53 Comments | leave a comment | RSS 2.0 for this post | trackback |
| Saturday, May 25, 2013 |
|
- A Bird's Eye View
- A Motley Vision
- Adventures in Mormonism
- Blognitive Dissonance
- Book of Mormon Blog
- By Common Consent
- Ethesis
- Face of the Other
- Faith Promoting Rumor
- Feminist Mormon Housewives
- Flooding the Earth With the Book of Mormon
- Golden Road to Samarqand
- Head Life
- Just Sayin'
- Juvenile Instructor
- Messanger & Advocate
- Millennial Star
- Mormon Matters
- Mormon Mommy Wars
- New Cool Thang
- Nine Moons
- Old Testament Blog
- Our Mother's Keeper
- Proud Daughter of Eve
- Segullah
- Sunstone Blog
- Times & Seasons
- Wheat and Tares
- Zelophehad's Daughters
Is this sort of distribution normal for Broadway or for NPR? |
NPR regularly makes EVIL available for streaming. For instance, last month they had the new Paul Simon album up for a week or so. What could be worse than that? I listened to it. TWICE! |
Be warned, if you listen and enjoy this, you are probably a “so-called “Mormons” and supposedly “Active Members”. http://www.sixteensmallstones.org/the-book-of-mormon-musical-is-anti-mormon-dreck |
There’s a lot of judging going on there, which is nothing new I suppose. I’m reminded of JMW’s spectacular exit from the bloggernacle years ago. |
I love NPR. All day, every day. Never occurred to me there was a problem with it. Maybe I just can’t judge evil anymore. I think I will pass on the free BofM music download. I have read enough reviews to get the jist of the production. I don’t want to have that music rattling around in my brain next Sunday as I’m taking the Sacrament. |
That article is far more offensive than Otterson’s. At least Otterson didn’t accuse members who saw it as not being members anymore. Unbelievable. |
I listened to all the songs and laughed a lot. The songs are pretty well written and the the one about Salt Lake City and the one called “Baptize Me” are particularly fun. We don’t need to get all offended about this stuff, it’s mostly harmless fun. I worried more about it being offensive to Africans than to Mormons. Max makes me laugh too. He gets so many things wrong in his “review” that it’s hard to take seriously. He’s clearly completely tone-deaf when it comes to sarcasm, because this play is not sarcastic. It plays the humor straight from beginning to end. I do have some objections to it (which I have written about here: http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1481), and obviously the language is not for everyone, but the thing that Max misses is the humor. The songs are meant to be funny. The whole thing is geared to make people laugh. Reactions like Max’s are just going to make people think that Mormons are humorless a**holes. Of course, in Max’s case, they would be right. |
Here’s the thing that, for me, cinches the fact that this is not a play that is meant to mock Mormon beliefs. In the song “All American Prophet” the story of Joseph Smith is told. It’s not meant to be a religious tract or a scholarly dissertation, it’s just a fun song, but it gets the story mostly right, and there’s one part that is actually kind of poignant. In telling about Joseph’s death, the prophet is shown crying out to God, and he says the following: “Oh God, why are you letting me die without having me show people the plates? They’ll have no proof I was telling the truth or not. They’ll have to believe it just ’cause… Oh, I guess that’s kinda what you were going for.” In addition to being a bit of a funny death scene, that is also played totally straight, not sarcastic, and because of that, it’s touching. It’s the sort of thing a real person in Joseph’s position might have actually said and it’s actually something that the real Joseph actually struggled with a bit in the early part of his life. Of course he wanted to prove himself to people, and of course the Lord would not allow any obvious proofs to take place. That is part of the real struggle in the story of Joseph Smith. And the fact that it’s in there, in a broadway musical that is designed mainly to get people laughing is a sure sign that the creators of this musical were not interested in mocking. They were interested in telling a story about real people and getting it right, and then making the story fun and funny. Most people would not enjoy this musical if it was just a sarcastic mockery of religion in general or Mormonism specifically. But Max thinks most people are stupid or evil and he’s one of the few who sees the truth. People who look at the world that way should probably not see or listen to musical theater. It’s not for them. |
MCQ, what other religion is asked to good-naturedly chuckle along with “a bit of a funny death scene” about its martyred prophet? Why should I? So that I’m not thought to be a “humorless asshole”? How transgressive, irreverent, brave these musical theater types are! What could take more bravery than making fun of Mormons for being stupid rubes! I had better laugh along with them so it’s clear that I’m not a stupid, humorless rube myself. Fuck that shit. |
I’m not wild about the way gst said it – but I think he’s right. |
gst, every religion is asked to do that, every single one. If you want to be part of a multicuiltural society, the price you pay for entry is to not get offended when people don’t share your precise point of view, especially about your own culture. But the larger question is why every time anyone says anything about Mormons, our people are so ready to get offended and take their ball and go sulk in a corner. The Mormons documentary was a perfect example of this. Many Church members refused to watch it and many of the ones who did were deeply offended and put out by it. And it was not offensive in any way. This musical is not truly offensive either, it’s just not our precise point of view. That’s why I quoted the lyrics, to show that it’s actually NOT “making fun of Mormons for being stupid rubes!” The fact that you contuinue to insist that it is doing that, despite evidence and insistence to the contrary from its creators and people who have actually seen it says a lot more about you than it does about this musical. And I have to say that I’m really surprised by this attitude coming from you, in particular. I expect it from people like Max, but I had thought you were more mature and enlightened. Sorry to see I was wrong. |
The same goes for you, danithew. |
BTW, if it were actually accurate that this show was “making fun of Mormons for being stupid rubes” I would not be defending it. But since thaty is a lie, and an obvious lie at that, it seems to me to be particularly idiotic for us to be getting bent out of shape over it. |
Oh boy. On one hand we’re supposed to be able to lighten up and just laugh along and on the other hand accepting and appreciating this musical is some kind of litmus test to determine whether an LDS person is mature, enlightened and appreciates multiculturalism. MCQ, you have really swallowed the kool-aid. |
True, I have not seen it. I just listened to the score at the link provided above. So maybe if I had the libretto I’d have a better picture. But from what I could piece together, it is so very clearly casting us a rubes–not for the silly stuff in which we believe (seer stones, etc) but for stuff that we don’t actually believe (general oblviousness to real problems of Africans, and thinking that Mormon happy talk can solve them). If you want to laugh at me for what I believe, fine, but don’t ascribe stupidity to me that isn’t mine and laugh at me for that. For example, I had no problem with the South Park episode about Joseph Smith–we actually believe everything they said about Joseph Smith, and it was funny. Here, however, they’re laughing at us for things we don’t believe, (which galls a bit when you consider what we actually do for Africans–Otterson’s point). What is most annoying is the expectation that I laugh along with this or be “humorless or excessively devout,” the only two groups that the Washington Post reviewer said wouldn’t like it. And who wants to be those things? I’m not calling for boycotts or marching or anything, but mightn’t you just allow that I not appreciate it without considering me a humorless prig? I don’t think I need to prove my credentials as one who appreciates a bit of irreverent humor from time to time to this group. |
what other religion is asked to good-naturedly chuckle along with “a bit of a funny death scene” about its martyred prophet? The Life of Brian, maybe? Ironic that this question comes up on a day when many people are putting Monty Python quotes in their FB statuses. |
But Mark, isn’t there a difference between blasphemous joking about the dominant religion (Christianity generally) and a marginalized, historically persecuted minority (Mormon Christians)? A friend proposes that we mount a production with “a bit of a funny death scene” for Harvey Milk and see if the Mormons and musical theater crowd are all laughing together still. |
I actually don’t think that Parker and Stone are anti-Mormons, in the sense that they wish us ill or seek to disrupt our program. They’re just in the yuks business, and to two guys growing up in western Colorado we look like pretty low-hanging fruit. I just resent the pressure to always laugh along or be thought a prude. |
gst, you’re a fan of NRO’s The Corner, right? Do you remember the kneeslappers that were making the rounds there a few years back about AIDS? I also know that I can occasionally hear homo jokes at a certain Wodehousian blog. isn’t there a difference between blasphemous joking about the dominant religion (Christianity generally) and a marginalized, historically persecuted minority (Mormon Christians)? Maybe. I don’t know. But I do know that I make polygamist jokes all the time, so I probably don’t have a leg to stand on. |
I should also probably make clear that I also resent any pressure to either laugh along or be thought a prude. I have absolutely no desire to see this musical or listen to the soundtrack, at all. It simply has no appeal for me whatsoever. I choose to avoid it, for reasons of my own, and people can make of it what they will. However, I think the freakout response on display in certain quarters is counter-productive. |
What I want to know is what Africans think, because they arguably come off a lot worse than the Mormons. |
Thank you! If this kind of image of Africans were portrayed in any other context it would be run out of town as straight-up racist. I think it gets a pass because it’s being used as a backdrop for humor about something else. Look, as I said, I have my own problems with this musical, but you guys can’t read the crap that JMW wrote and tell me that’s the reaction we want to see from our corner. It’s not a choice between laughing along or being thought a prude, that’s a false dichotomy. There are a number of ways to react to this musical, not just two. But one of those ways is completely over the top stupid. I’ll let you guess which one. |
danithew, your phony hand wringing in #14 is really funny. Thanks for the laugh. |
MCQ – no phony hand wringing going on – in fact there’s no wringing going on at all. I just think you are making contradictory arguments. On one hand you are saying that we should enjoy this musical because it’s just a good time. As you say in comment #7: “We don’t need to get all offended about this stuff, it’s mostly harmless fun.” But then in your response to GST you show that you are in fact taking the musical very seriously. You write:
Seems you are taking the musical quite seriously, actually. Harmless fun or a mark of maturity and enlightenment? Which is it? This reminds me a bit of the two-pronged self-contradictory arguments that went on during the whole Banner of Heaven question – on one hand people were saying it was just good fun and commenters who had been duped were taking themselves too seriously *and* at the same time saying that the negative response was a clear mark of why Mormons would never embrace great ART. |
Nunsense, anyone? Alright, not quite analogous, but this is hardly unprecedented territory, is it? I have neither seen the musical nor had a chance to listen to the soundtrack. However, if you were looking at this more from an African point of view rather than from a Mormon one, I don’t think you would really feel like it was about Mormons. I think you might see it as a critique of both missionary efforts there (and, let’s face it, Mormons are WAY late to that game–the Catholics and Anglicans screwed Africa for hundreds of years before we bothered to give it a shot) and current, generally secular, humanitarian aid efforts. Throw in some imperialism, too. These efforts are often justified at their points of origin as helpful yet at the point of execution are often laughably misguided and dismissive of local culture if they bother t learn about it at all. They could have told this story and substituted, say, the Mill Hill Brothers for Mormons, but, let’s face it, Mormons are MUCH more interesting–they make for better comedy. Mormons are, to a great extent, the face of modern proselyting. While many of the issues the Ugandans in the show are dealing with are painfully accurate, I certainly think that making comedy of those is much more suspect than examining the Joseph Smith story. I mean, the rape of babies: how can you joke about that? And, as others have mentioned, I have been very interested in the lack of criticism about the portrayal of Africans. Anyway, like I said, I have not seen or heard the show–I am basing the above on the plot synopsis I have read. I could be wrong. This is an interesting reaction from a Mormon but outside the blogernaccle (includes some insight into the business end of it): |
Frogs don’t do very well in it either. |
Yes–where is the outrage? |
It is unfortunate that the show exists (i.e., that it was ever written and produced), but most likely the best response is simply to ignore it and let it pass into oblivion without direct comment. JMO |
I totally agree with Danithew that your opinion on this musical is some type of litmus test that shows your cultural coolness or lack therof is wrong. I could care less about musical theatre and I know few people who do. Sure I have been to Cats and few other performances but generally I have little interest in this type of entertainment. There is a small liberal secular portion of the US population that cares about musical theatre. Most of these folks don’t like Mormons anyway and I could care less. This musical will run its course. I think we should ignore it mostly. I am confident that almost nobody I know outside of the bloggernaccle will see it. |
bbell, That’s like saying you shouldn’t be familiar with Krakauer’s “Under the Banner of Heaven” simply because faithful Mormons won’t read it, so it doesn’t matter. Let me tell you what happened with me and that book. Everybody that I knew who wasn’t Mormon and had any culture at all asked me about it. The same thing is going to happen once the musical wins a boatload of Tony awards. If your response is, “I am actively ignoring it!” you will be literally ignorant, and miss out on a chance to discuss your religion with someone who has a modicum of momentary shared interest on the topic. If you want opportunities to share the gospel you should be glad for the exposure that this is bringing, even if you disagree with its tone or message. I’m not saying you have to memorize the songs or even listen to it if you feel it will be overwhelmingly offensive. But being able to discuss it intelligently isn’t a bad thing. |
To which I should add, telling someone that is interested in the musical that it is so offensive that it doesn’t merit your attention is only going to turn them off. You’re telling them that what interests them is beneath you. |
Bbell, don’t forget Mark Steyn, the conservative musical theater writer. |
ARJ, I am not actively ignoring it. I have read the reviews like everybody else in the bloggernaccle. I am simply stating that it’s impact will be really small due to the size and scope of the size of the section of the American population that attends and pays attention to musical theatre. I find this small segment to be completely disconnected from mainstream middle class church going Americans. I do agree with you that publicity is usually good for the church and I am not really that concerned about the provincial crazies in the musical theatre world Do you really know that many people that pay attention to the Tony awards? |
“There is a small liberal secular portion of the US population that cares about musical theatre.” Then it’s certainly interesting that the creators of this particular musical have more in common politically with Ayn Rand than with most liberals… |
bbell, Do you know how many people watch South Park? The influence of this isn’t going to be limited to “provincial crazies”, though I’m sure that your disdain for people interested in the topic will be evident when they attempt to discuss it with you. |
Huh–I’d always thought of musicals as being prime Mormon entertainment. Do I only know weird Mormons? Could be. |
ArJ, 4 million people or so watch South Park. That is less then 1.5% of the US population. I would bet money that The Mormon musical will sell less tickets this year then the attendance for a season for the 4 high school football teams in my school district. Let alone our conference. Like I said its impact will be tiny. |
bbell, What sort of nonsense is that? High school football games have the same audience, game after game and offer little in terms of unique influence on culture. Roughly 400,000 people will see The Book of Mormon this year. The comparison of audiences that you’ve set up couldn’t be sillier. Audiences for successful musicals number in the tens of millions over time. Not to mention that these guys could do a movie adaptation pretty easily if they wanted to. You can be dismissive all you want to, but your ridiculous comparisons don’t bolster your case. |
ESO, President Monson is not weird. He is over 80, though. Along bbell’s point, Wicked has been a big deal on Broadway for eight years already, but I think a couple months ago was the first time I heard a song from the show. Can anyone hum a tune from Miss Saigon? Broadway doesn’t have as much centrality in American culture as it did decades ago when it created the inspiring lyrics and dialogues that President Monson finds useful for his talks. |
“Frogs don’t do very well in it either.” HA! danithew, it may come as a shock to you, but something that is harmless fun may in fact be a good test of whether you are mature and enlightened. Mature and enlightened people have a sense of humor, especially about themselves and their institutions. They don’t get all sulky and pouty when confronted with another point of view. The Banner of Heaven probably is a great example of this, but not in the way that you mean. Those who got all offended and are still pouting about it showed that they are not very mature or enlightened. Those who laughed it off and wore the t-shirt with pride were the mature and enlightened ones. bbell, we’re not talking about “coolness” here. Where did you get that? You seem to be projecting from some sort of problem you encountered in high school. Let me help you out: your opinion on any broadway musical can never be a test of coolness. Not now, not ever. And that includes West Side Story. |
MCQ, I hate to break this to you. But take it from a HS jock. Liking musicals is not exactly a ticket to coolness in high school. I am not sure why you like to take personal shots at me. |
Sir, |
Um, bbell, that’s exactly what I was saying. The fact that I have to explain that may be one indication why I might take the occassional shot at you. You’re ruining my best jokes! |
I got it, MCQ. Bbell’s reaction made it even better, though. |
The show is sold out for it’s run, you can hardly say nobody will see it. As for musicals being only for the “liberal elite”, Utah is full of theaters that show musicals, and I doubt there are enough “liberal elite” around here to keep them in business. There’s a reason BYUs dance team is so popular bbell, and it’s not because those East Coast elites are flying in to support them. As for “…take it from a HS jock. Liking musicals is not exactly a ticket to coolness in high school. I am not sure why you like to take personal shots at me.” I hope nobody here is still worried about being cool in high school. |
JJ, Based on raw numbers I maintain that this musical for good or bad is of little importance to either the pro-LDS or anti-LDS side. I really don’t know if the musical itself is a negative or a positive for the church for the viewers that will see it. Most already have pre-formed opions about the church Somebody up above stated that 400K people would see this musical this year. With a population of about 310 million this comes up .00129 of the population of the US. So I seriously doubt its of any importance. Otterson should have left well enough alone. |
bbell, Here’s another perspective on it. In a few years time (I’m being purposely vague) more unique individuals will have seen it than will have attended the temple. Is the temple significant? :) My point is merely that one might do well to have an actual informed opinion of the thing, for reasons that I’ve previously stated. YMMV |
“A friend proposes that we mount a production with “a bit of a funny death scene” for Harvey Milk and see if the Mormons and musical theater crowd are all laughing together still.” good point. But I don’t feel compelled to laugh at us to show what a good sport I am. I feel compelled because we’re really funny. That being said, this musical went too far. And I’m just basing that on the previous post about it. I wouldn’t go see it. John Mansfield, you know, I feel terrible saying this, but I think the prophet’s kind of weird. It hit me last conference. His teeth are really big and he tries to be funny–sometimes he is, but those other times, he just seems a little weird. It doesn’t make the church not true, it just is what it is. I have never seen an episode of South Park. Not even a bit of it. What’s ymmv? |
Regarding the proposed Harvey Milk production number, the reviews of the South Park duo’s puppet movie mentioned a song “Everyone Has AIDS.” I don’t know if it was mocking diseased people or show biz obsession with the disease. “What’s ymmv? |
“Everyone Has AIDS” is from Team America. It’s mocking the musical Rent and the feeling one might come away from that play thinking that yes, everyone DOES have AIDS. |
annegb, The prophet can also wiggle his ears pretty well. but you have to be in priesthood session to see him pull that trick. YMMV stands for Your Mileage My Vary. The point being that what works for my might not work for you. |
What you have to remember about gst is: when he was a small boy, an irreverent, vulgar Broadway musical about Mormons SHOT AND KILLED HIS PARENTS. |
So now he’s Batman? |
