Perhaps it is my unusually thick headedness, but what was objectionable about the scouting donation request?

To address your question in the comment, our religion should be held to a higher standard. Nevertheless, people are people, and the distinction between them should be made. This is why we need to keep the spirit with us when we speak with those in authority, so that we can help them fulfill their callings and grow. I can think of several conference talks where the leader was gently corrected by those he was called to serve, and became the better for it. Most people are trying their best. That said, I can think of two horribly unjust situations with church leaders (bishop and mission president), where an unjustified “stand” led to unfortunate results (extended inactivity and leaving the church). What I wouldn’t give for someone else to have stood up and said something on behalf of those brothers.

I should have been more careful in my phrasing. I did not mean to state that I can think of the exact talks. But rather I meant to have said that I seem to recall stories where a bishop, EQ president, in the course of his duties is instructed by the process of serving member (usually an older and wiser sister), not necessarily being called on the carpet or verbally corrected. But perhaps I am confusing other conferences with general conference. In any event, I intended to have my comment serve as a method of correction (such as the member humbly taking direction, but making an observational wink). This is not effective in all situations, and is best used when the leader is for the most part self aware and receptive to suggestion.

As to the scout donations, our ward pushed it hard (letter to each member, announcement over the pulpit, follow up phone calls), but with an acknowledgement that economic times are hard. That said, our ward’s goal was almost five figures (hundred something for each registered cub scout and scout), double what we collected last year. It can be a tough line, and sounds like it was crossed. This tends to bring out the contrarian in me as well.

Re: the scouting donation efforts, we were asked to call or visit everyone on a single night and get it all “done” in our stake. However, uncomfortable you think it is to be solicited at church for an immediate donation, being the “telemarketer” who called everyone up in the ward is even more awkward!
But even so, I wasn’t that worked up by and and I hope no one else was either… It’s not a crime to say no thanks or say nothing at all. I think the reason why people feel uncomfortable is they either feel they should, but don’t want to (or can’t), or they feel like others expect them to, and they don’t want to (or can’t).

In either case, it becomes an low risk experience where we can work out our feelings vs. the feelings of others and what we can or want to do. There’s this “disconnected” between the can do/don’t want to or expected to/don’t want to (or can’t, etc) and that “gap” in the feeling makes us uncomfortable. I can resent the uncomfortable feeling of calling 50% of the ward in a single night to solicit funds, or I can use the opportunity to grow.

FWIW, I’m sure the bishopric member was equally uncomfortable asking in this manner… I assume it came down from the stake like ours did, and since I’m guessing we’re not in the same stake, it came from higher than that. All probably felt a little uncomfortable in the change in routine.

Nazi-ish blackmail

Did they wear jackboots and jodphurs? Colored armbands? Or just speak with a thick accent, making references to blood and soil?

Anne,
Thanks for declining to contribute to Friends of Scouting. I wish more people would. Now, whatever you and Bill were thinking of contributing, save it for the fundraiser that your ward’s scouts do this year and donate it then.
The difference is that the only time the boys in your troop will see any of that money is as they watch you place it in the envelope. The council scout executives on the other hand earn a 6 figure salary that is funded from your friends of scouting donations.
As a former scoutmaster, it bothers me that last year, we raised something like $600 at our fundraiser but in the friends of scouting drive we raised over $3,000. And of course, in the church, the scout troop is only allowed 1 fundraiser per year.
Perhaps I’d be more comfortable if they eliminated the troop fundraiser and made FOS a 50/50 split with 50% going to the council, and 50% going to the local troop.

Ron,

I agree. FoS goes directly to the district, and isn’t seen at all locally. I’m a scoutmaster and I won’t donate.

KLC–then I see NO reason FOS should ever be mentioned at Church. Just as I would never ask for donations to my pet organization, why should scouts?

Anne, #13. So sponsor a boy with what you would have given to FOS. Then you can tell the bishop when he shakes you down for FOS that you’ve chosen to make your contribution where you know it will directly help someone in your ward.

I’m kind of glad there is finally a post about Scouting. Whenever I think of the money that goes in to the scouting program it makes me throw up a little bit in my mouth.

Here’s the breakdown of where the funds go according to the GSLC 2011 FOS pamphlet which can be found here:
http://www.gslc-bsa.org/openrosters/DocDownload.aspx?id=81296
Programs, Activities, Training, & Service 64%
Council Camps 26%
Fundraising 8%
Management & General 2%

The problem I have with it is that as a scoutmaster I can’t remember any programs, activities, training, or service that my boys didn’t still have to pay for. Summer camp at a council camp was $200 per boy.
and finally, look at that. 8% of what you donate will go to training people on how to more effectively shake you down next year.

To me FoS is a test of faith. I too am a scoutmaster, and I think boy scouting is marvelous. Done right (which I try to do), it can appeal to a broad swath of boys, teach a variety of skills, and provide exposure to all sorts of trades, sports, activities, and hobbies. Nothing I’ve seen compares to it.

But it sure strikes me as a charity whose primary mission has turned into fundraising. I can’t figure out where the money goes, and there’s a lot of it. I’ve been singularly unimpressed with the District Executives (low-ranking paid scouters) and near as I can tell, most of the real work is still done by volunteers. They do provide a lot of training — so much in fact, that if I got all the necessary training for every activity we do, I wouldn’t actually have time to do the activities. Some nasty part of my brain says that all that training is more to protect BSA from lawsuits than to actually protect the boys. And the pins, patches, shirts, etc. are quite expensive — a good portion of the primary budget is wiped out for cub scout awards!

The “Lord’s program” for YM notwithstanding, I couldn’t bring myself to donate either.

“Just as I would never ask for donations to my pet organization, why should scouts?”

Well, the answer to that is the stock answer that “Scouting is the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood.” So it’s not just a pet organization, it’s the organization the Church has chosen to use, and therefore has some obligation to support.

Having said that, and as an Eagle Scout and former scoutmaster myself, I have real problems with fundraising as it’s currently done. The Church does not need to support the bloated money-sucking organization that oversees scouting. The church could do the same thing for itself, and could do it cheaper and better than BSA does.

And the plain fact is that it’s not the “activity arm” of the aaronic priesthood anyway, since there is no BSA in other countries, and the countries that do have scouts of some kind do not have the same problems with fundraising and money-sucking that we have with the BSA.

It’s way past time that we severed ties with the BSA and formed our own scouting organization in conjunction with the Duty to God program. there’s no reason those two programs should be run side-by-side. Duty to God could do everything that scouting does and be cheaper and more focused on things we actually care about.

MCQ,

Given that we support the activities of the YW with tithing money, why shouldn’t we simply do the same for the BSA? Why don’t we ask all the members to give $50 or $100 a year to the activity arm of the YW program? Because they’re already paying for it with their tithing. We’re already paying for scouts with tithing as well, we just get hit twice.

And paying seperately for all the stuff you have to buy at the scout store and for camp etc. It’s more like getting hit four or five times.

The BSA is like the mafia. You have to keep paying and paying just to make sure they don’t show up at your house.

None of the FoS money is kept locally. None of it offsets any ward expenses. You could argue that camp is subsidized by it, but that assumes that you go to a council camp. Plus, at $200 per person I can’t imagine that camp is much cheaper than it would be otherwise.

That SL Trib article has an Onionesque quality to it: “Area Man Released as Young Men President after He Tells Ward that Friends of Scouting is a Rip-Off.”

I favor the Church’s use of and involvement in scouting overall, and yet I have to nod my head with a lot of the comments above about the finances of it. What I take from the Church’s commitment to Friends of Scouting is that it wants to have influence with the Scout councils, so it is buying it. There are plenty of scout-haters who think otherwise, but Church leadership thinks the BSA is an organize that it is useful to have ties with. In some places I’ve seen an inkling why that may be: I’ve seen nothing else that involves members of the Church with the community, as members of the Church and not as random individuals, to the extent that scouting can and often does.

I’d say this young men’s leader crossed the line. I have no problem with the email per se, and I agree with the message behind it but he should have been more careful about his facts. I’d be interested to know what his boys did as their fundraiser this year and how much they netted. This is probably the case of a YM leader who sees his YM budget shrinking each year and is frustrated by the massive donations given to the scouting beaurocracy and not the scouts.

The thing that bothers me the most about this article is that the Stake President felt compelled to make up the difference out of his own pocket. If there’s that much pressure on the church from this fundraiser then it’s time for the Church to quit subsidizing them.

And Chris,
The church has a separate budget separate from the ward young men’s budget that is set aside specifically for the Annual dues for scouting. This Scouting for Money program is over and above the annual dues.

Last year as a scoutmaster, we barely had enough in the YM budget to pay for Camp. Anything else we did over the rest of the year we had to ask the boys to pay for. We tried to find free campsites as much as possible, and for meals what we tried to do was have a committee of boys plan the menu for the campout and then each boy was given an assignment for some items to contribute to the meal that the family might typically have in the pantry anyway. But it was still tough.

I’d definitely say that YM leader crossed the line. Who hasn’t had to deal with an ass-of-a-bishop/SP/aux pres at some point? But as athletes will tell you, you don’t take it out of the locker room unless you no longer want to be part of the team. Or, to use another metaphor, sometimes family members aren’t nice to each other, but recruiting friends to take sides in an intra-family feud isn’t going to lead to reconciliation.

And, I completely agree with the guy with regards to FoS.

annegb perhaps your husband is right about scout camps in your area but last summer my sons went to a camp in the Sierras and paid $280 each. The going rate for Camp Cherry Valley which is on Catalina Island is $550 per boy I think.

Annegb, from the bits I’ve seen, that’s pretty much what happens now.

Annegb,

I am currently a scoutmaster. Camps in Utah cost $200-$250 per boy plus charges for leaders. Fees for merit badges (about half te badges have extra fees) are $10-$25 per badge. The boys take about six classes so that is about $30 extra per boy.

Our ward covered all but $75 of the cost of camp but did not cover merit badge fees. When we got there and I found out how much some of the badges were I took a few boys aside privately and gave each about $40. I was a bit shocked on Friday when they gave me change back. I had told them to make sure to spend it all.

FoS might help the camps somewhat, but havin worked at one I can tell you that the staff is under paid and they don’t like to spend on improvements.

MCQ, true, but you only know one half of the story and will likely never know the other side. It’s like hearing one side of a divorce. There’s usually a little more to it.

By the way, the part I thought went over the line was contacting the press about being released.

I don’t know where to find similar numbers for the Great Salt Lake Council, but its budget is around $7.8 million according to this old story at KSL.

I meant “you CAN’T use that dodge this time.”

Martin, are you a troll, or just out to lunch? The Tribune did the article, not the YM Pres. There’s nothing damning about the email, it just says what the SP said, and he had the chance to explain his side of the story, which he did.

The article printed both emails and quoted both sides. What else do you want them to do? All the evidence from both sides is in there. The SP was interviewed and told his side. We do know what evidence is out there, because it’s all in the article. What other evidence do you think is out there? This isn’t watergate. There’s no deep throat. The SP just overreacted and became a complete douchebag after the YM Pres did nothing but tell the truth. End of story. Sorry if you don’t like the story but claiming we don’t have all the facts ain’t gonna fly.

also, the “truth” that the YM pres told was inaccurate. If he was going to send that email he should have at least done due diligence to get his facts straight.

we can say that the YM pres was out of line based on what he said he did.

You can say that, but it would be false. Telling people that donations to FOS lines the pockets of the Scouting executives and does nothing to help the local unit is exactly right and information that people should know before they make a donation. I have had that same information passed along to me verbally for years and have decided not to contribute because of it.

I contribute to my unit so they can use the funds to benefit the boys in my ward. Some of that money goes to buy scouting materials and pay for camps and food and equipment, but it benefits scouts diectly, whereas FOS does not.

MCQ, I wasn’t claiming the article was unfair — I was just saying there’s probably more to the story. Since it’s a an overreaction for the SP to release the guy over the FoS email, I’d hope there was. For all you know this guy has a history of being confrontational with stake leaders, which, if you think about it, would fit the profile of a guy taking it to the press. Maybe the SP felt the guy working against him on multiple issues and this was just the final straw.

But that’s okay. You could be right — the SP’s a bully. Wouldn’t be the first time. I’ll bow out.

There’s no evidence that the Trib article’s author presented _all_ the evidence from both sides (the YM guy and the SP.)

That’s the reporter’s job. And there’s no evidence of any other info. Why do you assume there is?

And there’s no guarantee that both sides even _gave_ all their side of the story to the author.

Except that they were given an opportunity to do so. Why would they hold back any material facts? Why do you assume there is additional info lurking somewhere?

I suspect that the SP was a bit more mature and circumspect (than the YM guy) and didn’t tell the Trib author everything.

Your suspicions are interesting, but they don’t tell us anything about any actual facts. Actually, I take that back. They are not interesting at all. They are just stereotypical and irrelevant.

Besides, if the prophet tells members to throw money at BSA fat-cats, what’s a good Mormon supposed to do?

What good Mormons are always supposed to do: Ask questions, study the facts, pray for guidance to know the truth and the right thing to do as stewards over our own lives, our children’s lives, our callings and our own money and resources. Then after all that, do what you think is right based on the results of all those things. Why, what do you think good Mormons are supposed to do?

Book, your suspicion tells me the doubt always goes to the ruling authority. Something’s wrong with that assumption.

HALLELUIAH! AMEN AMEN and AMEN!!!!

The problem with applying that to scouting John is that the community scouters perception of LDS scouting is more right than wrong. So when we give them a chance to know us through scouting we are usually giving them a chance to personally confirm their biases and doubts. We have taken scouting and molded it into something that only vaguely resembles what scouting should be.

KLC,

For however happy the BSA might be with us, they seem eager enough to accept our money.

arJ, absolutely. Our money buys us grudging tolerance if not affection.

So then question,

Does FoS not harass school troops as much for donations? How is the church scouting experience different than the community scouting experience? Is it cheaper to go through the school? If I choose to enroll any future sons in the community, rather than the ward, program will there be off handed comments about my unfaithfulness? Oh, and generally speaking since I’m having a girl–will she be accepted by her peers into the school program?

All this debate about church donations has me wondering if my non-member friends are getting the same vibe.

NH, my sisters did brownies with the other girls in the community, as did many of the girls in our ward (since at the time the church had no program for girls of that age). When the time came for them to “fly up” to Girl Scouts, the ward made it clear that it discouraged participation in Girl Scouts by members since they felt it would detract from participation in the youth program of the ward.

Boys participating in a troop other than the troop that is funded by their ward would be similarly discouraged I’m sure, or even more so, and I don’t think there would be any advantage in participating in a non-mormon scout troop anyway. The Church generally has good leaders and does a good job with the scouting program, which is why I think they could do just as good a job, but much cheaper, by ditching the BSA and running its own program. The BSA in Utah would probably collapse without the Church’s participation, which is one reason that won’t happen. There are already an enormous number of scout leaders in the Church who refuse to participate in funding or training with the BSA, and that’s why there is quite a bit of resentment toward the Church from non-mormon BSA leaders who feel the Church doesn’t do enough to encourage participation in BSA training and other programs.

MCQ, I’ve found BSA training to be one of the outstanding things it has to offer. In fact, it was a my first scoutmaster training course that I saw the vision of a real scout troop and realized that it will never happen in an LDS troop due to artificial barriers we have created.

it will never happen in an LDS troop due to artificial barriers we have created.

Sounds very beneficial then. Money well spent.

arJ, I didn’t know that the Church even tried to do scouting in other countries. I had a companion from England and he said that the Church was trying to hook up with the Baden-Powell scouts there but it was not going so well.

MCQ: “That’s the reporter’s job. And there’s no evidence of any other info. Why do you assume there is?”

Are you serious? Have you ever researched the whole story behind a newspaper article? or TV report? Or been personally involved in a story that got reported in the press? I have. And there is ALWAYS more things that the reporter didn’t cover. There is never enough room in a newspaper article for the whole thing.

EVERY, EVERY, EVERY story that I’ve personally researched, or even just SPOKEN to participants about, has resulted in finding out relevant facts that the reporter didn’t report.

If you think newspaper reporters write (or the paper actually prints) ALL the relevant facts, then YOU are the naive one.

I don’t know, Mcq, I’ve never had that experience. I’ve researched and written things for the paper and somebody always said I left something out. And I really worked hard! I’m sure we don’t know the WHOLE story.

I think the human emotions involved in this were probably so intricate they couldn’t be communicated in a news story. Those we will never know and those are probably why the story happened in the first place.

ESO, thought you’d like to know I was talking to Bill about this yesterday and he agrees with you. He said he always thought the YW program got the short end of the stick.

No he really wasn’t. He was just trying to inform people. Something that has been done befoe by others for years. I guess his mistake was doing it in writing.

I’ve researched and written things for the paper and somebody always said I left something out. And I really worked hard! I’m sure we don’t know the WHOLE story.

That depends on what you mean by “the whole story.” I’m talking about reporting all the relevant facts. Just because someone might say “you didn’t include everything” doesn’t mean you left out anything that’s material to the story. there’s always an “insider’s complaint” (the journalist’s term for this) when people don’t think the story told their specific point of view, but that’s not important.

Telling all the relevant facts in a small story like this is not difficult. And it was done perfectly well in this instance as far as anyone here has any idea. Assuming that there are material facts lurking out there somewhere that would change the outcome of the story is irrational because there’s no basis for that assumption. It just betrays your own bias.

Mcq, that’s why I’ve hired you as my lawyer. By the whole story, I meant a substantial review of both mens’ psyches, childhood and motivations. The YM leader was informing? I think he was arguing his case. The reporter was informing.

This is the deal: If I go to my bishop to object to women not saying the opening prayer, that’s giving my opinion. If I blog about it, that’s talking to my friends. If I send an email to everybody in my ward, that’s trying to get my way. Line crossed. IF a reporter writes about it and leaves out my wayward nature, that’s not the full story.

Diane, we’ve never agreed before? Honestly, I have never ever heard of another sister interrupting one bearing testimony. But I’m glad you spoke up. Uh, DID she shut up?

The YM leader was informing?

Yes. Read the story. He sent an email out to the ward members informing them of the facts about the FOS funds drive.

Where are you thinking that he was arguing? In the article, the reporter interviewed both the YM Pres and the SP and both told their side of the story. That’s not arguing. That’s called getting interviewed by a reporter for a story and being quoted (hopefully accurately).

But, in any event, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the fact that the YM Pres sent an email out to the members of his ward informing them about FOS. The SP then sent an email back to the TM Pres stating that he was “appalled,” by the YM Pres’s email. Then the YM Pres got canned.

Now, the SP says that the YM Pres was released because of his general lack of support for scouting, not just because of the email. But he doesn’t specify what it is that the YM Pres supposedly did to show any lack of support for scouting.

This is the deal: If I go to my bishop to object to women not saying the opening prayer, that’s giving my opinion. If I blog about it, that’s talking to my friends. If I send an email to everybody in my ward, that’s trying to get my way. Line crossed. IF a reporter writes about it and leaves out my wayward nature, that’s not the full story.

That’s so not the deal.

His email wasn’t advocating anything, it was simply telling the facts about FOS. That’s why your example sucks, because if you sent an email to everyone in the ward about the opening prayer issue, it would not be telling them facts, it would be advocating a position. But that’s not what he did.

The FOS drive was already happening. As YM Pres, part of your calling is to participate in that funds drive. You, annegb, don’t have a calling that has anything to do with the opening prayer (that I’m aware of) but his calling does have responsibility with regard to FOS. So he sent the email to ward members informing them of how FOS funds are used. Many people do not understand that none (NONE!) of that money given to FOS comes to their local scouts. It all goes to Scouting HQ to pay expenses and salaries, and some of those salaries are very high.

The YM Pres did not say: “don’t contribute to FOS.” He just told people the truth about the use of the funds that they contribute. That’s not advocating. That’s informing. And what he said is the truth. It’s been told to me verbally for years and I have passed it along to people I know when they ask me about FOS. So this YM Pres did nothing different than has been done by many other members in the same or similar callings for years. He just did it in writing.

What “wayward nature” are you talking about annegb? You are just making that up. There’s no evidence that this YM Pres had any “wayward nature.”

Diane, you are a hero. Don’t let anyone ever tell you otherwise.

MCQ, FWIW I was reading things in the trib article that weren’t there. There’s actually nothing in the article that says that the YM president was distorting the facts, merely that he chose to emphasize the fact that the execs make too much money.
Bottom line I can’t actually say that he was out of line. Then again, without more details I won’t say the SP was out of line either.

Other than that little comment about making up the shortfall out of his own family’s budget. That’s a little ridiculous. How much did the SP donate at the TROOP’s fundraiser?

Thanks, Barb….