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| Friday, May 24, 2013 |
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No, the Catholics won’t face the backlash like the LDS Church did. For the most part post-prop 8 stuff wasn’t aimed at Mormons; it was aimed at making the rest of California and the nation think that Prop 8 failed only because a whole state had been fooled by a bunch of Mormons. “How silly of you Californias to let that little weirdo sect trick you like that. You’re not going to fall for that again, right?” Catholics have a different place in American life since there are vastly more of them, so what they will be served up will be pretty different. |
Catholics will get criticism for this, but it won’t be anything like what the Mormons got. First, because huge numbers of people in Illinois and Michigan are Catholic (32% for Illinois, 39% for New York). When a religion that makes up a huge percentage of the population of a state spends large amounts of money in a state to influence the state’s policy, it’s viewed (rightly or wrongly) as more legitimate than when a religion that’s a tiny minority in the state does so. Second, because as John Mansfield, says, Catholics have a different place in American life since there are vastly more of them. For many people, one of the only things they knew about (modern) Mormons was that they promoted Prop 8. But most people know lots of Catholics and know lots of things about Catholics, so whatever they think about the Church’s activities here, they think of it alongside all of the other things they know, good and bad, and it tempers the reaction. |
yeesh…gotta love the Catholic argument against same sex marriage:
Is that really the best argument you’ve got? |
Dan I don’t think that is the crux of the Catholic argument. Its more based on Catholic theology about natural law. One thing the Catholics really screwed up on was accepting public funding for social services. They lost the ability to control their own destiny when they started to rely on public funding. |
Another interesting point about all of this is that recently in Iowa and Maine anti-SSM people won public votes over this issue with limited LDS involvement. In addition in Florida in 2008 the public voted 62% to 38% to add a ban in the Florida const. on SSM. No public backlash against anybody |
Earlier this year, SSM failed in the Maryland legislature. Pro-SSM lobbyists thought they had the votes all arranged in the house of delegates and that the state senate was the bigger obstacle, so they got the bill originated in the senate. It passed in the senate, but then house delegates realized that their support was no longer hypothetical, but would change state law, and a number of the delegates backed out. Seeing that they couldn’t pass the bill in the house, after it came out of committee, house leadership chose not to bring it to a vote. This is a legislature where the house is 69% Democrat, and the senate is 74% Democrat. |
I think Anna is right, the situation isn’t the same as Prop 8 because the Catholic Church won’t be looked at as outsiders trying to influence a state law from outside the state. As for the laws, Catholics should keep their programs going using their own funds or submit to the rules. That seems pretty simple. |
I’m surprised that no one has brought up LDS family services policy of only adopting to married people. With the amount of children in foster care today, It shouldn’t matter and that’s just as discriminating as being anti gay And BTW, I’m tired of this Mormon vrs. Catholic argument/ discussion. Mormons/ Mormon church needs open up and be truthful about its own history including the Prop 8. |
I wonder how much fact there is to the notion about homosexual pairs giving homes to thousands of handicapped, minority, seven-year-old orphans. My guess is not much. |
No idea. But that’s missing the point , isn’t it? |
#8: Diane, while I’m sure some may consider that policy “discriminatory,” it’s also an entirely permissible policy, enacted and carried out by an organization which is not using taxpayer funding to support their services. The issue with Catholic Charities refusing to place children with gay parents is only an issue because they rely on taxpayer funding. If you’re going to use taxpayer funds, you have to be subject to civil anti-discrimination laws. If you insist on violating those laws, you can’t continue to receive taxpayer funding in order to do so. The LDS church has simply been wise enough not to rely on government funding to do their work, and they can spend their own funds as they choose to. |
As for different reactions toward Catholic vs. LDS anti-gay political activism, I think we have to acknowledge that the two groups have very different cultures. At least in the United States, society at large is well aware that many (if not most) Catholics actually disagree with their leadership on a wide range of issues. In fact, recent surveys attempting to measure support for marriage equality have shown very high level of support among those who identify themselves as Catholic, notwithstanding the vocal activism of some of their leaders. LDS, on the other hand, are at the very least perceived as having a much more monolithic culture. While insiders can point to a range of opinions, “society at large” is generally under the impression that LDS dissent from their leadership is quite rare. In other words, Catholic activism is more likely to be viewed as idiosyncratic leadership, while LDS activism is more likely to be seen as “full participation.” |
Diane – LDS social services caters to LDS unwed mothers. The idea is that they pre-screen the families to be LDS married families and then the birth mother chooses who to place her baby with. |
Regardless of who is opposing SSM when or where, it will eventually be legal in all 50 states, because it is civil marriage, and our Constitution requires equal protection under the law. Religions will continue to marry whom they choose and remain free to believe and practice what they choose, as they do now. |
Latter day Guy |
” It what our ideology encourages.” So, other than the fact that Catholic Social Services receive tax payer support, your saying that its’ okay for LDS social services to practice according to their faith, but, Catholics are demons for following and pushing their own ideology. HM |
ExMoHoMoDon, Were you perhaps referring to John Mansfield who posted before me? I am personally in favor of gay marriage and adoption. The little link in my comment was to suggest that even if gay people are not adopting huge numbers of handicapped/special-needs/etc. kids, getting even one child into a loving supportive environment––with gay parents or straight ones––is a step in the right direction, as your comment demonstrates. |
Sorry, and yes. |
Diane, the Catholic Church has a hell of a lot more secrets than we do. Why aren’t you asking them to open up? Geez, it’s starting to be that every time I see your name, I can just skip that post because I know it will be some variation of “I hate the Mormon Church.” |
@ Anne The Catholic church has done a lot to open up their history. The point being, at least they don’t out right lie about it like Mormons do So, skip away |
Anne, I wish I could sit during a Sacrament meeting and not have some Mormon come up with how disciple the Catholic church is, then maybe I wouldn’t feel the way I do. And, as far as Catholic History goes, there are a lot of books out there good/bad , but, what you don’t find is people like you who would automatically disqualify it if it wasn’t correlated by the church and label it anti. |
Anne, There is a typo instead of disciple, should have read despicable. And let’s just forget about sacrament meeting, anything written by a Mormon with regard to Catholics is usually always derogatory. Especially, when few of you have, if ever, step inside a catholic church and experience the beauty of it. |
That’s funny. A priest friend of mine said to me the other day, “You know, for people who talk so much about ‘sacred mysteries,’ we [Catholics] don’t have anything like you Mormons.” |
Diane, My experience is that the Catholic church is one of the last churches Mormons would call despicable, first editions of so-called “Mormon Doctrine” notwithstanding. |
Am I missing something? If Diane likes the Catholic church so much, why is she sitting in Mormon Sacrament meetings? I’m sure Heavenly Father will be happy to accommodate her spiritual desires in whatever corner of Paradise she chooses to occupy. I encourage my Catholic friends to practice all facets of their religion, just as I expect the same courtesy regarding my spiritual choices. I hope the Catholics and whoever else wants to join a political movement about anything, only the very best. It is hard work. |
I suppose it could be part of your experience, Diane, but I haven’t heard anybody knock the Catholic Church in a long, long time. Especially not in sacrament meeting. Maybe you’re hearing what you want to hear because you’re looking so hard for something to criticize. You know, I’m not without sympathy for your resentment. I’ve had some experiences that I’m having a hard time getting over. The church isn’t perfect. But it’s true. So I overlook the assholes. |
No they won’t face the criticism as they make up too much of the population. Personally, I hope soon gay marriage is legal in most states so we can all move past this… |
anything written by a Mormon with regard to Catholics is usually always derogatory. Especially, when few of you have, if ever, step inside a catholic church and experience the beauty of it. While not denying that mormons sometimes have moronic things to say about other denominations, let me assure you that intimate familiarity with the interiors of their churches has not stopped many catholics from becoming disaffected. |
Like Devyn S. I would like to get past this, but with a different outcome. And so it is that we aren’t past this. |
25) I was a convert to Mormonism over twenty five years ago. I have with in the past year had my name is removed. One thing in Catholic circles, we don’t do this, We don’t have discussions( OP) about other people’s faith and discuss what they do wrong. Catholics don’t care who is a member by birthright, as opposed to who is the newest convert. I was told by Anne this is a rant. In my Opinion, this whole article is a rant against Catholic social services. You are right we should be free to practice how to practice our religion according to our tenants, but, my point was so should Catholics. Whenever Mormons have a mirror put in front of them, they don’t like it, but, they feel free to attack and discuss other people’s faiths as if they are all authorities and I’m quite tired of it. We are not being intellectuals here and discussing an important topic, we are being bigots and saying how much better our way of doing things really is compared to someone else way of doing something |
Glad we agree John :) well at least on the need to move past this very divisive issue |
Nick makes an excellent point about how society perceives (accurately) that Catholics often disagree with their leaders on issues like this, whereas it perceives (to what extent it’s accurate, I don’t know) that Mormons are generally in agreement with their leaders on issues like this. |
I am not sure why Diane thinks there is any Catholic Bashing going on in the opening post. I am happy as a committed mainstream Mormon that somebody besides the LDS church is in the fight with us on these types of issues. I am fond of practicing Catholics as a general rule. |
BBell – I’m with you. I am fond of my friends who are Catholic, too. My friends are mainly the old school Roman Catholic, so they toe all the rules – no birth control, etc. I do count a Priest, a Monk and two Nuns in that mix, if that helps my street cred. I personally think being a practicing Roman Catholic is much harder than being a Mormon. I am glad my version of God let me stop after 3 kids. |
330 34) You two really need to get out of your bubble, you have absolutely no clue blessings to the both of you |
Diane, give us a quote from this thread that is critical of Catholics and/or their religion |
Let’s see the last line in the OP Let’s keep the focus on the Catholics and the possible back lash and Prop 8 discussions bore me. Are you kidding me? I don’t know if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its’ a duck. This is truly disrespectful. This is a Mormon site and we are discussing how another religion handles something political, and we are saying its’ wrong.(don’t get me wrong here, I support same sex marriage,as well as adoption) but, this is ridiculous on so many levels, particularly since I know of no Mormons who truly understand Catholicism at its’ basic core. We like to tell others what to believe, and how their previous faith really preaches in order to convert them and that all. And let’s see this comment here, ” My version of God lets me stop at three.” Shows me that there’s no clear understanding of the Catholic faith, because Catholicism does allow for women to have as many, or as little children they deem fit to have. In addition, the comment my version of God, why is your Version so much better. Pure lunacy |
Diane, I think your pretty off base here in your criticisms. As a typical manistream Mormon I am happy that the Catholics are standing up for marriage. |
To be honest this is not even a Catholic issue or Mormon issue. I am a product of Catholic charities Foster Care System in New York. In 1972 a month before my eighth birthday, I, along with my two older brothers and sister were taken away from our parents for Neglect and Abuse. What this issue is about at its’ very core is what I call institutional abuse and neglect. I didn’t know where my brothers were for almost two months, and I didn’t hear from my sister again until I was 16, The Foster system is broken. Agencies,whether they are run by State, or Religious organization need to do a better job in SCREENING foster parents. Period. This is what and where the argument/discussion needs to be. Not on whether or not Catholic agencies, discriminate against SSM, because even State Run foster care agencies discriminate against SSM, so that’s really nothing new. And personally, I wouldn’t care if foster parent’s were SSM, What I would care about is whether or not they were falling down drunks, Which my foster father was until his last breath. I would have been better off staying right where I was |
In addition, Catholics as a whole , just as the rest of population, really don’t care about foster care issues, no one does unless they know someone directly involved. |
Believe it or not, Diane, I agree with you on the foster care point. I too am a product of foster care so I know what you speak of. But outside of you and I no one else thinks of same sex marriage in terms of foster care and adoption rights. Sad but true. |
I will leave it all up to you to decide which religion is right, as I reject all religion as man made nonsense. I find it fascinating that the one thing that seems to unite most religions is demonizing homosexuals and making them unequal under the law. Thankfully, the Constitution requires equal protection under the law, and in spite of all of yours and the Catholics’ efforts, homosexual Americans will sooner or later have equal protection under the law in civil marriage, leaving you all to find another cause which unites you. In the meantime, I myself am adopted, I have 3 kids, one of whom is adopted, and you’ll forgive me if I take it personally when you spend massive energy and money to make my family unequal. |
One thing in Catholic circles, we don’t do this, We don’t have discussions (OP) about other people’s faith and discuss what they do wrong. Nonsense, of course they do. Take, for example, this newsletter [ http://www.pfarre-am-schuettel.at/PDFs/PfBl200105.pdf ] from a local (to me) parish with an article on page 10 entitled “Cult or Denomination: The Mormons.” The author had taken a tour of the local ward building (“which looks like your average youth center”) and leads into her commentary with a description of “a pungent odor…that would accompany me for the duration of my tour.” The author goes on to note the lack of artwork, speculates that this must be due to a prohibition of images, but mostly it’s the absence of crosses that is striking. In the end, “too many of the aforementioned differences will stand in the way of christian unity for a long time to come.” |
Diane. Get some counseling. |
44) Comments like get some counseling are just mean spirited and have nothing to do with the conversation. Might I add that you get some counseling. You seem to need to interject your personal feeling on something you know nothing about and it makes you look ridiculous. All you did was just cyber bully. You don’t know me at all so, I might suggest you just shut up at this point. As it is Ex mo is right on one thing, religion not only likes to, but seeks to demonize people who don’t fit the normal parameters of said morals. That way they look at themselves and say how great they are. Looking from the inside out is a good thing. I can testify with 100% veracity that while the agency name may say Catholic, I may have only seen one priest from that organization and that’s only because I needed an emergency operation on my thumb and they needed to get permission from someone at the top. Its’ really not run with any proscribe set of rules from Catholicism at all because its’ state run. They have to run the agency according to state law because its’ state law that governs foster care and adoption agencies of the state |
There is some serious misunderstanding of how LDS Social Services works on display here in this thread. Not only does LDSSS not accept government money, but they allow anybody to apply to adopt. Think it through and you’ll figure out how this works. |
A random John I believe it is you who are mis informed, I have gone on their web site, If you are single they will not allow you to adopt. Citing family values and that a two parent traditional family is best |
diane, Nothing here has been disrespectful, other than your comments and accusations. You could possibly characterize some of the comments and themes as insular, but you’re finding insult where none is intended. Ok, perhaps annegb’s comment was intended to be insulting, but you seem to be working out your own issues and casting blame in public without provocation. It is pretty hard to fault her when you show up, basically scream at everyone here because of your own issues, and then take offense when this is pointed out. If this pattern of behavior is therapeutic for you then I am concerned about the future of your participation here. |
diane, According to the website you are correct, so I can’t fault you for that. That said, in states such as New York where this is a potential issue my understanding is that the application requirements are dropped. |
a Random JOHn Here is a list of the Requirements for Adoption thru LDS family Service: This is on their web site. Look it up for yourself. Members of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, be current temple recommend holders and sealed in the temple ABLE TO CLEAR CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK. I find it odd that this requirement is listed last, but, that’s just me. They also go on to provide a link that shows why they are justified in only adopting to traditional families. The one thing Catholic social services does do right, they do not make it a requirement that one is Catholic, they don’t care what faith one is. At this point, I believe they even allow for single parents to adopt, The one thing the have in Common with the Mormons is they won’t allow Gay Men and Women to adopt. This is ridiculous considering how many children are languishing in the system right now with out any support. |
No they are not dropped, they are not changed. It is what it is. Now, on the part of Catholic Social services, Religiosity has no impact the way it does for Mormon LDS adoption agencies. That’s not even the issue here. The real issue is not which faith handles it smarter, the real issue at the core is adoption laws period. For all intensive purposes, Foster Care agencies and Adoption agencies receive federal monies, but, each state has its’ set of laws to deal with who gets to adopt and who doesn’t. The name on the door of the agency doesn’t come into play at all because every agency has to deal with the regulations on the Federal/ State levels. |
Actually, Catholic Charities does seem to care what faith is practiced by potential parents. I was personally familiar with a situation where a nominally LDS family was in crisis (mother was literally prostituting herself for drugs, for starters). The state stepped in to take the kids, and assigned them to be processed through Catholic Charities. Another couple in the ward had extensive experience as foster parents, and ample room/finances/etc. to take the kids in, but Catholic Charities refused to place the kids with that couple, specifically because they were LDS. |
Wasn’t this post originally about something else? |
Diane, you. are. out. to. lunch. Where in the title post did you read about foster care? Guys, I think we’re being punked. Diane, if you feel insulted, I’ve done my job. |
Looks like the Catholics couldn’t deliver. I guess that means the Mormon Church is true after all. Only the Mormons could save America and the world from the Godless homosexuals. |
