Keri – I would say that people like you (allergies to vaccins) are precisely the reason those of us who are not allergic should get vaccinated to protect people like you from the illness!

14 confirmed patients, 8,321 individuals tracked down, 15,120 work hours lost at 7 Arizona hospitals due to furloughs of staff who were not appropriately vaccinated, and almost $800,000 spent by 2 hospitals just to contain the disease–and it all could have been prevented.

-What Vaccine Refusal Really Costs: Measles in Arizona

It also, quite strangely, seems to be a wacky, liberal, anti-government thing. Generally, conservatives seem to be the anti-science ones, but plenty of liberals have jumped on the anti-vaccine movement too.

Pertinent to this discussion is the recent outbreak in Utah involving a family that went to Eastern Europe to pick up a missionary. The missionary had been, of course, vaccinated (she wouldn’t have been able to serve otherwise). The family wasn’t, and brought the disease home with them.

Devyn,

How does the argument with free agency go when its argued with the missionary department?

There was a survey done on LDS attitudes on vaccination (http://mmbio221.byu.edu/Home/tabid/3566/EntryId/61/Default.aspx) and (http://mmbio221.byu.edu/Home/tabid/3566/EntryId/60/Default.aspx). I totally agree that it is the fringes on both the right and the left that are the most vehemently anti-vaccine, but unfortunately there are a lot of people (mostly mothers) who I wouldn’t say are on the fringe but who have a hard time thinking rationally about the issue.

How about “the spirit confirms that my child should not be vaccinated against x or y”? Due to several possible scenarios, this could be the best course for a child. I think that the missionary department would opt to send a missionary who does not want to be vaccinated to an area where it is not needed.
While truly deadly or highly infectious severe diseases are best addressed via vaccination, others, such as the seasonal flu, are generally best fought by a healthy immune system. Do certain childhood vaccines cause autism? I have no idea. This has not been proven. Do vaccines cause health problems to the individual? Yes, they are designed to do so. The only thing that vaccines are certain to do are prevent a mass outbreak of disease. This is why governments push them so much. Generally, vaccines spread out the timing and reduce the worst effects of sicknesses. Society can tolerate this much easier than an infrequent mass outbreak.

As I understand it, if a missionary wants to restrict where he’s called to serve, he has to have “competent medical authority” back up the claimed restriction.

An asthma sufferer may need to be restricted from places that have high pollution or high pollen concentrations. There could be conditions which would contra-indicate extreme high or low temperatures, or extreme high or low humidity, or high altitudes.

If a missionary wants to avoid a certain vaccination, he probably likely needs to state ahead of the call, in the medical part of the application, what vaccinations he needs to avoid, and have a properly licensed doctor certify that he shouldn’t have such-and-such vaccination, based on either a past bad reaction to it, or stating that he has a condition for which “X” vaccination is generally known in the medical community to be contra-indicated.

Vaccinations for different things are good for different periods of time. Some vaccinations are “one and done”, just one shot/dose is good for your whole lifetime. Others, usually in childhood, have a series of several shots, and after that series, you’re good for life. Others are good for “X” number of years, up to 20 or so. Others are needed every year, or every 1/2 year.

I’m not sure how I feel on this issue. I had all my kids fully immunized. But things have changed. They are immunized for so many more things. Maybe it was here, but I heard somewhere that one of the drug companies had put out a problem vaccine. Problem being a catch-all phrase for something I can’t remember. But then the company just distributed them to poor people in Africa.

I don’t understand why there have to be so many and so many piled on at once. I never got sick from immunizations when I was a little girl and my two boys didn’t either. But when Sarah came along 13 years later, she got sick every time.

Now the kids get even sicker. I do not personally know a child or even the child of somebody who knows somebody who’s had these illnesses. I know they happen, but I still smell a rat. I think the drug companies are up to no good.

So I have mixed emotions and I’m really glad my kids are grown up now.

The subject of vaccinations ties in to illegal immigration.

Illegal immigrants don’t need to prove they are healthy, disease free, and properly vaccinated in order to get in the US like those properly applying for a visa.

Those who come here unvaccinated and live in enclaves of other unvaccinated illegals create ripe opportunities for clusters of outbreaks, which then threaten the neighboring unvaccinated legal population in addition to their fellow illegals in the enclaves.

Not an insignificant number of illegals are bringing diseases for which most Americans have not been vaccinated against.

Not an insignificant number of illegals are bringing _drug-resistant_ diseases with them (tuberculosis from Mexico is one), due to the fact that most drugs (which require a prescription in the US) don’t require a prescription in Mexico, and people self-medicate improperly, thereby creating the drug-resistant strains.

That could also be a vector for terrorism.

18. Bookslinger – wow – that was quite a tirade. If Illegal immigrants send their kids to school, those kids will be vaccinated. They are bringing diseases we are not vaccinated against? Diseases such as ? What is your data source for this tirade? And the terrorism comment – they will cough on us and give us all MDR TB? Doesn’t exactly terrorize does it?

For all of you who avoid vaccines or make up your own vaccine schedule based on your internet research or what you “heard somewhere”, I have a question. Isn’t it amazing that the scientists and public health officials whose advice you reject could become experts in immunology, virology, infectious disease, etc., having spent years studying these subjects, and yet have failed to discover the truths you have uncovered by talking to uneducated friends or reading stuff on the internet? Good thing you have done your “research” and don’t need to rely on them!

Not all vaccinations are the same. Some do an excellent job of conferring lasting protection against deadly or disabling diseases that would otherwise be widespread. Others help a bit against pathogens that for the bulk of the population will cause no lasting harm; for example, HPV vaccination or the recent recommendation for a third chicken pox shot. The insistence of treating this second class just like the first is a problematic way of confronting death and disease, as if they are trajedies that we cannot bear under any circumstances short of a senile 90-year-old dying in his sleep.

One of my children was hospitalized for whooping cough less than a week before his by-the-book, scheduled, marked-on-the-calendar appointment to be vaccinated against that disease. The day before hospitalization, my wife was worried about the labored breathing and took him to the pediatrician, but the doctor misdiagnosed. Sad and scary things can happen despite normal precautions. If we can’t deal with that but instead insist on wrapping the whole world in layer upon layer upon layer of protections, we need to work on adopting a more realistic attitude toward pain and mortality.

Howard, the preservative you mention (thimerosol) contains ethylmercury, which is not the same as methylmercury. Methylmurcury is the one that causes neurological effects in people who eat large amounts of fish, for instance. Although ethylmercury is eliminated from the body much faster than methylmercury and does not cause toxicity, it was removed from all US children’s vaccines by 2001 as a precautionary measure in response to the baseless paranoia you describe as foot-dragging. Since then, the thimerosol-autism connection has been thoroughly debunked, but public fears are unfortunately very evidence-resistant.

John Mansfield,

I suggest that you google HPV and cancer before you state things like that. HPV is the cause of all cervical cancers and many oral cancers. You might think that living LDS standards will protect you from it, but that is not the case as you can’t control what your partner does. Women should get the vaccine and men will soon be able to get it too.

#29 and 13, why do you think “the problems that occur with immunizations” from “piling a bunch on at one time” are apparent to you but not to researchers who perform trials involving thousands of subjects who are monitored over a long period of time?

Of course they “asked themselves that question”. They answer that question in part by monitoring adverse events that follow vaccination (http://vaers.hhs.gov/index). They also answer that question through common sense. You need to remember how many different antigens your immune cells encounter constantly. Your respiratory tract, digestive tract, urogenital tract are home to literally billions of microorganisms, some transient, some not. Bits and pieces of them are sampled constantly, whether because the microbes are actively invading, being transported by specialized cells, or injected into your bloodstream when you brush your teeth too hard. The notion that you could be “overwhelming” your immune system through a few vaccinations is not defensible.

I should correct a wrong statement in my comment #33.

“Two vaccines approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), Gardasil® and Cervarix®, are highly effective in preventing persistent infections with some HPV types. Gardasil prevents infection with HPV types 16 and 18, the two high-risk HPVs that cause most (70 percent) cervical cancers (4), as well as types 6 and 11, which cause most (90 percent) genital warts (5). Cervarix also prevents persistent infections with HPV types 16 and 18.”

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/HPV

John, are you looking at my computer screen? :)

John, you are not the only one who questions whether HPV vaccination is cost-effective, but you are not considering that preventing deaths is not the only benefit of the vaccine. In fact, I have my children vaccinated not because I think they are at much risk of dying of cervical CA, but more to prevent the other outcomes of having these strains of HPV. Monitoring and treating genital warts and precancerous cervical lesions (repeated pap smears, cryotherapy, excision of cervical lesions, biopsies etc) is also expensive and has non-monetary costs to patients. Most women in the US who die of cervical CA were not getting regular pap smears, but the vaccine also has real benefit to those who are not in the category of avoiding screenings.

Captain MacWhirr in Joseph Conrad’s Typhoon comes to mind:

“Running to get behind the weather! Do you understand that, Mr. Jukes? It’s the maddest thing!” ejaculated Captain MacWhirr, with pauses, gazing at the floor profoundly. “You would think an old woman had been writing this. It passes me. If that thing means anything useful, then it means that I should at once alter the course away, away to the devil somewhere, and come booming down on Fu-chau from the northward at the tail of this dirty weather that’s supposed to be knocking about in our way. From the north! Do you understand, Mr. Jukes? Three hundred extra miles to the distance, and a pretty coal bill to show. I couldn’t bring myself to do that if every word in there was gospel truth, Mr. Jukes. Don’t you expect me. . . .”

And Jukes, silent, marvelled at this display of feeling and loquacity.

“But the truth is that you don’t know if the fellow is right, anyhow. How can you tell what a gale is made of till you get it? He isn’t aboard here, is he? Very well. Here he says that the centre of them things bears eight points off the wind; but we haven’t got any wind, for all the barometer falling. Where’s his centre now?”

“We will get the wind presently,” mumbled Jukes.

“Let it come, then,” said Captain MacWhirr, with dignified indignation. “It’s only to let you see, Mr. Jukes, that you don’t find everything in books. All these rules for dodging breezes and circumventing the winds of heaven, Mr. Jukes, seem to me the maddest thing, when you come to look at it sensibly.”

He raised his eyes, saw Jukes gazing at him dubiously, and tried to illustrate his meaning.

“About as queer as your extraordinary notion of dodging the ship head to sea, for I don’t know how long, to make the Chinamen comfortable; whereas all we’ve got to do is to take them to Fu-chau, being timed to get there before noon on Friday. If the weather delays me—very well. There’s your log-book to talk straight about the weather. But suppose I went swinging off my course and came in two days late, and they asked me: ‘Where have you been all that time, Captain?’ What could I say to that? ‘Went around to dodge the bad weather,’ I would say. ‘It must’ve been dam’ bad,’ they would say. ‘Don’t know,’ I would have to say; ‘I’ve dodged clear of it.’ See that, Jukes? I have been thinking it all out this afternoon.”

annegb – Only the 2nd paragraph was written to you. I know you vaccinated your kids. The later paragraph other ones might sound harsh if you think they are written to you personally!

I’m pro-vaccine. Even when my son wouldn’t talk at age 2 and he might have been on the autistic spectrum, I was pro-vaccine. None of the information on the internet comes close to showing a case for vaccines causing autism.

My nephew is autistic and that hasn’t swayed my brother at all. Instead he has even less patience for the anti-vaccine crowd because he considers it a distraction from the possibility of finding a real cause.

No worries, JKS, I pretty much always agree with you. I’m ambivalent, but if I had to vote, I’d vote for. While cringing, because “what if?”

I still think the pharmacutical companies and health insurance companies make out like bandits on this and I still wonder if all these immunizations need to be loaded into one shot. Who does it hurt if I take my 6 month old for MMR, polio and DPT one month and wait a couple of months for the chicken pox shot?

annegb – For my forth I did try to spread them out so he’d never get more than 2 at a time. It wasn’t at all easy. All the extra appointments. It doesn’t sound like it is a lot of trouble but with a baby everything is a hassle and keeping track of which ones they got when because certain ones have to be at least a certain time spread out so deciding which ones to delay was a little stressful and difficult to remember what should be done when. I chose to try to spread it out because of one of the ingredients (not mercury) that can be really high in them but I have since forgotten the name of. I absolutely think that they group the shots because if they didn’t it would be so overwhelming people wouldn’t get them done. If I had to do it over again I would plan it out better and discuss with my doctor and commit to a specific schedule at the beginning rather than flying by the seat of my pants every well check and making a random other appointments and realize that what I did 6 months ago affected how soon I could do the next set of extra appointments and suddenly paying $30 per appointment seemed like I couldn’t afford to do it this way if it took 3 appointment because I would plan on 2 specific shots but the doctor would suggest a different two and then it would mess up even more. Miserable and it didn’t seem worth it.

I feel sorry for children whose parents space out their vaccines so they won’t get “too many” at once. For a baby, 2 shots or 4 shots is the same amount of trauma (admittedly short-lived). But 2 shots today and 2 shots next week is twice the trauma. Seriously, the recommended vaccine schedule is the one that has been tested. It is the one that offers the most protection to your children.

Seriously, the recommended vaccine schedule is the one that has been tested Tested for what? Against what? What was the outcome? It is the one that offers the most protection to your children. How do you know?

I have been in something of a debate recently on this issue. Recently two CDC researchers who claimed no connection between vaccines and autism were indicted for fraud. I have no idea where honest research might end up on this issue. However, the fact is that statistically this condition has soared in the last generation. Something is going on. I think there is probably some genetic predisposition which is then triggered by environmental factors. Massive immunizations may be one of those triggers in a substantial number of cases. Parents are instructed to carefully add new foods, one at a time because of possible reactions, yet we give massive and varied shots at the same time to babies with very immature systems. If I had a baby now, he would get all of his shots eventually (unless he reacts to something, like one of my sons did, over 40 years ago), but the schedule would be way spread out. I also find it of some interest that when the researcher that apparently did shoddy research to establish a link between autism and vaccine was shown to be shoddy, it was all over the news. When equally shoddy and dishonest research is published showing there is no link, it can’t get legs with the medical community or the press. How about a truly honest study?

I, too, am skeptical as to the pure intent of research. When the polio vaccine (actually, it was in a sugar cube when I was a little girl), I think scientists were truly looking to serve society. Same with smallpox and those first years of immunizations. And they saved lives–changed lives.

Now, however, it’s all about money. And I don’t trust the huge business this has become to care about society.

It’s a no-brainer for me to have children immunized against whooping cough, measles, mumps, polio, smallpox. I was raised in an environment of wonder at the miracle of immunizations and I would never deny that to my kids. I was religious about their immunizations. It felt like I feel whenI vote. My duty as a citizen. The very act expressed my gratitude and also honored those who had suffered before the immunizations.

I’m dismayed at all the additional vaccines, though. I do think the Herpes virus is responsible for more illnesses than we could guess.

I’m still nervous and would never assume scientists and researchers are loking to my good anymore. I assume they’re all looking to get rich.

although, it’s true that the diseases occur in third world countries where people don’t immunize.

Well, I could go back and forth arguing with myself all day.

Marjorie Conder –

You stated that two CDC researchers were indicted for fraud. You implication was that this undermined the credibility of the medical community on autism.

I’m aware of one person — a Danish fellow — who worked for the CDC on autism who was caught submitting false invoices so that he could get money for personal use.. He has been charged. But, that had nothing to do with the validity of medical research with respect to autism.

Again, this underlying “feeling” that the scientists are engaged in a some sort of conspiracy. Sigh.

Howard –

What was the purpose of that post? I assume your intent was to imply that profits or intent to profit are somehow evidence of evil purpose behind vaccination. By that same logic, one should not drive a car because auto manufacturers seek profits.

[...] with a helpful object lesson! Other people just can’t relate to Mormons. Devyn wonders why so many Mormons are anti-vaxxers (perhaps related to this?). Is knowledge good or bad? What about laughter? They’re even [...]

annegb –

I’m a parent of two boys with Aspergers syndrome. I’ve spent enormous energy understanding what the evidence does and does not show.

Unequivocally, there is not a shred of evidence — not a scintilla — that shows any link between autism and vaccines. There is a clear genetic component. Whether or not various environmental factors may be triggers is still an open question.

As to your grandson, I think I can say with a high degree of confidence that slowing down his vaccination had nothing to do with the onset of autism. It usually develops at around 18 months (most kids start speaking and then abruptly stop). A child develops the parameters quickly — they don’t keep descending over years — and there is no evidence that anything can accelerate or reverse the initial decline. Early intervention is absolutely critical to long term success (my oldest stopped speaking around 18 months and didn’t begin again until he was about 6 pm — without early therapy it might have been much later and his eventual potential might have been limited).

What is odd is the weird tendency among many mormons to actively distrust modern medicine. Our communities are hotbeds of herbal remedies, chelation therapy (sp?), magnetic therapy, vitamin therapy, chiropractic care, magic juices, magic chocolate (my favorite) and other forms of quackery. In my lifetime, I’ve seen a family take a diabetic son off insulin and treat him with herbs and magnets. He went through amputation of both legs and died within six months. I’ve seen folks with treatable cancer use chelation (sp?) therapy and juice concoctions — and die unnecessarily. In contrast to you, I know several families in my ward who don’t do vaccination (justification: It causes autism).

As I indicated earlier, this doesn’t come from the Church. It is one of our cultural quirks — and, I believe, a dangerous one.

el oso –

I believe your analysis of why parents have some of the attitudes towards vaccines is correct.

I do think home herbal remedies were superior to some of the medicine of the time a century or two ago. But, by the end of the 19th Century, that was no longer true.

Today, folks use these alternative treatments as an alternative to proven, modern medicine. And, that I am comfortable as characterizing as flawed.

No herb should be used for cancer, diabetes, Alzheimers, etc. The only true impacts seem to be as a placebo and a method for advocates to pick folks pocket (My favorite is when herbs are combined with multi-level marketing).

Taking more of any vitamin or mineral, unless there is a nutritional deficiency (a real one, not one fabricated), is not a substitute for anything.

Chiropractic treatment may make some folks feel better but there is little provable impact that a good massage would not provide. This is one case where the ability to lobby has supplemented the scientific evidence.

Again, why do some folks, particularly Mormons, want to return to things that were popular in 1811 rather than what is appropriate for 2011?

Steve, would you quit with the “many Mormons” stuff? Idon’t why, but it bugs me. The people in my community who eschew vaccines are a very small minority.

I’m sorry about your boys. My grandson is a unique and interesting person, though, and I assume the same of your children.

Howard –

What, pray tell, does that have to do with alternative medicine?

Is the implication that if one does not believe in herbs, magic juices, magnets, etc., that one is somehow not faithful?

However…, vaccinating our kids is a must do on the list. No question about it. But…, traditional medicine is also important. This is based on my principle that experience is the best teacher.

We can have it all. The modern medicine, herbs, alternative medicine, and faith in the Lord. We should have it all.

I use all avenues for treating my chronic condition.
We need to be open minded. However, it’s foolish to rely on your chiropractor or your home teacher’s vial of oil over the polio/whooping cough, etc vaccine. I don’t know anybody in real life who’s crazy enough to do that, but we’ve departed from the topic a bit.

The family that I know who declines to immunize doesn’t have much use for the priesthood, either.

What I’ve discovered is that modern medicine–ie, drs. And professionals are the hard-headed ones whose myopic point of view leaves no room for success in other ways. And like I said before “science” is a relative term. I wish I could find a medical doctor who wasn’t completely ignorant in any area outside their specialty. Don’t use “modern medicine” as an argument with me. Doctors are just as stupid as everybody else.

Back to the topic: I just watched a report on Good Morning, America about the wonders a certain menningitis vaccine has accomplished in Africa. So many childrens’ lives saved. I think that’s where modern medicine, pharmacutical companies, and a dedicated doctor have made a difference. The menningitis vaccine is $100 a shot in America. Somehow this doctor got it for 40 cents for the people in Africa.

Make no mistake, immunizations make a lot of money for somebody. But I guess that’s like everything else in “modern” society. Money is at the bottom line. If I felt that those involved at the top really cared about peoples’ health, I might be more committed.

All that aside, I’ll encourage my daughter to have my baby grandson immunized.

Howard –

You are raising a red herring. The Church thinks alternative medicine lacks merit.

The Church News in its February 19, 1977 issue noted: “The Church … deplores the patronage of health or medical practices which might be considered ethically or legally questionable. People with serious illness should consult competent physicians, licensed under laws of the land to practice medicine.”

The Church uses a network of retired physicians to advise mission presidents on medical care for all missionaries. Of note, they are giving a list of “unproven medical practices” to avoid including herbs, hypnosis, acupuncture, chiropractic treatments, homeopathy, etc. If it isn’t good enough for missionaries, why is it appropriate for missionaries?

The bottom line is that the Church thinks this stuff is quackery too.

Oops.

#76 –

“If it isn’t good enough for missionaries, why is it appropriate for non-missionaries?”

Tim 73 Priesthood blessings are to be used alongside modern medicine. and herbs D&C 89:10 all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man

Come on Steve don’t red herring me that’s a straw man argument. I didn’t raise the issue of alternative medicine you did nor do I think alternative medicine should be used for serious illness I asked you what your position is regarding priesthood blessings for the sick and you haven’t answered.

Regarding 77 for the past 27 years or so I have been using stress management, sunlight, exercise, nutrition and select herbs as a lifestyle aimed at disease prevention health and wellness should I become seriously ill I will use modern medicine with the exception that I am unlikely to accept chemotherapy for cancer unless that specific treatment greatly exceeds the average dismal rates of success.

Note that the D&C mentions all WHOLESOME herbs. How to know if a herb is wholesome? The scientific method. Test them against placebos and see what works best. Most herbs are a waste of money and serve only to make the herb manufacturer rich and the herb buyer poor (my MIL is a herb lady and spends tons of money she doesn’t have on herbs that don’t work, so I have my own reasons for disliking the pseudo-scientific alternative medicine industry).

One of the reasons alternative medicines are so big with Mormons is due to Orrin Hatch. He sponsors legislation that provides special protection to the industry, and the industry moves to Utah so that they’ll continue to get support from Hatch. Herbal remedies are less regulated (and thus more potentially dangerous) than food or drugs, as they do not need to be approved by the FDA.

Of course annegb, this doesn’t sound AT ALL like a generalization. It’s NOTHING like what you’re accusing steve of doing.

What I’ve discovered is that modern medicine–ie, drs. And professionals are the hard-headed ones whose myopic point of view leaves no room for success in other ways. And like I said before “science” is a relative term. I wish I could find a medical doctor who wasn’t completely ignorant in any area outside their specialty. Don’t use “modern medicine” as an argument with me. Doctors are just as stupid as everybody else.
Don’t call him out when you’re doing the exact same thing.

Except you, of course, oh, enlightened one.

First thing you’ve said in this thread that isn’t just “I heard” or “someone said” or whatever else you just pull out of your ass.

56. annegb – I assume that you don’t know too many pharmaceutical researchers. I happen to work with hundreds of them at a Pharmaceutical company. I can tell you that every one that I know is dedicated to helping improve people’s lives. It is not about money to them – it is about saving people’s lives. Do they make millions for developing new vaccines? No, they don’t. The CEOs of these companies to make a lot of money but that is like every large company. As someone said above, every company is in business to make money. Pharmaceutical companies are no different. Could they become non-profits? Sure, but who is going to pay the billions of dollars a year to support the R&D necessary to develop new drugs?

67. Bookslinger – ok I understand your perspective. I don’t agree with it, but I get where you are coming from.

Steve 83 “The AMA …” & “Chiropractic care exists because of lawsuits…and legislative lobbying.”
Do you realize how much the AMA is involved in lawsuits and legislative lobbying? I have attended conferences where the participants were 50/50 doctors and scientists. The executive sessions were all about lobbying. “Call Senator X about one issue, call representative Y about another issue.”
The government, insurance companies, and most large corporations funnel countless billions in extra patient billing to doctors that is either unnecessary or overreaction. Doctors have very effectively lobbied to get this situation. Many people need to have a primary care physician to initiate any treatment following proper insurance procedures. What if it was a primary care nurse or physician’s assistant instead?

el oso —

Given the health care debate, it is unsurprising that the medical profession is trying to have a voice.

What is unique about chiropractic care is that its ability to trick folks into treatment is because of legislative/legal action, not evidence of viability or efficacy.

Devyn S. why am i in moderation?

92 – Howard, I fixed the moderation issue

93 – Peter – “At what point does a public welfare company staffed with nothing but altruists turn into a profit-maximizing machine like all the rest?” Easy answer – once it becomes publicly traded. Then you have your core scientists, but they are NOT running the company

87. Howard – I should be added to those who revere science. You are right that a drug does not work for all patients. There is tremendous amounts of money being spent to understand how we can only treat those patients who respond. This will be key. However, the drug producers know what percent responds because they have done the clinical trials. The herbal companies have no idea as they have not done the clinical trials.

Devyn S. yes I agree money is being spent to solve the responder issue it is a big problem because it forces Drs. to use a trial-and-error approach adding cost and inconvenience of multiple office visits this is passed along to third party payers and their markups are added on top. Then you have the question of treatment vs. cure profit motive strongly favors treatment what has been cured since polio? I suppose a few obscure diseases but I am not aware of a big one are you? Heart disease has improved with lifestyle changes stantins provide good cholesterol numbers making us all feel better but my neighbor Doc says she must put 20 patients on them to eventually save a life and they are not without risk. To my knowledge chemotherapy for cancer continues with mostly dismal success rates and terrible side effects. Type 2 diabetics for many people is better treated with exercise and nutrition than insulin. The fact is pharmaceuticals are time consuming expensive and dangerous. I don’t support MLM herbs the markup on health store herbs is small in comparison to pharmaceuticals so clinical trials are not easily afforded but they don’t pose the risk take a look at the LD50 of herbs the safety is quite apparent. Finally there is an issue of pharmaceutical quality control vs. profit motive as this segment of 60 Minutes explores
Bad Medicine

Devyn, re: My first sentence…. There should be a universally agreed upon sarcasm font.

Ron – good to hear on the sarcasm piece as I was a bit surprised by the statement… I agree with Steve – you overpaid by $100…

Steve – Sadly I must agree with you – MLM is embarrassing… I live in the East but am embarrassed to say I am from Utah if the retort is about MLM…

Devyn –

I love chocolate, particularly Swiss or German.

What I’m referring to is a relatively new MLM that pushes the worst chocolate I’ve ever run into. It is $1600 for a shipment and supposedly is better than the Fountain of Youth. Xocai is the name.

Obviously, another scam like MonaVie, Noni, Xango, etc.

Unless miracle seaweed is a dietary supplement which it probably is. The earliest dietary supplements marketed as such in the United States were cod liver oil products promoted in the 1920s for their vitamin A and D content. FDA soon discovered some were providing less of the promised vitamins than the label stated and began a series of seizure actions in the courts that lasted a full decade. On February 26, 1987, approximately 25 armed FDA agents and U.S. Marshals burst through the glass doors of the Ft. Lauderdale offices of the Life Extension Foundation LEF.org with guns drawn. A second group of FDA agents simultaneously attacked the LEF warehouse, where they detained LEF founder William Faloon at gunpoint. Employees were lined up against the wall and searched. Over the next 12 hours, they seized thousands of items. In 1990 a pet food store, Highlands Laboratory and The Century Clinic were raided. In 1991 NutriCology and an anti-cancer clinic were raided. In 1992 Nature’s Way The Tahoma Clinic and The Texas Vitamin Store were raided. In 1993 40 Texas health food stores and The Church of Scientology were raided. Finally in 1994 congress rained in the FDA by generally removing the regulation of all dietary supplements and placing the burden of proof on the US in the event that they want to otherwise regulate a specific supplement.

Howard,

Drug companies have the burden of proof. Why should dietary supplements not have the burden of proof? Aren’t they making essentially the same claim as drug companies–their product will help people be healthier? I realize there are some differences between the two, but it seems unfair that the makers of dietary supplements get a free pass while drug makers have to prove the safety of the drug before it goes on market. I think both should have the burden of proof.

Tim – I agree with you!

Why should dietary supplements not have the burden of proof? Well the differences are significant dietary supplements do not pose anything close to the danger of pharmaceuticals but the FDA abused enforcement probably for political reasons can you imagine 25 armed FDA agents raiding a pharmaceutical company? so Congress relieved the FDA of regulating them and apparently wanted it to stay that way.

I have worked for a dietary supplement company, where part of my job was lobbying congress concerning legislation that would regulate the industry. I worked on litigation involving the FTC pursuing claims against dietary supplement and nutriceutical companies for claims made in advertising (The FTC regulates such claims, not the FDA). If anyone is interested, I will give you a summary of my experiences in this area, but suffice it to say that: 1. Hatch is NOT widely regarded as a savior by most companies in this industry; 2. The policy decisions and government regulation relating to this industry involves very complex issues, most of which concern the definitions of terms like “drug,” “supplement,” “food,” and how you go about proving health-related claims.

Some advertising claims are clearly over the top, but how the FTC chooses which companies to go after is entirely a crapshoot and the process used by the FTC with respect to the companies they target is far from fair. Again, these are not easy issues.

MCQ Health and wellness is a personal interest goal and long time lifestyle for me. My knowledge comes from research and knowing a few people involved in healthcare and drug studies.

John Huntsman, I assume that’s not your actual name,

The problem is that when you talk about “dietary supplements” no one knows what you are talking about. This is another lesson in defining your terms. There is no consensus about what is included in that definition. There are thousands of products, from vitamins and minerals to food products and plant parts to juices to shark cartlage and rhino horn. Some have undergone extensive testing, like vitamin C. Some have not. It’s impossible to talk about them as a group. You have to talk about them individually.

Your second paragraph in response to 113 is completely baseless generalization. Supplements are taken by sick and healthy people. As are substances you characterize as “medications.”

As for whether the industry is “sleazy” I think it’s fair to say that in general terms there are a lot of unethical sellers out there with a lot of products that are either ineffective or possibly even unsafe. That doesn’t mean that all “supplements” are in that category. Again, vitamin C is a supplement, as is calcium.

Lots of people think they are experts, and just because you can be qualified as a n “expert” in a court of law doesn’t mean you actually know anything. The standard is pretty low and any side can buy an “expert” to testify about anything they want.

The fact that he’s a professor and not actually in the industry shows he knows things only from the academic side. When you’re actually in business, you realize pretty quickly that a guy like Hatch is both a blessing and a curse.

Hatch was one of the original sponsors of the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) which freed the supplement industry from some of the more onerous burdens of the FDA, but also imposed difficulties of its own. Since the passage of that law, Hatch has virtually held the industry hostage, insisting that all new legislation on the industry go through him and claiming that if he didn’t get substantial donations from the industry each campaign cycle, Congress would dismantle DSHEA and begin to regulate all supplements as drugs. This amounts to little more than extortion. Nice savior. I’m sure they totally realize what a great guy he is.

If Hatch is their only friend in congress, doesn’t that say something about the nutriceutical industry? If you only have one friend in congress, that friend is your salvation, no matter how bad of a friend they may be. The fact that their one friend isn’t a great friend is also indicative of something about the industry.

arJ, he’s not their only friend, and he’s not a real friend at all. Come on, seriously? Rob Bishop has been a great friend to the industry, and he doesn’t blackmail them like Hatch does. Ron Paul has been a fantastic friend to the industry, and he doesn’t kowtow to Hatch. There are emany others that have been helpful, but when you have a guy in the Senate with as much seniority as Hatch has who won’t let any legislation through unless it starts with him, that’s a tough position to be in.

MCQ,

You’re proving my point for me. If those even industries have friends in Washington and the MLM Juice industry does not, what does that say?

You nailed it, Mansfield.

MCQ – I have issues with Pharma being put in the same bucket as oil and tobacco. Pharma saves lives period – Tobacco kills. Oil, well it depends on your perspective…

Devyn, sorry but drugs kill people too. Saying big pharma “saves lives period” is just not true. there is a lot of error that comes out of big pharma and in the end, it’s just a big business. It’s not a charity. It’s in business to make as much money as possible.

arJ, congress doesn’t “buy into” your rationale. Congress responds to two things: money and power. the supplement industry has comparitively little of both, compared with other industries like big pharma.

132. MCQ – yes, people do die from drugs, however, they save a lot more lives and improve qualty of life for millions of people. Can you really say the same for Tobacco? This is jst a silly discussion to compare the two. Yes, both are out to make money, but the underlying rationale is vastly different

133. John Mansfield – Really? Yes decades of pleasure for 5 years of painful, excruciating death from something like lung cancer, COPD, or emphysema… And then they do need drugs… I would argue that vaccines can claim that and more – how many thousands of lives have been saved from just the polio vaccine alone? Again, this is just one of the silliest arguments ever. George Washington? He lived in a time when they did not even know the basics of human biology and the average lifespan was something like 30…

Good we at least agree on something…

(Been gone for awhile but starting to come back.)

I propose that ward directories have a way to designate those who haven’t been vaccinated for personal choice. This way I can make sure their children or my children are separated in different classes…

Queuno – welcome back. Hope all is ok. I wonder what percent of Mormons don’t vaccinate? I would presume it is low single digits.

I doubt anyone will see this, but I thought it pertinent to our discussion: a recent article on Hatch and supplements:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/us/politics/21hatch.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

“‘Senator Hatch — he’s our natural ally,’ said Marc S. Ullman, a lawyer for several supplement companies.”

And so on and so forth.

I am An active Mormon. I am a mom of 5 children. I served a mission 25 yrs ago. My husband and I carry a genetic mutation called MTHFR. 40_60% of the population does, but in our case I carry C667T and my husband carries A1298C varriations of MTHFR. This combination causes blood clots easily and death either by heart attack, stroke or dvt. 10 of my 15 pregancies ended in miscarriage. I value my living children like no other mom could. If you reaearch autism under MTHFR in the scientic journals where real scientic hard line data is stored, the kind of articles that are hard for lay people to read, there is evidence of genentic predisposition like MTHFR and Alo E where their gene mutations cannot get rid of toxins such as mercury. 98% of autistic children have been tested positive for these genetic mutations. Google Dr. A. Buttar, who specializes in metal toxicology and has cured autism in young children by removing toxins such as mercury. Those with MTHFR have take three methylated b vitamins , methylated b12, methylated b6(p5p) and methylated folic acid to help their bodies get rid of toxins and to have the necessary neurotransmitters to think clearly and to feel happy and a sense of well being. To mandate all people to vacinnate in the past is understandable, but with new research in mapping human genes and now their new understanding in gene mutations, there should not be a manditory vacinnation stand. Vacinnations to those with gene mutations become injured, plain and simple. There is hard evidence. The FDA had a cover up as well as the CDC. Recently, both agencies have admitted that those individuals with certain genetic mutations are suscepticle to injury from vacinnations. It really isnt the vacinnation, it is the persons genen mutation that causes the injury. Still, the public needs to be informed of the genen mutations that are suspect.