaths of Al Qaeda members. That seems like an important distinction. |
Absolutely not, no way, no how. What did I say that made you think that it was anything more than a very funny coincidence? You are holding me to a standard that you don’t seem to be applying to anyone else. I can only assume you are racially motivated. |
Snort! Ok Jacob S. |
I hope I’m not that overbearing guy that no one likes to talk to, I was just talking through the issues. No hard feelings, I hope. I love NCT, by the way, and as a late comer always hope it’ll get busy again. |
“Not only that, Peter, but his death is also an utter irrelevance in the struggle against Islamic terrorism.” I agree that Bin Laden is not the only problem we have vis-a-vis Islamic terrorism, and that his influence has waned in recent years. But I think it goes too far to say that his death is “utterly irrelevant.” For better or worse, he was the face of Islamic “resistance” against the West, both for the West and for many terrorists themselves. If nothing else, his death will be a highly symbolic event for those on both sides of the equation. So if the question is, “Will Bin Laden’s death end Islamic terrorism?” then the answer is of course no. But that’s a different question than whether it will have a lasting impact–one way or another–on the issue. |
MAC, why would it be footnoted with a petty feud unless people were dumb enough to think the timing had anything to do with a feud? |
Geoff, “they gave thanks unto the Lord their God; yea, and they did bfast much and pray much, and they did worship God with exceedingly great joy.” So you’re tellling me that’s what people were doing in the streets last night? I must have really misinterpreted those videos. |
jj, I think he was just saying this: |
MCQ, If the complaint is that the celebrations were tacky in some cases I won’t argue against that. People like to get drunk and celebrate when their team gets a big victory; they like to get drunk and celebrate when their country gets a big victory too. I personally don’t begrudge them celebrating in either case. |
We have records of Jesus saying those things are wonderful in the NT. But we also have records of Jesus directing all kinds of killing and war in the OT and the BofM. So which is it? False dilemma. Jesus can direct the killing of whomever he wants. Mankind may not. It’s a double standard and you’ll just have to live with it. |
Well actually Peter people can direct (and carry out) the killing of other people. It happens all of the time. The question is whether we should kill other people in cases like this. I say yes. But if you disagree I can respect your opinion on that. |
jjohnson @ 38, For the exact reason that I stated. It is a funny coincidence. To suggest anything else reflects more on your proclivity for conspiracy than it does mine. |
MAC, I think the only proclivity being reflected from your comment 26 is your tendency to denigrate the current president. “I for one think it is hysterical that what might be the single durable accomplishment of Obama’s presidency is going to footnoted (sic) with a petty feud…I don’t know that it would have been worse if Obama had toilet paper on his shoe when he walked up to the podium, or a big booger on his nose.” Please. That’s pathetic. No one cares about Trump’s “involvement” in the death of bin Laden, and there’s no chance of the “feud” being attached as a footnote to the death of bin Laden. And I doubt anyone thinks the footnote exists, except perhaps you, the arrogant Donald, and some birthers. |
I personally, don’t see this as cause to celebrate. Rather, I rather play with the devil I know, than the one I don’t. someone more evil can easily replace Bin Laden, It’s entirely possible because after 10 years of fighting the Taliban know how the Americans fight and put up more resistance. |
Tim, You waited until I gave him credit for having accomplished something before you accuse me of denigrating him? |
Don’t get me wrong, Geoff; I don’t doubt mankind’s ability to direct and carry out the killing of other people. I’m also inclined to take the scriptural actors at their word that Jesus made them do it. But however divinely sanctioned a killing might be, Jesus still doesn’t want us prancing around the endzone. As a nation under God, we Americans hold ourselves to higher standards than the Nephites ever did and, unlike them, we are quick to curb excessive celebration with 15 yard penalties. |
I, too, felt some dismay about the celebrations of this man’s death. But I watched Robin Roberts with tears in her eyes as she reported from Ground Zero…and others who’d lost their friends and loved ones. I think, for them, there was probably the same sense of closure–if that’s possible—that loved ones feel in court when murderers are sentenced. No relief of the pain of missing them, but some sort of, yep, justice. Another thought, D’Nesh D’Souza (sorry if I spelled his name wrong) says that we do have to utterly kick the butts of these terrorists to get them to respect us. He writes convincingly (convinced me anyway) about how efforts to negotiate with them are useless. So, possibly, this act sent a clear message to Al Queda. I hope so. I don’t know, there’s a lot about the world today that bothers me. |
He writes convincingly (convinced me anyway) about how efforts to negotiate with them are useless. So, possibly, this act sent a clear message to Al Queda. You know, I kind of have to wonder if this wasn’t Governor Boggs line of thinking, too. That’s not to say that the early Saints were guilty of driving burning covered wagons into the Governor’s Mansion or some such thing, but, still… “You realize, of course, that you just can’t negotiate with those Mormons. No matter what you tell them, they’re going to insist that that Joseph Smith guy is a prophet, and that their Golden Bible is real, and that angels really do deliver histories of earlier civilizations to people along with special glasses with which they can be read. So, I think it’s time for the State of Missouri to utterly kick their butts and send them a clear message.” |
Really, Mark? After this and your T&S postings, I’m calling you out for being a troll. |
Equating Mormons with Al Quaida? How could that possibly be the behavior of a troll? |
Mark, did you read where I asked why I’m wrong when I said the earth was flat? You’re wrong here for the same reasons. |
I guess it’s the duty of a troll to question assumptions. Sorry if that upsets people. |
53. Nice try, but that dog won’t hunt. I’m all for questioning assumptions, but there needs to be some inkling of probable cause. What you just did is like unto us questioning the assumption that you’re not a child molester and saying sorry if that upsets you. Or like saying the president’s black. He must not be american… The huge difference you’re missing Mark is that early Mormons didn’t teach that it was their priesthood duty to kill as many Missourians as possible. |
You’re not questioning assumptions. Your making idiotic comparisons. But we need to stop responding to the troll. (I would call him something else, but, alas, my comment would never be posted) |
Peter LLC: we are quick to curb excessive celebration with 15 yard penalties. I like this analogy. Good point. |
I’m just annoyed with all the teen and 20-somethings livin’ it up in the streets having a celebration, when they can barely even remember 9/11 and didn’t have the capacity to understand it at all. |
1984 |
[...] who think assassination is wrong on principle (but Bin Laden is an exception), to people who think at least the celebrating is inappropriate (empathizing with the tragedy of human death), to people (like me) [...] |
