Mormon Mentality - Thoughts and Asides by Peculiar People

By annegb

Sep. 9th, 2011 at 10:53 am

I like Cher. I’m not much for her music, but I think she’s a cool person. She and Sonny came to national attention when I was in 8th grade, I think. We were in love with them! Because they seemed approachable, “normal” in that they weren’t elite or above everyone else.

Their TV show was cool because Cher made fun of Sonny and there was their little girl and I personally had no clue till the end that they were very unhappy. Cher had all those different outfits! It was a nice variety show, overall.

I’ve followed Cher a bit over the years; I recall her letting some TV show into her home and she showed her son’s room. The re-marriage and subsequent divorce. “Gregory” she called him. The Oscars–LOVED her in Silkwood!

I’ve felt compassion and admiration for her as she’s weathered a lot of ups and downs through the years. While I don’t think celebrities should have special status or exemption in a lot of areas, my heart goes out to them when they have to deal with things we all deal with, in public. I don’t know how any of them maintain their composure.

I felt for her when Chastity announced her homosexuality; the news reports said that Cher had some problem accepting this and I think any parent, no matter how liberal, might be disconcerted. That paradigm shift thing would take a minute, that’s for sure. I’ve drastically changed my mindset over the years concerning homosexuality and now have relatives and friends who have come out who I love and respect and interact with all the time. Their sexuality is not an issue anymore. It was hard twenty years ago; it’s less so now.

Anyway, yeah, I could identify with her difficulty there to some extent (none of my children has come out—yet). But when Chaz announced he was meant to be a man, that was too much for me. I was shocked. Couldn’t imagine Cher’s chagrin.

Now, Chaz will be on DWTS and people are protesting. I’m not one of them. But I’ll probably watch in much the same mood as I did Kate Gosselin. The sensationalist aspect—watching a train wreck—will be hard to digest. (Parenthetically, I have to think a lot of Chaz’s actions are meant to draw attention. I question the sincerity of the gender change and wonder if it’s not a result of confusion rather than genuine conviction. Because what’s the purpose of the wide publicity?)

I’ve struggled with this, wondering if I really am a bigot, wondering why I feel a bit revolted every time I see a picture of Chaz. I know part of this is his weight. I have a problem with obesity. My sisters will tell you our mother was kind of mean about it–always asking us how much we weighed, telling us how little she weighed and rudely telling people they were fat in her later, demented years. I am revolted every time I see a picture of myself at the weight I’m at now. Sitting for 3 years on a job ruins one’s figure.

I will probably watch the show–although Nancy Grace grates on me, too! But I’m going to have a problem with Chaz. Or maybe not. I’m anticipating trouble. But I think it’s going to be kind of gross. Sorry, I feel guilty about it, but that’s where I’m coming from. I’m scolding myself as I speak.

1. Jeff

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 11:27am

Disagreeing with a person’s choices doesn’t make you a bigot, Anne. A bigot is someone who is prejudiced against all members of a certain group because they are members of that group. If you think all transgender/transsexual individuals are bad people and/or don’t deserve the same rights the rest of us enjoy, then you could be a bigot, but I’m not seeing any evidence of that in what you’ve said here.

2. living in zion

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 12:55pm

I’m pulling up a chair right next to ya. I feel exactly the same way about all of it, even loving the Sonny and Cher show as a kid. Watching Nancy Grace will be more of problem for me. I really can’t stand her show.

3. Nick Literski

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 1:07pm

Annegb, bravo to you for being honest about your feelings, and at the same time allowing yourself to be vulnerable by publicly examining those feelings.

I think gender dysmorphia and transgenderism are difficult concepts for many to grasp, simply because of unfamiliarity. I know that I was raised knowing virtually nothing about transgendered persons, other than that they “deviants” to be shunned or ridiculed. Those negative feelings weren’t really challenged until a few years ago, when I found out that a man I’d been acquainted with for several months had been born biologically female. I was amazed–he fit none of the stereotypes I’d been taught to expect. His whole appearance, demeanor, and energy was such that I couldn’t (and still can’t) conceive that he was ever “female.” In reality, many people reading this blog may be personally acquainted with a transgendered person, yet completely unaware of it.

Unfortunately, our culture’s lack of awareness on this issue continues to result in many instances of assault, rape, and murder. I don’t think for a moment that Chaz made his transition in order to gain attention. At the same time, he fully acknowledges that he’s using his trasition, along with his celebrity (or at least his mother’s?) to bring greater pubic understanding–maybe even to save a life.

Since you already watch DWTS, I’d encourage you to just continue watching as you have, with an open mind toward Chaz. After all, his appearance on the show is ultimately no more political than that of Bristol Palin or Tom Delay. Let yourself “get acquainted” with Chaz, and see whether that affects your feelings.

4. Nick Literski

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 1:08pm

Oh—and Nancy Grace makes my skin crawl. :-)

5. annegb

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 1:25pm

The people you mention, Nick, made my skin crawl as well. So embarrassing to watch. That astronaut!

It seems like the show is going for sensationalism. Where’s Brian Gibson when we need him?

6. Bookslinger

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 1:26pm

I forget what Chaz looked like as a woman. But as a man, he’s not someone I’d be comfortable watching.

But hey, it’s television, it’s Hollywood. They’re putting him on to draw viewers.

I saw a recent headline somewhere that said he can’t dance, got no rythm; so that’s another indication it was just for shock value or pushing the envelop, or whatever-you-call-it, to draw in viewers. A TV show has to be outrageous, and they’re all trying to outdo each other.

7. Kevin Barney

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 1:45pm

I’m not bothered by Chaz. I’m a fan of DWTS and will no doubt watch.

I think I was heavily influenced by a presentation on intersex I attended at my very first Sunstone (a regional one in Chicago). I don’t remember the guy’s name (I want to say Hatch), but it was outstanding, complete with pictures. I had had no idea. So I don’t doubt that gender dysmorphia is a real phenomenon, and consequently if Chaz says he’s just a guy, I believe him. No one changes his or her sex lightly.

I was curious whether his partner, Lacey (Sister Schwimmer), would have a problem with it, but so far as I can tell she’s completely on board. Good for her.

8. Nick Literski

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 2:07pm

From the interview I saw, Chaz’ partner is bisexual and has been in a relationship with a man before. She’s completely supportive of Chaz’ transition.

9. annegb

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 2:18pm

What book said.

I think celebrities should have to audition and show some sense of rhythm, or grace. Because it’s really embarrassing to watch the terrible ones. Who knew Sugar Ray Leonard could look awkward? The show started out classy, I thought (my memory is terrible), but seems to be sinking to National Enquirer mentality.

Because watching somebody tank is not fun at all. I can dance better than a lot of them!! Bill, he can’t dance.

10. annegb

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 2:19pm

I mean, Kate Gosselin. Clearly delusional.

11. living in zion

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 2:26pm

Like #3, I was all weirded out by the gender stuff, then I watched a documentary about babies born with anatomical problems like ovaries and uterus on the inside, 1/2 formed male genitally on the outside, or no genitals, etc, etc., and then I realized my attitude (taught at home, reinforced at church) that we are all boy or girl spirits inhabiting a physical body, that God doesn’t make mistakes about gender, is not based in reality.
Parents of an “It” child, with no obvious gender at birth, have a really impossible coin toss in deciding what gender to assign for their child and can only hope it pans out when the child is old enough to tell them if they guessed right.
In the same way, I feel for Cher. No one knows what a child will announce when they reach adulthood.

12. annegb

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 2:35pm

I kind of admire Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt for letting Shiloh be who she is….although I wish they’d fix those kids’ hair.

13. a random John

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 3:15pm

Nick,

I believe that Kevin was speaking of his dance partner, not his partner. Lacey Schwimmer is LDS.

14. Nick Literski

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 5:03pm

Ahhh…my mistake, ARJ.

15. Nick Literski

Fri, Sep 9, 2011 @ 5:07pm

In the same way, I feel for Cher. No one knows what a child will announce when they reach adulthood.

I admire Cher’s assertive “standing up” for her children. Despite the fact that, as she’s openly admitted, she had her initial struggles with her son’s sexuality and gender identity, she’s ended up where every mother should be–firmly in her child’s corner, supporting him all the way.

16. Bookslinger

Sat, Sep 10, 2011 @ 2:44am

It’s one thing for a gender-ambiguous baby to grow up and tell the parents they guessed wrong. But I don’t think that’s the case with Chaz. AFAIK, Chaz was born with normal female plumbing, and a normal pair of XX (female) chromosomes. If that is indeed true, then every cell in Chaz’s body still has a pair of XX chromosomes, no matter what hormones he takes, and no matter what surgery was done.

I think we’ve gone around on the various broad categories of dysmorphia or whatever it’s called. There are chromosomal abnormalities, such as XXY, XYY, or a chimera of XX and XY. And there are cases that have normal XX or XY chromosomes, but outward/inward physical abnormalities, wherein the DNA code was right, but for some reason the construction of the organs went awry during gestation. Then there are cases where the DNA is normal, and all the reproductive organs are normal, but the mind is just wired or programmed as the opposite gender. In the latter case it’s sometimes thought by some to be brought on by hormone levels in the mother during gestation, as is suspected in some cases of same-sex-attraction.

I’ve known 3 male-to-female transgender persons, and in all three cases I first came to know them after they started living full-time as a woman. None of them struck me as naturally carrying themselves as a woman. All three seemed like they were _acting_ or playing a part, or putting on a show. They got better at it over time, but it seemed like they had to learn how to act as a woman. Therefore, at least in those 3 cases, I did not fully buy into the idea that they were really a woman on the inside all along. If they had been, I don’t think they would have needed to “put on an act” of acting like a woman. I’ve known butch lesbians and tomboy-ish girls who were more “natural women” than those TG’s.

That “pretending” (the awkward and obvious efforts made at altering their bearing) was more disconcerting than the outwardly physical awkwardness of them not knowing (at that time, they got better as time went on) how to dress in a feminine manner or put on makeup.

Trying to have a gospel outlook helps me be charitably minded towards such people, and, well, to everyone. In the resurrection, all physical, mental, emotional and spiritual handicaps, inuries, and illnesses will be healed. We will be healed and comforted from all hurts. By the end of the millennium, we all will have repented of (and/or paid for) our sins and be resurrected. Every tear will be wiped away. Everyone will be restored to their proper form, and we will be content with whatever form we are restored/resurrected to, with a full realization that God’s judgements and decress are just.

If indeed a spirit of one gender is born into a physical body of the opposite gender, God will put it right in the resurrection.

I also believe that if some illness/accident/whatever causes someone to mistakenly think their spirit is of the opposite gender, that illness/accident/misunderstanding/whatever will be healed or corrected.

So, if Chaz’s spirit really is male, I think he’ll get a male body in the resurrection. If Chaz’s spirit really is female, it will be a female body, but at the same time he/she will be restored/healed to a proper understanding, and to such a degree, that he/she will actually _want_ whatever resurrected body God provides.

That can be a scary thought. Because coming to the _true_ understanding of things that God wants us to know, might require us to abandon things that we are currently absolutely sure of.

(There are likely many things that very orthodox members of the church have wrong, and those misunderstandings will eventually be corrected too. )

But as I understand it, that’s one of the pre-requisites of resurrection. Kneeling before God, and acknowledging that He is perfect and just in all His judgements and decrees. (“Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess…” etc.)

17. MCQ

Sat, Sep 10, 2011 @ 3:22pm

Bookslinger, much of what you’re saying here is pure speculation. We just don’t know much about God’s actions or intentions toward LGBTQ people, or what will happen with them in the resurrection. We are told that gender is an eternal characteristic, but that doesn’t mean that there will be no homosexuals in the resurrection. We just don’t know. And it seems to me that it’s not much comfort to say to our LGBTQ brothers and sisters: God will fix you in the resurrection. Since we don’t know that for certain, and since it doesn’t help them live their lives now, we should probably just show them the love and respect they deserve and keep our speculation to a minimum.

18. Steven B

Sun, Sep 11, 2011 @ 1:05am

The part in the Proclamation on the Family about eternal gender was probably intended originally to address that matter of “gender confusion,” which was a non-sexual term for homosexuality used by many church authorities in public discourse at the time. But it had the unintended consequence of providing a doctrinal paradigm wherein transgendered church members can find a place in this world, as eternally gendered individuals simply born in the wrong bodies. As such, it is an idea that most church members should be able to come to accept–indeed much more so than the concept that there are eternal gay and bi-sexual orientations.

I viewed an interesting ABC News segment this morning about a family with a transgendered child. It is well worth watching: http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/jackie-transgender-kids-gender-identification-primetime-nightline-14425323

19. annegb

Sun, Sep 11, 2011 @ 9:02am

I agree with Book, Mcq. It could be skewed the way your last sentence implies–and I’ve pondered that concept—but, if we all agree that there is a God, a plan, and a purpose to life, won’t everything ultimately be made right? I’ve actually used the same terms in regards to many issues which have nothing to do with gender issues.

His assumption that the “right” will be man and woman is a fair one, if the gospel is taken at face value. It’s something I struggle with. There’s a “but” in there no matter how the conclusion is worded. “Marriage between a man and woman, etc.” BUT homosexuality exists and I know people I’m convinced didn’t choose it. Children are born with problems (ie the xy chromosome thing which is beyond me). What the hell’s up with that?

Conversely, you can make the argument that people don’t choose to be homosexual, BUT what about the proclamation? What about the gospel?

I like what you said, Steve, because in a way it articulates the ambivalence I feel on this subject.

You can get just as mad at Bookslinger as you want, but he has a point. I think it’s a “the emporor has no clothes on” situation. While we3e all falling over to be PC and open and tolerant, how many people have the courage to say “Chaz is one unattractive man?” Or “that is one butt-ugly woman?” (Actually men can be pretty pretty as woman–women as men somehow lose something in the translation and I just now realized that I am less grossed out by a man dressing as a woman as a woman becoming very masculine because it turns out as something else entirely, like a third sex).

My experience has been mostly like Bookslinger describes in trans stuff. So I don’t think it’s as easy as you say, Mcq—I do think God’s going to make it right. Where I guess I differ with Book is that I’ve come to believe there’s something to all the gender issues that goes beyond childhood trauma or acting out, etc.and now feel my task is to be Christ-like, no matter what. (Not saying your unChristian, Book).

But I’m human. And I think Chaz if going to be painful to watch om DWTS. I think he’s going to make a fool of himself and those who say so are going to be labeled intolerant by Hollywood. Well, I also think Marie Osmond made a fool of herself.

On an entirely different note, I LOVE to watch good dancing. I’m disappointed in the show’s giving into the ratings game by deliberately choosing people who are unsuited to attract viewers.

Now, I MIGHT watch the first show and say. “Damn, Chaz can dance!” I doubt it, but that would be a nice surprise.

20. jjohnsen

Sun, Sep 11, 2011 @ 4:10pm

Half the people on the show can’t dance. That’s the point, they learn as they go. As for drawing viewers, you think? The reason they pick any of those people is to draw viewers, how do you think they make money?

As for changing your gender to get attention, that seems pretty extreme. I can’t imagine cutting off my penis just so I could get a ten minute segment on Maury Povitch or Oprah. In my opinion there has to be more to it in every case.

21. MCQ

Sun, Sep 11, 2011 @ 4:33pm

annegb, I think you’re missing my point.

22. annegb

Sun, Sep 11, 2011 @ 8:18pm

I don’t think so.

23. annegb

Sun, Sep 11, 2011 @ 8:21pm

I think your point is that Bookslinger is presuming to speak for God, in that God will make it right by restoring gender and heterosexuality. My point is that God will make things right. Period. How that’s going to wash out, I have new clue.

24. MCQ

Sun, Sep 11, 2011 @ 10:35pm

Yes, you have no clue. That’s my point.

25. annegb

Mon, Sep 12, 2011 @ 10:13am

Well, give me a clue. What is incorrect about my last statement?

26. Nick Literski

Mon, Sep 12, 2011 @ 2:00pm

#19:
(Actually men can be pretty pretty as woman–women as men somehow lose something in the translation and I just now realized that I am less grossed out by a man dressing as a woman as a woman becoming very masculine because it turns out as something else entirely, like a third sex).

I may not find Chaz physically attractive in any way, but the transgendered man I mentioned in my #3 is certainly a good-looking, masculine man. Likewise, I’ve seen transgendered women who are strikingly beautiful, as well as others who I genuinely pitied, because they were just…ahem…”challenging” on the eyes.

27. Nick Literski

Mon, Sep 12, 2011 @ 2:03pm

Oh—and did I mention that I’ve seen dramatically unattractive non-transgendered men and woman, as well? Funny how that works, eh? ;-)

28. annegb

Mon, Sep 12, 2011 @ 3:06pm

oh, yeah, there is that. Good point. I’m lol-ing, but I’m getting embarrassed about admitting it.

29. MCQ

Mon, Sep 12, 2011 @ 4:53pm

annegb #25: My only point was that we don’t know the answers to these questions, so we shouldn’t act like we do.

30. annegb

Mon, Sep 12, 2011 @ 8:02pm

oh. well, suppose you think you know the answer? You can’t decide what somebody else thinks they know.

31. MCQ

Tue, Sep 13, 2011 @ 12:26am

No one can know this because it hasn’t been revealed. If you think you know then you should probably keep it to yourself because God has spoken only to you.

32. annegb

Tue, Sep 13, 2011 @ 8:21am

i give up

33. brian

Sat, Sep 17, 2011 @ 1:14pm

annegb,

I think you are quite an interesting and skilled writer. That should be enough, yes?

Well done, again.

34. annegb

Tue, Sep 20, 2011 @ 11:21am

Enough for what? I’d trade my (relatively) not obese body and big blue eyes, plus ANY skill I have to be a kind and gentle person who never gets mad or lashes out.

I didn’t watch DWTS last night–I was clicking back and forth and being in the midst of what I call a “viral flare” when my body betrays me, went to bed quite early.

But I always record the morning shows and so have seen Chaz dancing. My heart kind of breaks for him. I could see the fear, the uncertainty and the courage. He’s not a bad dancer–he’s got some rythm. (did I spell that right?) I think I’ll put Bill on there because he has none. Dancing with him, all solid 6’4″ of him, is like dancing with a telephone pole.

I guess Nancy Grace didn’t do so bad, either.

Who am I to diss someone else’s attempt to live their life with gusto? To say “this is who I am.”? I honest to deity didn’t expect to say this, but good on you, Chaz.