Safe? You’re aborting, ie. killing, a baby. Nothing safe about death.

I think it’s creepy for a 19 year-old to ask a lady in her 60s if she’s ever had an abortion.

Skyler Collins,

As a self proclaimed libertarian of some sort, how do you view what the role of government should be regarding abortion?

Why is abortion not rare? Because Americans don’t have reliable access to free or low cost birth control methods such as the pill, IUD or condoms. Our society sees little value in funding this education or in preventing abortions by providing birth control.

Yes, I know that birth control is not 100% effective, which is why I advocate additional education and research.

I too have heard the “rare” description used, but in practice, policy makers don’t want to move towards that. I suspect in Europe (where there are fewer abortions) there is greater access to birth control.

I believe that a handful of groups have hijacked the birth control debate to be only about abortion. 95-99 % of couples use some form of birth control throughout their lives.

I think the limited investment of paying up front for birth control would be repaid in society by fewer unwanted pregnancies, and people raising children before they really are capable of being stable parents.

Aerin, condoms are not exactly high cost. Im not as sure about the pill, but I know they are quite available. Your argument is not very strong.

I tend to agree with Jacob on BC. BC is both cheap and commonly available in the US. A monthly supply of generic BC pills runs about $10 at Walmart. Condoms are cheap and often free.

DCL,

I do agree that most Americans agree that it should be rare. However there is a minority of folks who see abortion as a moral good. Usually the reasons are population control and controlling the undesirable element in society. For years I lived in a very liberal part of a blue state and heard from numerous pro-abortion folks that poor children should be aborted rather then born. These folks are the modern day version of the Eugenics crowd from about 100 years ago.

I personally believe that a societal framework of safe and legal abortion leads logically and tragically to abortion being common. This is how its played out in the US since 1973.

I’m not sure exactly what the point of this post is, bbell, but the numbers don’t support what I think your conclusion appears to be. arJ is correct that the abortion rate has been in a pretty steady decline since the 70s. That declining rate is good news and should be celebrated. The last few years have seen some levelling off in that decline, which is some reason for concern. We could talk about what the reasons for that might be and how to get the decline moving again, but saying that abortion is “very common” and that “this is how its[sic] played out in the US since 1973″ is a distortion or simply an outright lie. The only constant since 1973 is that abortion rates have been declining, yet you fail to even mention that. It may not fit your thesis that “abortion is very common” but it is a fact.

I personally believe that a societal framework of safe and legal abortion best allows for the exceptions that the Church has listed as valid.

I would say that 40-50MM abortions in 38 years meets the definition of common. BC is cheap.

Tim, I would guess that the answer lies in attitudes and education.

I think I agree with aRJ on this.

Jenn is right, according to Guttmacher that 54% had access to BC in the month the became pregnant, they just didn’t use it correctly (didn’t take the pill every day, didn’t use a condom every time), so they became pregnant (which undercuts Jenn’s argument, sadly).

Guttmacher says:

“• Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.
• Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Of these women, 33% had perceived themselves to be at low risk for pregnancy, 32% had had concerns about contraceptive methods, 26% had had unexpected sex and 1% had been forced to have sex.
• Eight percent of women who have abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or less educated.
• About half of unintended pregnancies occur among the 11% of women who are at risk for unintended pregnancy but are not using contraceptives. Most of these women have practiced contraception in the past.”

So access to Birth Control doesn’t seem to be the issue so much as lack of education about it.

There are two arguments that could be made here:

One is that easy birth control (doesn’t require education on it’s use) is expensive, which ignores that they will need to go to an OB/GYN to have an IUD installed. I question whether this would have high adoption due to natural human aversion to medical procedures.

The second argument is that “the people” do not understand the importance of using birth control consistently. They do not have an emotional or intellectual connection to the importance of using it. Thus they lack motivation to use it.

#3 Tim, is their birth rate lower also? Maybe it’s as simple as that.

#11 buraianto, seriously? What fool doesn’t carry a condom knowing he’s going to try to bed someone?

#18 ARJ that makes sense to me;

You know, there are a lot of programs for women to get free birth control pills. A lot here in southern Utah. If you truly can’t afford it, which probably is a relative concept.

I am pro-life and pro-choice; I’m also disgusted with people who have many sexual encounters with no planning whatsoever.

I know several women who have had abortions just in the last few years. Never knew someone before that. Don’t know if that means it’s more common, but it’s more common in my life.

Let’s not forget the gendercide of the missing girls of Asia, whose number will soon reach 100,000,000.

“Suddenly, I thought I heard a slight movement in the slops pail behind me,” Miss Xinran remembers. “To my absolute horror, I saw a tiny foot poking out of the pail. The midwife must have dropped that tiny baby alive into the slops pail! I nearly threw myself at it, but the two policemen [who had accompanied me] held my shoulders in a firm grip. ‘Don’t move, you can’t save it, it’s too late.’

“‘But that’s…murder…and you’re the police!’ The little foot was still now. The policemen held on to me for a few more minutes. ‘Doing a baby girl is not a big thing around here,’ [an] older woman said comfortingly. ‘That’s a living child,’ I said in a shaking voice, pointing at the slops pail. ‘It’s not a child,’ she corrected me. ‘It’s a girl baby, and we can’t keep it. Around these parts, you can’t get by without a son. Girl babies don’t count.’”

Bradley, as arguments against abortion go, those are two of the worst I have ever heard. And by the way, neither one has anything to do with polictical correctness.

bbell,

I would say that 40-50MM abortions in 38 years meets the definition of common.

Then you don’t understand the definition of common. That seems to be the case, because you state in the title to your post that abortion is “very common” then when someone takes issue with it, you argue that abortion is “not rare” as if those terms are identical. They are not.

I agree that abortion is not rare enough. If there are any elective abortions being performed where there is no rape, incest, or maternal health threat, then we have too many abotions, but lets acknowledge that whatever we have been doing for the past tenty five years or so has been working and we need to do more of it. My guess is that contraception and education have been improving, as well as adoption options. We should continue to improve those things and try to make every pregnancy a wanted pregnancy, and when an unwanted pregnancy does happen, we should do everything we can to make adoption the outcome.

There is no way to achieve perfection in this area, as we already know that some people will still get abortions even if they are dangerous and illegal. We need to make sure they are safe and legal to have the option available in extreme cases, and for those who will, unfortunately, choose abortion regardless of the other, better solutions.

But in our determination to make abortion as rare as possible, let’s not lose sight of the fact that it has generally been getting more rare every year for a long time. I don’t think it helps us to continue that trend to have posts like this claiming that abortion is “very common” and laying the blame for this on the fact that it is safe and legal. That is neither accurate nor productive.

#26 and #30: What does a lower birthrate have to do with lower rates of unwanted pregnancies that end in abortion? It seems to me that Europeans are simply better at using birth control.

I think it’s pretty clear that education and attitudes are key. Should we alter our education and/or attitudes to become more like Europe in order to drive abortions down? I can’t see that happening without more of a focus on comprehensive sex-ed in high school (and, in some areas at least, junior high).

Also keep in mind, although birth control may be fairly cheap (although the good stuff, as stated above, isn’t quite as cheap), in order to get most forms of birth control one needs to see a doctor. For those without insurance (which right now is a huge percentage of the U.S.), seeing a doctor is not cheap. Unless you’re in Europe and everyone has insurance…(And, for those who’ve never been working poor, if you want Medicaid in most states you have to pretty much stop working, because even a few hundred dollars a month will get adults kicked off Medicaid).

Of course, condoms are cheap and don’t require a prescription, but I imagine the fact that it’s expensive for the working poor to get a prescription for birth control might be a factor anyway.

SilverRain,

I’d counter that as long as comprehensive sex-education is anathema in the US there won’t be a huge increase in birth control use. There are lots of reasons to use birth control, your comment expresses a the lack of education about those.

I was in college before any educator opened a condom in front of me and slipped it on a banana. The question is, should that happen in high school or even earlier?

For those that are comparing American views on sex education to that of other countries:

A documentary called Let’s Talk About Sex (available on Netflix) does just that.

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Let_s_Talk_About_Sex/70170707?trkid=2361637

An interesting part is when the issue of condoms come up, in America it is quickly assumed a person who has a condom in their purse/pocket clearly wants it (with girls being called “easy” and boys being questioned for motive). In the Netherlands, it’s a sign of respect among teens and rarely raises an eyebrow.

It also address the fact that in other countries, parents have a support system in place when it comes to teaching their children about the deed. America simply does not have that–with most parents being on their own when it comes to seeking advice.

STD rates are not nearly as low as they should be, and they’re rising fast.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705300740/Utah-has-record-numbers-of-STDs.html

I do agree that culture and family are important factors. And I do agree that the sex education many people receive is ineffective–but that has as at least as much to do with how it is taught as with what the culture’s like. And the culture’s probably not going to change without a change in sex education.

30 – How many women/couples use abortion as their primary form of birth control? I would assume that it’s fairly low. Unless we’re talking about the “morning after” pill, which I would assume is more common. I will look for resources, but it seems unlikely to me.

It is clear that abortion is more common after birth control fails. Perhaps the birth control was not used properly, but it seems unlikely that a woman or couple would have multiple abortions yearly. Not only would it be expensive, there might also be health consequences. For the record, some countries (like the former Soviet Union) did perform abortions very frequently because there weren’t other effective forms of birth control.

Some conservatives that I speak with counter my argument about birth control by suggesting that everyone needs to be responsible for the cost, education and hassle of this themselves. And I can respect that argument, but it doesn’t seem to me that it’s working very well. Also, some states have cut all funding for organizations like Planned Parenthood, which can be one of the only options for women to get low cost birth control and HIV testing.

What about this recent slate article about many abortions occurring for women who already have children? Why is that? Would abortions also be reduced if (like in Europe), women were paid to have children and fully financially supported during pregnancy and the first five years of each child’s life? Can you imagine the cost of that?

Maybe this whole issue tells us more about our society than we are really comfortable with. We have particular narratives in our culture – and I agree with the article – we become uncomfortable when those narratives are questioned. (Every woman is capable of being a birth mother or mother, every couple is capable of understanding and using birth control, motherhood is innate, fathers will always step up to the plate, etc.)

ARJ,

Look no further then the data upstream in the initial post. For example NYC has an abortion rate about 7 times higher then Utah. The out of wedlock data is easy to find as well. Here is some data from 1998 on out of wedlock birthrates. Its a bit dated but from what I have seen still holds pretty true. http://www.state.ok.us/osfdocs/budget/table25.pdf

I think I have a comment in moderation.

MCQ, I have tried to get it out. Annegbe can you get his post out of moderation?

I don’t see a comment in moderation, guys…

Condom use is 98% effective. That means that two out of every 100 sexual encounters when the condom is properly used results in a baby. Basically Russian roulette even when “protection” is used.

And they don’t usually mention that in sex ed, either, let alone in culture discourse, which is a lot more effective.

THAT is what I mean when sex should be more strongly mentally related to making babies than to pleasure. Our culture teaches that sex is for pleasure, babies are an unfortunate side effect, and you can avoid consequences if you’re careful enough. That’s a lie, flat out. If you have one sexual encounter per week for a year, you have a very good chance of creating a baby by the end of that year. And that’s IF you use the condom correctly. Even if you stack up multiple prevention techniques, there is still that risk.

Oh, but that’s okay, because there’s always the abortion escape clause if you run the numbers and lose.

Every single person should have it indelibly ingrained in their sexual psyche that EVERY sexual encounter carries the risk of becoming a parent. No matter what you do.

Something tells me that while more education on proper condom use might help, it won’t fix the problem as much as people would like to think.

#52–if they’re used properly (again, comprehensive sex-ed is important), 98% is correct–but it’s per year, not per sexual encounter. Big difference.

And abstinence is only effective if it actually happens…

The sex-ed I remember most from public school was a junior-high teacher telling us that condoms weren’t all that effective. The message that the kids got out of it? Might as well not bother with condoms, then.

Anecdotally, I worked in a office had a small permanent staff and large teams that rotated through from other countries. Condoms were not easily available on the economy to those who didn’t speak the language.

Because the local staff was so small we all had additional responsibilities unrelated to our core job and my office mate was tasked with stocking the little vending machine in the restrooms that dispensed OTC medicines. After about a year of doing this a specific trend became evident; condom purchase rates went through the roof whenever we had Russians in town.

While we obviously didn’t have a control for overall sexual activity or maybe non-Russian condoms carry a certain cachet back home, who knows, it still suggests a cultural understanding of birth control. Yet Russia has an abortion rate in excess of 50%.

I have read that overall abortion rate does not correlate well to birth control availability. IMO the one factor that probably would correlate to the rate of unintended/unwanted pregnancy is alcohol consumption.

I see no funerals for 6 month spontaneous abortions, which I take to mean we do not considder them alive/individual, with their own spirit.

Faulty logic.

Just because we don’t have funerals when a fetus is miscarried doesn’t mean we don’t consider it alive.

A funeral is just a social tradition that we geberally have only after a baby is born and has a birth certificate. That doesn’t bind us to any particular conclusion concerning when a fetus becomes a person.

Was the spirit of Christ in his unborn body when he announced his impending birth to Nephi? The Book of Mormon seems to give us a hint on this matter.

I don’t think LDS folks have any clear guidance on when the spirit enters the body of the fetus. I think this is one of the reasons for the limited exceptions to the general no abortion rule.

MCQ,

Sure it can be used that way. It is a piece of evidence. You can argue about whether Christ is exceptional in this regard, but it is the only scriptural indication we seem to have on the issue, so tossing it aside seems foolish. Was there some need for Christ to be different in this regard? It seems that he passed through the veil of forgetfulness just like the rest of us. Do we have any evidence for him being an exception to rules in the womb? That he kicked once? Right after exiting the womb? Why then do we assume that he was exceptional immediately prior to birth?

For whatever reason the idea of having taken a breath is also very important in Mormonism. Perhaps this is a case of taking the term “breath of life” too literally. But this is another small data point pointing to the spirit entering at birth.

If we have other scriptural indications of when the veil of forgetfulness comes into play I would love to hear them. You can say the one I’ve cited doesn’t apply because you don’t want it to, but you can’t cite anything that directly invalidates it.

In any case late abortions are especially disturbing and one would hope they would only be considered in the most extraordinary of circumstances.

“I see no funerals for 6 month spontaneous abortions.”

Here (Midwest) families have private memorial services.

It’s perfectly possible to be baptized if you’ve had an abortion. You just have to jump through one more hoop in the baptismal interview process.

No idea what the church does to current members who have abortions, if anything. Since the church is perfectly okay with members aborting pregnancies due to rape or incest, and perfectly okay with abortions when the health of the mother is at risk, I can’t imagine the church does anything at all in those cases.

Discipline for abortion is left in the hands of local church authorities. Typically candidates for baptism who have had an abortion will need to speak to the MP. In almost all cases they will be allowed to be baptized. I do know of one case where a female nurse who participated for years in abortions was denied baptism by an MP and a seventy.

That’s what I meant by major criminal activity. Some gang members in my mission were trying to go straight and would occasionally ask to get baptized. If they had committed murder they never were able to be baptized.