So much for that comment of temple attending marijuana smokers at BCC; and so much for my one shot at drinking coffee. I’ll now resume my daily morning of coffee bread to start out the day.

My son is presently serving a mission. I am amazed at how his testimony of obedience has grown. He emails us each week and tells us of his love for the principle of obedience and how it not only blesses his life but the lives of those he teaches. His mission president sent a missionary handbook to all the parents of the missionaries serving under him so we would have an idea of the missionary rules and regulations. He asked us as parents to read it and then encourage our missionaries to be obedient.

There is an epidemic in the world of illegal drug abuse and perscription and over-the-counter drug abuse. I would suggest that we strongly follow the Word of Wisdom and the suggestions of the prophets and apostles. While it is okay to question things (even President Hinckley said this), obedience will bring down the powers of heaven.

#3,AGS- Agreed. Lots of people take all kinds of drugs. But how do you address the reality of physical illness, chronic pain VS the utopian wishful thinking that with faithfulness comes absolute, eternal health and vigor?

MCQ – If a state allows docs to prescribe an otherwise illegal drug for the benefit of a patient, how does the Church get to say that is breaking the WofW? In my mind I don’t see a difference between Oxycodone for chronic pain or using medical marijuana. I am a big proponent of using whatever works in hopeless cases of suffering. For everything else, for heaven’s sake – see a chiropractor, massage therapist, change your diet, lifestyle, etc. before getting on this stuff. It is ridiculously hard to get off of and doesn’t heal anything.

My daughter ended up longer on her mission because the Lord needed her to stay. :) (and she got lost in the changing of the mission presidency guard.)

What’s from the earth is of the greatest worth?

Mike:

Most states do not have immigration laws. Those laws are almost exclusively federal, so a missionary who is illegal is usually not breaking both state and federal laws, just federal laws.

In addition, the vast majority of missionaries who end up breaking immigration laws came to the country legally, but their visa expired before the end of their mission. These missionaries apply for a visa extension, but it often takes longer to get the extension than the missionary has left on his mission. This presents the missionary and the Church with a difficult choice: (1) Send the missionary home, even though there is only a few months left on his mission and the visa extension could come through at any time; or (2) Allow the missionary to stay and hope the extension comes through before the end of the mission.

Most often choice (2) is by far the most desirable for the missionary, and it allows the Church to let the missionary complete the mission that he was called to serve. Is this a violation of law? yes. Should we care? In my view, no. Does this make the Church hypocritical? No. People who are denied baptism becaise of WoW violations are not denied baptism becase they are violating federal law; they are denied baptism for violating a commandment of God.

In addition, the vast majority of missionaries who end up breaking immigration laws came to the country legally, but their visa expired before the end of their mission. These missionaries apply for a visa extension, but it often takes longer to get the extension than the missionary has left on his mission. This presents the missionary and the Church with a difficult choice: (1) Send the missionary home, even though there is only a few months left on his mission and the visa extension could come through at any time; or (2) Allow the missionary to stay and hope the extension comes through before the end of the mission.

Other than being completely wrong on both the facts and law, this is a pretty interesting statement about something that MCQ could not know anything about. How does he know the immigration status of the “vast majority” of missionaries who “end up breaking the immigration laws”? He sounds quite a bit like Howard Cosell saying “That’s exactly right, Dandy Don!” on a subject about which Cosell could not have had personal knowledge.

Additional answer to Mike:

There is no doctrine that says where you live is of any importance. There is doctrine that says that what you take into your body is. It is something of a red herring to point out that medicinal marijuana is legal in some states. As has been pointed out, the word of wisdom still covers stuff like marijuana in countries where it is illegal. One part of the word of wisdom has been applied to things that are harmful to your body. One subset of that is ‘illegal drugs’. Another subset is things that are legal but still not good for you (by LDS doctrine), i.e. coffee, alcohol, tobacco.

I do have sympathy with those who might benefit from medicinal marijuana. I don’t know nearly enough about it to make any firm judgements. I -personally- would choose to follow current doctrine. But I wouldn’t get too bent out of shape over a family member, friend, ward member who made the other choice. I will say that just because something helps the sick doesn’t necessarily make it ethical.

#10 bbell: There is lots of money to be made for both the growers and the sellers of medical marijuana.

There is a new formulation of Lortab recently announced – long-acting, without Tylenol – much like Oxycontin but with hydrocodone instead of oxycodone. The company predicts sales in the $500-800 MILLION range annually. Hydrocodone products alone account for $3.2 BILLION in sales in this country annually. Law enforcement people are very worried about this new product and its potential for addiction, etc., but it is going forward anyway. Why? It’s all about the money. So to say there is “lots of money to be made” in medical marijuana, there is MUCH MORE in other drugs that are far more harmful.

And being someone who literally prescribes thousands of narcotic pills each week for various patients with injury or post-surgery, I guarantee that these will be used by many members of my ward and other wards here in Utah. I have treated bishops and stake presidents and higher authorities who take narcotics on a daily basis without thinking twice about it, yet would be just as aghast as some of the comments here about prescribing marijuana for the same reason. And their physical tolerance for narcotics after just a few weeks is higher than the tolerance of any marijuana user.

Sorry. Off my soap box.

Mark B., other than being a complete asshole, you are a pretty interesting person. Instead of quoting Howard Cosell(?) please point out specifically where I was wrong on the facts and the law.

To respond to your inquiry, I was speaking from the experience as a misionary who served in my mission’s office and dealt with visa issues all the time and discussed those issues with my mission president and visiting GAs. My statements come from that expereince and from the context of the question I was answering, which concerned missionaries who are serving in the US and are in violation of immigration laws. Practically the only way that could happen is the way that I have outlined. If you have another answer, please feel free to state it. Or maybe you would rather quote another dead sportscaster?

Mike, the BoM says that people will be guided here from other lands by the spirit. I can think of no better way to transform those individuals as well as society than for them to serve missions in the lands the spirit of the Lord brought them to.

It’s up to the rest of us in this land to deliver those brought into this land by the spirit of the Lord from the chains of captivity. We can tighten those chains on them in the name of just and accuse them of breaking laws. Or we can be their advocate for laws which will deliver them from captivity and bondage.

Given the choice, I will always be in favor of being an advocate for just laws, rather than an accuser and an adversary who favors harsh laws which compel people to action contrary to what the spirit directs using the coercive laws of the state.

MCQ,

I never served in a mission office, so I have no idea how immigration issues work there.

However, I know that in the past ten years or so the church has started allowing undocumented immigrants within the U.S. to serve missions (taking care to keep them within the U.S. so they don’t run into visa problems). I don’t know when you served a mission, but if it was before the church allowed undocumented immigrants to serve missions, there’s a real possibility the numbers have changed. Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if at least half of the native Spanish-speaking missionaries currently serving in the U.S. who lived in the U.S. prior to their missions are undocumented immigrants.

I replied earlier, but my comment must be caught in some filter. I’ll try again. A few comments:

- My comment was never meant to cover the case of someone who gets a visa to come to the United States, which expires while he/she are on their mission. Instead, it concerns people who are illegal aliens who actually go on missions. In my filtered comment, I included a quote from the Salt Lake Tribune, which stated that not only are illegal aliens CALLED as missionaries, but there are whole wards and branches here in Salt Lake where there are bishops, stake president, etc. who are illegal aliens. So, in this case, the Church basically ignores completely a Federal law.

So, the argument above, that medical marijuana is grounds to keep someone from being baptized because it is against Federal law (even though legal in Oregon) is completely indefensible.

- So that leaves the WofW. The WofW doesn’t specifically say anything against medical marijuana, nor any other drug. We interpret it to mean avoiding harmful substances. I am a practicing surgeon here in Salt Lake City. I prescribe literally hundreds if not thousands of narcotic pills weekly for injury, post-surgery, or chronic pain. And because of demographics, the majority of these are LDS members. I treat bishops, stake presidents and higher church authorities who all take narcotics, sometimes on a daily basis.

Regarding “avoiding harmful substances” and all this – marijuana is much safer. It is physically impossible to overdose on marijuana, unlike narcotics, and has in fact never been reported. You would have to get ALL of the active ingredient in over 200 cigarettes simultaneously to even begin to come close to a lethal level. You do not become physically dependent on marijuana, unlike narcotics. Marijuana has few fewer side effects than narcotics. So, as long as we accept narcotics, anti-anxiety meds like Xanax, sleep-aids like Ambien, etc., the argument that medical marijuana is against the WofW because it is “harmful” also falls short.

- Regarding the comment about people selling medical marijuana with a profit motive – narcotics alone are a $5-10 billion business in the US ALONE, EVERY YEAR. Just hydrocodone products (ie. Lortab, Vicodin, Norco, etc) are a $3.2 BILLION business. And the newest announced version of hydrocodone is a time-released version WITHOUT Tylenol – similar to Oxycontin but with hydrocodone instead of oxycodone. Law enforcement agencies are already gearing up for the nightmare of increased addictions that this is going to cause. And why is this drug coming out – money. It is estimated to be a $500-800 million product for a single drug company. So as long as we, as LDS members, support the billion dollar narcotic industry, it is again somewhat hypocritical to use money as an argument against medical marijuana.

Where does this leave us? Medical marijuana is no more illegal than illegal immigration, which we accept. Medical marijuana is thousands of times safer than narcotics, which we accept. Medical marijuana is no more of a “harmful substance” and thereby against the WofW than many drugs which we accept. And we spend tens of billions on drugs in this country, which we accept.

All of the arguments above fall flat. And, at the end of the day, God ordained herbs for the use of man per the WofW. Certainly, marijuana falls much more in this category than all of the processed things we put in our bodies. If we could get the same effect from a more natural and safer method, what is the argument against it?

Hey Michelle, just out of curiosity, what was that doctor telling you to use marijuana for?

Sorry, Mike…they were in spam along with several others. Our spam filter is sick and depressed. Or something.

Mike S – What about the idea that marijuana is used as a social drug, similar to the other WoW banned things like drinking, coffee and smoking. Marijuana use for high school seniors is now higher than tobacco use.
I think most members think that abusing prescription drugs is against the word of wisdom. It is more difficult for a bishop to draw some sort of line to figure that out (also more difficult for a member to figure out that line), so perhaps they usually stay out of it.

PS. Except in the case of terminal cancer. For that special ring of hell, I’m smoking dope no matter what state I live in, whether my doctor can prescribe it or not. If Heavenly Father has a problem with that, He can discuss it with me in the next life. For anyone who would dare to judge me for not handling cancer in the proper way, they are automatically disinvited to my awesome party to be held after my husband satisfies his demand for a proper church funeral service.

#31: jks What about the idea that marijuana is used as a social drug, similar to the other WoW banned things like drinking, coffee and smoking. Marijuana use for high school seniors is now higher than tobacco use.

Interestingly, Utah has the HIGHEST RATE of non-prescription use of prescription drugs in the entire country (ie. using Lortab as a social drug). We’re doing the same thing as everyone else, but we feel “better” about doing it because it’s not the big 4: coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco.

Also, we have the highest rate of anti-depressant use in the country. The number one prescribed class of drugs by DMBA (the Church’s insurance arm – ie Church office building, distribution center, institute, etc.) is anti-depressants. The second most common is narcotics. So we’re taking A LOT of them.

And why is this? Interesting story. A couple of years ago, an anesthesiologist was talking to a patient before a surgery we were doing. She was taking several anti-anxiety medications, anti-depressants, sleep-aids, etc. (which is extremely common, BTW). He was only somewhat joking when he suggested that at the end of the day it would probably be healthier for her if she would just have a glass of wine instead of all these artificial substances. She was so offended by this, that she wrote him up in a formal complaint to the hospital. Ironically, he was right. We would honestly be much better off if we were to get rid of many of these things and just have a glass of wine. Even Joseph Smith drank wine the day he was killed, to “lift our spirits” – it wasn’t for sacrament or anything else, but for the same reason we now take all the medications we do.

When our daughter went for her pre-mission interviews with the Stake Pres., he was openly surprised she didn’t take any prescription meds. He was doubly shocked when she told him that no one in the family takes meds. for anything.

We were a bit offended by his reaction when she told us about the interview, wondering what he must assume about our family. It wasn’t until she came home from her mission and started telling us the untold stories (the ones the church doesn’t want missionaries to write home while serving) about her companions, like: The MTC companion who was a “cutter” and got sent home and the 3 companions in the field who were suicidal, on meds. and very emotionally unstable that we realized that the Stake President’s reaction had nothing to do with us personally. Jennifer only had one companion not on medication for emotional imbalance. We joked with her that her mission wasn’t about converting saints, it was about suicide watch for current ones.

And you, MCQ, are a Buddha.

But, since R-1 visas were, until 2008, issued in nearly every instance for an initial period of three years, and since then for an initial period of 30 months, it is unusual for missionaries who enter the U.S. on R-1 visas to overstay those visas during the course of their twenty-four-month missions. Of course, it’s possible that the consulate which issued the visa, or the CBP officer at the port of entry, made a mistake and issued a visa or granted an authorized stay with a shorter term. And mission leadership and missionaries, being concerned with other, weightier matters, may not notice until too late that a visa or authorized stay had expired.

If you’re interested, here’s an excerpt from a USCIS statement on R-1 (Religious Worker) Visas published in November 2008:

USCIS is amending the standard initial period of stay for nonimmigrant religious workers from three years to up to 30 months. The period of stay granted is always based on the petitioner’s need for the alien’s services. The revision gives the agency the opportunity to review, at an earlier time, whether the terms of the R-1 visa have been met. (Requests for one potential extension of an additional 30 months will be considered.) [Emphasis added]

And, as Mike S. said (at least twice–I feel like Yossarian: I see everything twice), the issue he had raised concerns young men and women who are called as missionaries while living in the U.S. in unlawful status. Perhaps there were none in your mission, if you served before November 2005. Before then, the church would have been susceptible to prosecution for “transporting” or “harboring” illegal aliens if such young men or women had been called as full-time missionaries. An amendment to Section 274 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, adding paragraph (a)(1)(C), effective November 10, 2005, opened the way for calling illegal aliens as full-time missionaries.

It seems that the Church views a violation of the immigration laws as simply malum prohibitum, whereas a violation of the Word of Wisdom as malum in se.

LiZ,

Here is the quote from the current handbook 2:

The Church does not normally encourage cremation. However, if the body of an endowed member is being cremated, it should be dressed in temple clothing if possible. For information about dedicating the place where the ashes are kept.

“Does not normally encourage” is very different from “discourage.”

Mark B., I served in the 80s, so things have obviously changed since then. In my mission it was quite common for foreign missionaries to have their visa expire before the end of their mission. My companion, who was a Maori from New Zealand, was one of these. Thanks for the updated info.

It seems that the Church views a violation of the immigration laws as simply malum prohibitum, whereas a violation of the Word of Wisdom as malum in se.

I was going to say that exact thing, and I believe that is the Church’s view.

MCQ – Being a woman, I only had access to the handbook that women are allowed. What you quoted was not in the version I had. (It was the updated manual, though.) Since I am going to have my ashes scattered, I guess they can bless the air that will carry me away.

When my husband served his mission to Mexico in the ’80′s the common law marriage issue was a repeated problem. The missionaries lost a lot of excited potential converts because they weren’t legally married even though they had been together for 20+ years and had children and grandchildren. It was very sad.

Re: It seems that the Church views a violation of the immigration laws as simply malum prohibitum, whereas a violation of the Word of Wisdom as malum in se.

So, I had to look up these up to see what they meant. I actually disagree. WofW is malum prohibitum – merely because of statute and not wrong in and of itself. Take wine, for example. In today’s church, we hear talks about “not a drop” and are led to believe that drinking wine is evil in and of itself. However, this is a very recent development. Christ drank wine. Christ implemented the use of wine in His sacrament. The Nephites had wine. Joseph Smith drank wine. Wine was used freely in some of the early temples. The prophet and apostles used wine for their weekly sacrament meeting in the temple into the 1900′s until close to the time of Prohibition. I would assume that all of these people ultimately made it back to the Celestial Kingdom (and if not them, certainly there is no hope for me). So, if wine was malum in se, then none of these people would have made it. In today’s Church, wine is against the WofW merely because recent leaders have declared it to be so.

And if we are REALLY talking about things in the WofW for HEALTH REASONS (ie. no harmful drugs, etc), we tend to ignore the elephant in the room. Obesity is much more unhealthy than a glass of wine each night, or a cup of tea each morning, or even smoking marijuana on weekends. Obesity directly costs the US over $150 BILLION a year in increased medical costs – or enough to solve the entire uninsured population problem. It causes a myriad medical problems, including diabetes, hypertension, stroke, etc. In my profession, I replace knees. If someone is normal weight, the chance of a knee replacement by around age 70 is less than 20%. If someone is obese, it’s over 80%. It keeps me in business, but it is completely preventable.

Now, granted there are people who are obese for medical reasons, but it is largely lifestyle choices. Check out the following map from the CDC – it is staggering. ( http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.HTML ) Without any real change in our country’s genetics (ie. someone is “big boned” or whatever), we have become an OBESE country.

So, if we really and truly cared about health and caring for our bodies as a part of living the WofW, we wouldn’t worry so much about that glass of wine and would start calculating someone’s BMI as a part of the temple recommend interview. Obviously that will never happen, but if does point out the fallacy of saying something is “against the WofW” even if it is not listed there, merely because it is “unhealthy”.

“you, Mcq, are a Budha” Love it. No clue what you’re saying, but I’m going to plagarize it again and again. (It will probably go over better than “bite me.”)

Mike, Lortab, Vicodin and Hydrocodone didn’t touch my pain. Tramadol is okay, but I’m limited in the dose because of an interaction with another drug. I really think the government should have let the consumer decide the risk. Lortab, etc. are terrible drugs. I didn’t feel any kind of high when I was trying them out, but many people become hooked on them. Our school superintendent became hooked on Lortab (I can’t remember if he was a bishop at the time, but he had been a bishop) to the point that he began to break the law to get it. He was caught. A big front page scandal. I felt so bad for him, it all started with serious pain and surgery.

I am one who feels the Word of Wisdom is relative. I don’t drink alcohol or coffee or smoke cigarettes, nor do I endorse them. But I am not going to condemn those who do. Because forget obesity, there are so many teetotaling upright “saints” who are really awful people.

That’s saying a lot as the child of alcoholics. My father died partly of his alcoholism at the age of 48 and made our lives hell much of the time. I’m a believer in how substance abuse can ruin lives.

But I do not think the Lord gave us the Word of Wisdom to use as a club on others.

I must add, too, Mike, you seem quite reasonable for an orthopedic surgeon. I’m a bigot–I believe that most orthopedic surgeons (as well as neurologists, psychiatrists and urologists) are assholes. And that most pediatricians and gynecologists are wonderful. What I do is when I go to a new doctor (all the time) I ask “what made you decide to be…whatever they are?” If they answer the question in an open and friendly manner, I know we’ll work together. If they fudge or act insulted or don’t answer, well, I know I’ve wasted my co-pay.

I don’t care if they’ve just invented a cure for cancer. I’m a person and I expect them to be as well.

Back to the subject: Heavenly Father’s favorite drugs. There’s a story in the Big Book of AA about a doctor who struggles with and overcomes his dependency on pills as he achieves sobriety. He writes about how he doesn’t feel he can turn his life over to God and submit to His will while depending on a pill to make him feel better. I see the truth in that and feel guilty when I take my anti-depressant or pain medication.

What I’ve done lately—and I’m not sure I’m right—-is when I pray in the morning, especially on a bad day, when the very soles of my feet feel bruised, I ask the Lord to magnify the effect of the medication. To bless it’s path in my body. Honestly, I’ve felt the blessing from that. I realize we can’t put everything on God, but the earth has enough and to spare and I believe that most of what we find on earth was put here by God for us. The fact that some people fry their brains on marijuana and waste years in a stoned haze doesn’t negate the benefits to others.

If I ever get cancer, or one of my loved ones get cancer, I’ll come back to this post and report my findings :).

Stephen M:

The Church accepts other illegal things as discussed above, such as illegal immigration. So that’s NOT really the point.

I also agree with Mike that obesity is very dangerous, but I have seen a lot of people ruin their lives with marijuana.

Stephen and MCQ – We aren’t talking about illegal marijuana use. We are talking about bona fide, “my doctor wrote a perscription for it” use so who’s business is it besides mine?

To throw a monkeywrench into the discussion:

My newly-returned missionary daughter and her old companions just informed me that the Portland, OR mission DOES baptize converts who use medical marijuana. They just have to have extra interviews with the mission pres and etc. to verified the medical neccesity. So now I am throughly confused. The handbook says no, but in reality it is handled on a case by case basis. This is turning into just as big a mess as illegal immigration laws. (And I am annoyed my kid doesn’t read my posts. What kind of family allegience is that? But then again, my husband just pointed out Jennifer is only reading church approved internet sites. Baby steps, I guess.)

Cocaine is actually legal. It is often used in ENT surgery, among other things. The use of it without a prescription is illegal, like other drugs.

Regarding medical marijuana re: extracted THC (ie. synthetic marijuana) – I don’t know how the effects compare as I’ve never experienced either. I would expect them to be different, however. Like most natural herbs, marijuana has dozens of compounds which all likely slightly modify the effect somewhat.

It’s the same with other things. We avoid tea, which has a whole range of compounds in it because it’s “not healthy”, although many populations which drink a fair amount of tea live longer and healthier than us. Yet we extract the caffeine from tea and coffee, mix it with other artificial substances in to Coke and Diet Coke and Pepsi, etc., and drink it by the gallon here in Utah (up to and including leaders such as President McKay and President Monson).

I take my caffeine in pill form now. Much cheaper than soda. And I no longer have to take Prilosec and other antacids to offset the acid in all that Diet Coke. Plus it allowed me to cut my caffeine intake in half.

1 tablet = 200 mg of caffeine. 1 can of Diet Coke = 50 mg caffeine.

I cut tablets into quarters to make a “dose”. I’m now down to 300 mg/day.

1/4 tablet at the beginning of sac meeting keeps me awake.

———————————–

Rumor mill has it that GA’s are worried about lds obesity. Note the health related articles inthe ensign over the last few years. Even one about how bad energy drinks ( and caffeine) are. Seating in the temples, and temple clothes have been modified for the super-obese.

@annegb (#47)

It’s from an old Buddhist parable, one version of which is here: http://www.ronrolheiser.com/columnarchive/?id=622

Both my mother and mother in law took hemp seed oil for medicinal. My mother had horrible pain that sprung out of nowhere which made it hard for her to walk. In fact she took sick leave for over six months. My mother in law had terminal cancer and chemo wasn’t working. While it was a moral dilemma for me to accept this option my husband consented to it immediately. He’s an analytical chemist and he explained to me that active in hemp seed oil doesn’t make a person high. Having had time to research and think about this some more over the years I’ve come to realize that I wouldnt readily look bad at someone who opted for that solution. I also just wanna say that I love coke.

Stephen and MCQ – We aren’t talking about illegal marijuana use. We are talking about bona fide, “my doctor wrote a perscription for it” use so who’s business is it besides mine?

Except it remains a federal felony.

Anyway, for the terminal, I support whatever works, including grail, as they use in England.

Just a minor correction: It isn’t just “liberal” states that allow medical marijuana; Montana, quite conservative but with a libertarian bent, also allows medical marijuana. The law was intended to help people with certain chronic diseases, but it has, unfortunately, been much abused.

I’ve read most of the posts. I didn’t see anything regarding tincture. Cannabis is an herb, plain and simple. All herbal tinctures are made the same. I believe that like all other herbs, it is meant to be ingested, not inhaled. Do we smoke any other herbs?

I’ve made and used tinctures of other legal herbal varieties with great success. You can use vegetable glycerine to extract the beneficial nutrients of all herbs.