Adults discuss it all the time in singles’ wards–it’s something like a quarterly event, or it was in my 12 years of singles’ wards. (Sometimes even more frequent, depending on how the lesson manual’s chastity lesson matched up with the 5th Sunday combined RS/EQ meeting, which was ALWAYS about chastity.) It was all I could do sometimes, when going through a dating dry spell, not to say out loud, “Please, if ONLY I were ever in a situation in which all this chastity talk actually were applicable.”

It would be nice if discussions of chastity in a family ward RS included an acknowledgement that single people also existed in the ward–so few of them do, in my experience (or refer to single people as if they weren’t adults, which is a hot button for me; sorry, at 37 I’m very much an adult whether or not I’m married). But chastity isn’t just refraining from sexual relations before marriage–it’s also complete fidelity after marriage, which would also be a good discussion.

I’d like emphasis on chastity being a positive principle, with rewards and power of its own, and not just a negative don’t-do-this-and-this-and-this. I’d like a discussion of the mental attitude and spiritual outlook that are part of chastity, as well as the inevitable physical emphasis.

And I *really really really* applaud your decision to keep the emphasis on the adult women in your room, rather than taking the easy and obvious shifting to “how do we teach this to our children.” You can’t convincingly teach something you don’t live or don’t understand.

I think that the Church’s teachings on abortion are often confused with the members’ political positions on laws regarding abortion.

Here are two facts:

1. The Church does not dictate it’s members’ political positions on abortion.
2. The Church allows its members to have abortions under specific circumstances.

However in my experience many members are unable to accept either of those facts and seem to prefer this set of “facts”:

1. Abortion is always bad.
2. Given #1, righteous people should make sure that nobody ever has an abortion and use the force of law to do so.

So the difficulty is having a productive discussion about reality when many people in the room will be entirely unwilling to accept the basic premises. I’m guessing that this very comment will make people angry.

I’m eagerly awaiting to see how this topic is handled in your lesson.

arj–really? I think the Churches stance is very clear. Like anything the Church takes a stand on, I expect that some people will disagree. I do not, however, expect disagreement with the Church position to be voiced in this lesson. Maybe that is wishful thinking, but I just think this particular group of RS sisters has a pretty good handle on reality. I’ll let you know, though.

I think the law of chastity is best understood in the context of the plan of salvation. Culture makes sexuality a personal right; the gospel makes it a stewardship. The doctrine makes the law of chastity make sense, and that to me is what makes it about more than just a list of ‘don’ts.’

Also, I have a new perspective on abortion after hearing good friends who are on a mission in Africa talking about how abortion is the norm for birth control. I think that reality is a rather simple way to address it in the context of the law of chastity.

jks, I really liked your comment except:

“How is a Playboy model different than a woman who goes in and bears her breasts for the (cosmetic only) plastic surgeon to see and feel? Is there a difference when neither is necessary.”

There is a huge difference because only one of those is intended for sexual stimulation. I’m not trying to start a debate about the ethics of cosmetic surgery but equating it with pornography is clearly the wrong approach. Please don’t ever say this in RS I beg you. You will have some sisters angry or in tears for sure.

Your comment is otherwise excellent.

arJ is right about the abortion thing. Many people think it is the same as murder, but the Church does not teach that.

I think you should approach this subjuct with the understanding that there may be people in the class who have had pre-marital or extra-marital sex or who struggle with sexuality in any number of ways. Learning to have more open and honest discussions about sex and chastity will go a long way toward helping people whether they are single, married, divorced, etc.

Modesty is another topic that often comes up with discussions of chastity. I highly recommend Tracy M’s recent post on the topic.

Yes, yes, yes. Love that idea.

I remember how nervous I was to extend the invitation to live the law of chastity to an investigator(don’t think she was ever baptized during my time in the field) who had children by different fathers that were like stair steps and I don’t know if she was ever married. I think a social worker had been helping her and her children. I was so surprised that she said she did not want men to use her any more.

I saw a documentary about free sex and the sexual revolution and it said that so many young lives were messed up. They romanticized hippie days but there were sad consequences. One of the most feminist women has said that the sexual revolution benefited men as they did not need to commit to marriage. I hope I’m not too blunt.

MCQ – I hope my comment didn’t sound like I was actually drawing a line in all those situations. I phrased it as a question as how nuanced different types of nudity in different situations can be. I was just trying to show that living the law of chastity might be a little complex even for married people.
The church doesn’t want to have to spell things out and be nitpicky about where to draw the lines, but we need to be able to actually ponder these things and not let ourselves drift whichever the winds (or Satan) blows us.
As for my RS, I am proud to be a member of my relatively boob enhancement free ward (even though people in the bloggernacle rarely believe me). However, I detect a definite shift in thinking with the younger generation so it may not stay that way. Since the last big bloggernacle discussion it happened…someone in the ward said she was considering it. She eventually “repented” and said she was over it. But that was my first sign that these women who are 10 years younger than me view things a little differently. So while some of those young women might be dreaming about it, economics still comes into play and it is still pretty rare. I just don’t think many of our little old widows on their fixed incomes can afford the work.
For some reason, I just don’t see me making a comment about boob jobs that is going to put my relief society into tears unless it is the double masectomy grandmother who hopes to stay around for a long time because her grandchildren are abused by their father and she hopes visits with her can help them.
Certain things are cultural, so even if you take into account age and economics, we don’t have many bleach/highlighted blondes either. No one tries to tan, we happily wear our white legs and no one apologizes for the whiteness of their legs (it is so strange to go other places where people mention it and then I remember oh, yeah, it other places I’m supposed to hate myself for having pale skin or go tanning or use sprays or something).
Sorry for the threadjack!!!! This is important stuff for me and since I occasionally feel pressure to move away to a family mecca neighborhood in other states, it is good to remind myself that there are some things that I really appreciate about the culture here, even if it is devoid of families or people my age in the ward.

Whoa, ESO. Sounds like you have some issues with men. But regardless of what your issues might be, belittling the changes that men go through in their lives with regard to the addition of a child is not the answer. In fact, your list is quite sexist. Not every couple’s situation is identical.

ESO, you’re the one that made the list acting like every couple has the same list of changes:

“temporarily interrupted sleep or stepping out of Elder’s Quorum with a fussy baby or having to buy a new car that fits the whole family is, in fact, almost nothing to having your biology changed, having people literally feed off of your body, and quitting your life in the adult world to stay home in babyland 24/7.”

My point is, a lot of men have a lot more changes than the ones you are so dismissive of, including taking turns waking up and feeding a baby, changing their work schedule to help with day care, etc. and a lot of women don’t breast feed and don’t quit their jobs to stay home with a baby. So maybe you could bag up your stereotypes.

With that in mind, please note that there is no one table or diagram that fits every couple, so that discussion is ridiculous.

My comment about your issues is not a dismissal of your argument but merely an observation about your tone, which you have now confirmed.

As far as abortion goes (as a topic in RS), I would be very careful. Because there might be someone in the room who’s had an abortion, sitting there in quiet anguish. I know you wouldn’t do this, ESO, but once you open the door on that conversation, someone in the room’s going to go to the “they’re damned” conclusion.

I would gauge your “audience.” For instance, I once gave a lesson on the word of wisdom to a group of teenagers (SS) and emphasized sleep, seatbelts, and a caution about suicide and depression. Because I knew they didn’t smoke or drink or do drugs.

That’s why I suggested what I did at first because the likelihood of anyone in the room while you’re teaching getting an abortion or having perverted sex is kind of low, so I’d go for the actual probable threats. Facebook. The workplace. Emotional infidelity. Soft porn??

Were I you, I’d guide the discussion away from abortion and homosexuality and focus on what Ardis said, with my cautions.

annegb–good thinking.

“Please keep in mind that about 25% of any all female adult class will have been sexually assaulted/raped as either a chlid or adult. i dont’t care where in the country or church you are, i believe that statistic is a minimum, and i think it is much higher for african-american women (50% to 75%).”

Bookslinger please supply citations for this paragraph or admit you just made that up.

ESo,

You never really addressed the fats on political opinions on abortion with regards to a gender division. The facts are that the polls suggest that women as are likely to be pro-life as men are. Some polls suggest that women are slightly more pro-life.

About 40% of all women in the US will have an abortion. If you interview potential convert women in the US for baptism lots and lots of them will have had an abortion. If you serve in the former eastern bloc the percentage is even higher.

mcq: research the stats yourself. I was on the low side. And factor in the estimate of the percent that go unreported. Actually, if you combine reported child-molest with reported adult rape, and factor in a percentage for unreported, the stats are worse.

As I stated in the intro sentence, I pointed out the stats as another reason for ESO to be cautious, diplomatic, and sensitive. As annegb pointed out, such a discussion can bring back traumatic memories for some people, and perhaps bring on feelings of unworthiness that are not merited. (I forgot to start out my comment with “ESO:” so maybe it was not obvious that I was directing the comment to her.)

Many women who’ve been sexually assaulted, either as children or adults, feel guilt even though they were the victims. Do I need to state the obvious that victims don’t carry sin in the matter? And as Tim points out, some people feel too much guilt for loc violations prior to learning the loc. The scriptures say that where there is no law, there is no sin.

It’s just a fact that many women feel guilt over having been a victim. That is something to be sensitive to. If you think I haven’t been sensitive enough in my comments, please explain how you would like me to be more sensitive.

Or does it bother you that the rate of sexual assault (perpetrated against children and adults) is higher among African-Americans ? If you doubt it, research the stats, and read some of the things that Oprah Winfrey has written about child abuse and rape.

The high rate of sex crimes in this country is a shame. The rate is higher than most people realize. I used to think the 25% rate of child-abuse for girls was overstated, but now I believe that to be the low end. And it’s even worse in many other countries, including some developed western countries.

I’ve met the kind of women I’m concerned about here, women who were abused as youngsters, went on to be promiscuous as teens and young adults, and then found the gospel and joined the church. Too many of them still carry feelings of guilt that they shouldn’t. The trauma of sexual abuse can haunt someone for the rest of their life. The low self-esteem that seems to be common can still find outlets of self-destruction.

So that’s why I think sensitivity towards these matters is called for in a discussion of the loc, especially among a female audience.

My friend, Cathy, whose blog http://acannthus.blogspot.com/ is one I enjoy, (dang, can’t find that quick link thing, sorry) stopped by yesterday and told me she started her last lesson (on eternal marriage) by placing an elephant front and center. Can’t remember if this was a picture or a figurine. I loved that idea. Then she held up a poster showing eternal marriage and a happy face or something like that. But she had drop downs showing eternal marriage, not so happy and divorce, etc.

We don’t need to make compromises to our personal standards or even to dilute the gospel to be sensitive and kind to others. I agree with Ron re abortion. I applaud Bookslinger’s awareness of the prevalance of sexual abuse.

You’ll have–what? 20 minutes?—to teach, uplift, motivate, and try to keep the room from dissolving into a self-righteous free for all. Good luck :).

I have two comments in moderation. Can someone please rescue them?

I appreciate Bookslinger’s comment about the fact that every ward has many people who have been victims of sexual abuse in some form. Regardless of what the statistics actually are, it is a very common problem. I completely agree that anyone teaching about the loc needs to assume that the class includes victims of sexual molestation/rape because it almost certainly does. Another issue to consider is that almost every ward probably has perpetrators as well.

Also, ESO, we are waiting for your report…how did your class go?

About 1 in 4 of the girls I dated at BYU indicated at some point that they had been sexually assaulted/abused as a child. And these were just the ones where it came up (I never asked; for some reason, they mentioned it themselves). Certainly not a scientific sample, though I have also heard anecdotes at another non-LDS university that it approaches 1-in-4 or 1-in-3. However, these are not generally LDS families.