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| Tuesday, May 21, 2013 |
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I’m sorry, this may be a serious post but it cracked me up-especially the reporting to the Nursery leader. Hee-hee, awesome! To answer your question, as a Mormon female I’ve never felt uncomfortable leading men. |
I don’t think that it has to do with discomfort about leading men. I think it has to do with the cultural view among certain factions of the church that it’s unseemly for men and women to interact (even in totally non-sexual ways) if they’re not married. So many people treat it like a conversation is the first step on a slippery slope to adultery. When I was the nursery leader, I had no assistants. The only people available to help out were the fathers of some of the nursery kids. They were fine with it, I was fine with it, the spouses of the men were fine with it, the primary president was fine with it, but some people still took issue with it. |
My only comment is that now you know what it feels like to be a female in a male dominated church. Men speak to my husband, not me. Men feel uncomfortable talking to me personally. More men should serve in the Primary — their perspective might change. |
I also doubt that it is discomfort with leading men that causes the awkwardness. I think Keri’s point is probably part of it. It may also be that since you are the “assistant” when they were looking for the “leader”, they just…didn’t know what to say. They will have to find the “leader” to get a report on how things are going. It would be sort of weird to skip over your leader to talk to you directly. Because if you have anything to say you should really bring it up with your leader, not your leader’s leader. And yes, this happens to women in the church all the time. |
Yeah–it’s not that your masculinity or your priesthood threatens them. It is that they are used to communicating to you through your spouse and/or “boss” in your calling. Unfortunately, my “boss” in my calling is the Sunday School President, and he gives me the same vibe–that he is just not comfortable talking to me. I am quite certain that would not be the case if I were a man. |
1. Whitney Minger – I don’t think it was entirely serious… 2. Keri Brooks – Fair point, I was going to note that in the post that there may be a fear that we may commit some sin if they speak to me given Primary is such a Romantic setting… So you were in the Nursery with men you weren’t married to? How scandalous – and you were able to control yourself? 3. Andrea R. – agreed – I think you hit that one right on. 4. E – Fair points, although in this case I am married to the Nursery Leader… 5. ESO – yes the male-female dynamics are just weird in the Church sometimes… |
I’m with Andrea. |
I rarely saw such issues when serving in the nursery (somewhere, there was a fine print clause in the GHI, stating that every time the then-Mrs. Literski got pregnant, she and her then-husband were required to be called to the nursery, despite the fact that her then-husband basically despised other people’s untrained little house apes). On the other hand, when I was called upon to teach the 11 year old boys, I experienced a primary president who seemed to revel at having her one chance in life to order a man around in a church setting. I was quite happy to be released from that calling. |
After 15 years in YM I have recently been called to teach the 11-12 year old boys in Primary along with a member of our stake High Council as my sidekick. I don’t sense any awkwardness when the female primary leaders tell us what to do. We simply listen and try to do our best. What kind of wards do y’all live in where males and females are awkward talking and working with each other? I don’t see that around here and never have. How does one function in such an environment? |
I live in the most northern part of Utah that you can be in, and I am primary president in my ward. I also work at a university nearby. I associate with men everyday and even am alone with them quite often. I know–shocking!!! One of my counselors won’t talk with the male teachers in our primary unless she has someone with her. Drives me nuts. I hate how our church assumes that if any man or woman are alone together something is going to happen, or is happening. Are we not adults who can control ourselves? I also hate that per the handbook it is okay for a woman teacher to be alone but not a man teacher. If I were male, I would take great offense at that. I love the male teachers in our primary. I wish we had more. |
Where I am at, men are seldom called into Primary because of the (local?) rule that there must always be two teachers present if one is a male. Can’t be helped in the Young Men’s organization, however, and it just sucks the male membership out of other positions. (There must be a 3-man adult presidency, and two instructors each for Deacons, Teachers, and Priests. That is twelve leaders for eleven aaronic priesthood holders, plus the Bishop) On the other hand, a decade or so ago, I knew a just-released Bishop called (alone) to teach 5-to-6-year-olds, who frequently reminded the (female) Primary Presidency that he was there to take direction from them, and expected to rely on their inspiration to help him in his calling, and please don’t ask him how to run the rest of the Primary. |
@2, I live in a geographically large stake w/o the blessing or, perhaps, burden of a corresponding large number of members. I recently tried to pawn my kids off on another parent for a stake youth fireside about 45 minutes each way from our house. I called the YWP who told me she was going w/ her daughter and another YW, but she was following the bishop who was taking his daughter. They didn’t think it was appropriate ti ride together even with 3 other teenagers in the car so they were following each other’s mini-vans to the fireside. (total seating capacity of 14 for a total of 5 precious souls.) I thought their approach was beyond stupid and silly. At any rate, I have an 8 pax SUV and volunteered to drive everyone in a single vehicle. Instead of pawninng off my own kids I ended up chaperoning the Bishop and YWP on their “date” to the youth fireside. I’m glad I was able to save the YWP from our Bishop. |
When I was SS president, I got to assist the female teachers frequently in their class. I do not think I even imagined this issue coming up, we were with teenagers or adults in the class most of the time. In nursery it is different, but we now have the former YW president as nursery leader. She tells her hubby what to do all the time, even though he used to be in the Bishopric. |
One more vote for what Keri said. |
8. Nick Literski – interesting experiences as always – you must have been in quite a ward… 9. bbell – My ward certainly has that feel. I think part of it is the women who are running the Primary are all quite young which probably explains a lot of it. 10. tracy - 11. Matthew Chapman – yes, YM and EQ do “suck” up a lot of men… 12. Rbc – ok now that is just silly. My ward is not that bad… 13. el oso – I don’t mind being told what to do by a Primary Leader |
Don’t most men serve in primary some time or other? I’m on my second trip through primary right now. As for communication in the original post I agree there’s some discomfort about getting too familiar with an other’s spouse. Although honestly I think it’s more that a lot of people of both sexes get out of habit being social once they are married. They’re so busy with kids and primarily socialize with their spouse that once it comes to engaging with people they don’t know it’s difficult. Even if they were extremely social while single. Heck, I’ve noticed this happening with me. And when I recognize it I attempt to break. But especially when you are exhausted after being up with kids it’s amazingly difficult to be social at Church. I’ve become “that guy” I swore I’d never be when I got married. |
Clark–I am in the same predicament from the opposite spectrum. As a single (and high school before that) I found my greatest friendships in males. Now that I’m married I find myself shoved into the box that is Relief Society social hours barely knowing any other man besides my husband to talk to. It gets lonely when you realize intellectually engaging conversations are a thing of the past since most women my age (20s) only want to talk about babies. |
Newly Housewife, intellectual women also love to talk about their new babies. And having gone to an all girls private school during high school and currently being in a master’s degree program, I can assure you that gender has nothing to do with intellectually engaging conversation. |
I think the discomfort is a direct result of the patriarchal nature of church. If a woman has not had secular leadership experience, her primary presidency calling will be the only time she ever leads a man. And few men are usually serving in primary, because they are tied up in priesthood callings and because of that rule about being alone with kids, so even then, she will not lead many men. But I do not see the woman’s inexperience as the only factor leading to discomfort. Male inexperience with female leadership leads to an attitude among many men that makes them hard to lead. It sounds like you are not one of these men with an attitude, Devyn S., but your primary leader may have encountered many such men (I know I have) and now she is unnecessarily using the coping tactics she learned to deal with these institutionally trained chauvinists on your more enlightened self. Such coping tactics include not bothering the men, not directly confronting the men, trying not to be pushy, making sure you you don’t appear to take pleasure in being in charge, etc. |
April, I am giggling at your list of coping tactics. Indeed. I would also throw in: try to make him think he came up with whatever idea you want him to implement because if you thought of it, it is highly suspect, but if he thought of it, it is clearly inspired and right. |
16. Clark – Well that is an interesting point of view… 19. April – That is an interesting perspective and I tend to agree with it. You are right I don’t mind reporting to a woman – my last three bosses have been women. 20. ESO – I think it is too bad that we have to cope when dealing with Men – it is pretty pathetic that a woman would have to do that. |
Sometimes we have to remember that there are just some plain odd/awkward people in the world and likely a few(?) in every ward in the church. |
Kim – well said – speaking as one of those “odd” people :) |
For what it’s worth, I had what seemed to me to be similar experiences when I was in nursery. Then again, I often give off a vibe that I’m not too friendly–misanthropic even–so usually when people treat me weird I chalk it up to that. |
