No. Bill does not have a duty to report her to the bishop. Nobody has a duty to report anything to the bishop… Except maybe if you know the Ward Clerk is Embezzling Tithing.
That being said, Why kill it? Call your visiting teachers for help, carry it to term and then if you still don’t think you can handle two kids, place the second for adoption.

Considering that it is a Husband and wife situation and the husband is against an abortion I don’t think he would be thrilled about putting his child up for adoption either.

At this point Frankly IMHO She needs to just have the baby and ask for help from Family, Friends, VT’s, Relief Society President, whoever she can ask. I’ve known many younger Sisters in church who have stuggled with basicly back to back babies. I’ve known two sisters who had abortions in their younger years and they both regret it now. If she doesnt feel that she can handle more there are many ways of birth control. There is no shame in admitting you cant handle it and asking for help. As a LDS I personally can’t fathom not choosing life. If she were to do it and the husband did divorce her the reason why would come out and both sides of the family would probably be upset at her…. And She would probably end up in the Bishops office cause he would find out. Thats just how things seem to always work out.

I know a couple of young LDS women who have had abortions (not the one I talked about earlier, I’m assuming that wasn’t a pregnancy). There is agony in their eyes when they talk about them, but also a feeling of necessity. Oh, not necessity—desperation, maybe, in their choice.

We can back each other and ourselves into some pretty awful corners as members of God’s church. My experience has been that when I’m cornered, it’s time to surrender my will to God’s and let Him handle the fallout. And He does! Really!

Hmmm, What other members do really isn’t our business is it? They have their free agency. Now if what they are doing is illegal, such as stealing or sexual abusing someone I’d go to the Police but breaking the word of wisdom…. Well that’s between them Heavenly Father and the Bishop. I hate to say it but there are people who lie in their temple recommend interviews. I once asked a Bishop what would happen to someone he knew was lying and he said “nothing” if the person lies to get the recommend interview then uses that recommend to attend the temple it’s between them and God.

My two cents… I totally recognize that others may not agree.

Does Bill have a priesthood duty to report Kathy’s abortion (if she has one) to the bishop?

A Priesthood duty? No. Should he tell the bishop, yes. I think a non-priesthood holder should tell the bishop as well. (Mom, sister, etc.) Any member who believes the stance of the Church on this topic should feel compelled to.

Is Kathy at risk of excommunication if she has an abortion?

Absolutely. I don’t know that she is guaranteed to be ex’ed. But I cannot imagine that excommunication as a disciplinary result would be on the table for an abortion by a Temple Recommend holding member.

If Bill does have to tell, what other things does he have to talk about? Word of Wisdom? Wearing bikinis?

Only things that rise to the level of potential Church discipline. So no to reporting WoW, modesty, swearing, gossiping, R rated movies, etc. Yes to serious crimes (not speeding tickets, yes to assault), infidelity, abuse, porn (particularly repeated use and/or the more deviant examples), etc.

Does Kathy have a duty to report any actions of her husband?

Sure she does. At the same level of serious.

All that said, once the information has been passed to the bishop, that’s the limit of their responsibility. They may take further actions of their own in reaction to whatever original action was committed. i.e. A woman who’s husband is beating her should tell the bishop and get out asap. Once she’s told the bishop, she has no further obligation to the Church disciplinary process. She certainly has a continued responsibility to herself. Likewise, I would assume that if a woman cheated on her spouse and he found out, I would fully expect him to tell the bishop. And I would understand if he kicked her out of the house. I would also understand if he felt he should work it out. Way too many variables.

But just my two cents on the original story, I get that she feels overwhelmed. But I know WAY too many couples who dealt with twins (or triplets) or “Catholic twins” to feel like the challenge is anywhere near the level to allow abortion to enter the discussion on any kind of moral footing. I still have vivid memories of the when my wife and I learned our oldest was disabled and what that meant. My wife knew she couldn’t “care for him”. She was wrong. It was tough (for both of us) but we did it. He’s looking at colleges and considering his career. A moment of darkness is about the worst possible moment to make lasting decisions like the one being discussed here.

I agree with you, Mcq, excepting this: ” The only reason to tell the bishop about someone else’s behavior is if you think they need help and you can’t help them yourself but the bishop could.” An individual agonizing over a spouse’s choice would be totally justified in discussing this with the bishop, not to help the “sinner” but for moral support. That kind of sounds like one is “telling on them” but I have often turned to my bishop when my life is in upheaval. In that case, if it gets somebody else in trouble, oh well.

Your statement about your current bishop (and others)? Right on. I’m reading “Why I Stay” right now. LOVE THIS BOOK, love it. And one point I’m seeing over and over is: “our leaders are human, hello!”

I wish I stayed out of it. I don’t tell the bishop. I confront the person head on with “what the hell are you thinkin’?” It usually doesn’t end well, trying to tell other people how to live their lives.

As the the abortion part of the story. Having “Irish twins” is not in my view grounds for considering an abortion. Parents have survived Irish twins before and they will again.

Excommunication would be on the table but not guaranteed if Kathy went forward. If a woman in this circumstance had an abortion and her husband was opposed I would see that as grounds for a divorce.

If Bill was say beating Kathy or abusing the kids in a serious manner she should certainly tell the Bishop and the police. You could argue that she has a moral obligation to do so.

In the situation NH laid out above with the hypothetical abortion, this issue would deeply affect both individuals in the marriage. I don’t see it as a “Priesthood responsibility,” I see it as a spousal responsibility.

My younger sister was married to a man who developed an addiction to pornography that ultimately led to the demise of their marriage. In the two years that she tried to deal with his addiction without leaving, she never once told the Bishop about it. However, she did–in those two years–have a recommend interview. When a Bishop asks, “Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?” I think this is a great opening to discuss marital issues even if you are not the perpetrator.

If two people are bound together for eternity, the actions of one are going to affect the other. When moral sins are in question, it is appropriate to discuss them with your Bishop. This should not be an effort to have your spouse punished, but an effort to reconcile personal and marital conflict. Good Bishops will listen, counsel, and refer to outside assistance where appropriate. Church-related punishment shouldn’t be the primary concern. Saving a marriage and mitigating emotional injury should.

#17 – MCQ: “In a situation of abuse you should not go to the bishop. You should go directly to the police.”

I agree 100%. My dad was a custodian for the Church for many years. In cleaning the local Stake Center, he happened upon a journal outlining sexual abuse that a local church member was doing to his daughters (why the guy was keeping it at the church, I have NO idea!). Rather than go to local leaders, my dad immediately called the police and had them take the journal away and then address the issue. He did, also, call the Stake President after the police showed up, but the SP was ticked that he wasn’t the first one to know. Of course, the abuser was in police custody long before the Church could take any action against him (which was, appropriately, excommunication). But the local SP seemed to think my dad should have let the Church address it first. Absolutely insane!

If my husband took a swing at me or started beating our kids (neither of which he would do), I’d be on the phone with the cops, not my Home Teacher!

No actual situation, at least to my knowledge. I hope it’s not an actual situation, that would suck.

I think it’s all programmed into the virtual reality machines that we’re all hooked up to.

NH, what triggered your interest in this discussion if it’s not an actual situation? There are several issues covered here, marital discord, abortion, “duty”—-which is the one that is most important to you?

Oh, my answer is that whatever Kathy does Bill should try to be supportive of it. Assuming of course that Bill is like most husbands and spends the majority of his time at work leaving Kathy to deal with the kid(s). If she says she can’t handle it, she can’t handle it. RS and VT only go so far as making meals, rarely do you find a ward that will pitch in and take care of your kids every day so you can take care of yourself.

The subject isn’t really all that important to me, I find the responses fascinating.

Decisions like this should be made together, ideally, but the problem is that the woman bears the entire burden of the pregnancy, at least physically. Because of that, a woman might feel that her husband should be supportive of whatever she decides about having another baby. And if they were talking about it pre-pregnancy, that might be how it would go, because last I checked, it was not very likely that a husband could force his wife to get pregnant.

But in this scenario, the pregnancy is already a fact. So asking the husband to be supportive of whatever the wife decides about a pregnancy that is already under way is probably asking too much. Ultimately, from a legal standpoint, if she decides to have an abortion, there’s nothing he can do to prevent it. But if he’s a committed Mormon, he’s unlikely to be supportive of that.

I would also take issue with this: “If she says she can’t handle it, she can’t handle it.”

Really? Are you saying that we all are always the final arbiters of what is best for us? Because I haven’t found that to be the case.

At times, we all feel like we can’t handle some of the things that life presents us with. My experience is that we can usually handle a lot more than we think, and some of the things we feel most inadequate to handle are the things we end up deriving the most benefit from in the end. That’s the lesson of sections 121 and 122 isn’t it?

Well I guess I don’t happen to live in the boundries of an average ward nor thankfully have I for the last 6 years. Praise the Lord!!! We help one another all the person has to do is ask. Also I only know of about 3 true stay at home moms where thats all they do. Most here are moms that stay at home but have an at home business that they do to help support the family. There are a few stay at home dads here too. Frankly Kathy sounds like she needs to have faith. Maybe even some therapy herself. In Church today I was looking around at the different families and most had 3 to 5 kids the few that had fewer were just getting started. (the Bishop has 10!!) Funny thing we all love little ones and as soon as a mom comes in with a baby someone a YW, a Grandma, or someone like me who won’t be blessed with a baby in this life is there to hold/cuddle that little one all through Sacrament. Now I’m sure that at some point one or more of those sisters questioned if they could handle yet another child or not but in the end they obviously are managing fine and like I stated earlier all they have to do is ask.

Now back to the issue of Bill supporting his wife in “her” decision. Yes he should be supportive of her right to say no, not right now… etc. pre pregnancy however that child within her is half his and he has every right to strongly disagree! I don’t know of any good Christian husband who would just sit back and let his wife abort their child be he LDS or Baptist etc. There are just lines that one shouldn’t cross unless both agree. I don’t know where you’re from but most marriages DON’T survive infidelity. Also this is actually worse than being unfaithful this is taking a life of a helpless child.

Kathy had a choice prepregnancy she could have prevented it but now…..

In my neighborhood of 32 families (I’ll cover the south part, it’s representative) in southern Utah, 4 are retired couples and 5 are single, leaving 23 for purposes of this discussion. Of those 23, four women do not work outside the home (I am one of them). One of those four is like I am, with all her children grown and gone; the other two are mothers of small children. That family where the father is gone at work all day leaving the mother at home barely exists and I can guarantee those two mothers are the envy of the others who do work.

A week of meals after a baby born is a lot of meals. I can see your friends or family helping if there’s a solid need, such as how everyone pitched in for a year to help a mother of a child with Down’s Syndrome. Daily driver? Why would Kathy need a daily driver? Wards differ, of course, but when there’s a true need as opposed to an unexpected pregnancy, most of them step up. My ward members drove a diabetic woman 100 miles to have dialysis three times a week for years.

Sooner or later, Kathy is going to have to live her own life. The purpose of the church isn’t to take care of a person’s every need. I was pretty popular when I had Sarah but they brought meals for a week. I had three other kids.

Marriages don’t “survive infidelity all the time” (where are you getting your statistics?). Infidelity, like abortion, are life-changing experiences. I repeat, life changing. Six months isn’t going to heal that breach of trust. Six months is an instant in a lifetime.

Delia’s right, it’s Bill’s baby, too. Your scenario and position blatantly ignores his feelings. I guess it would be different if Kathy and Bill were 19, atheist and not eternally committed to one another. That’s the problem with fake scenarios. A discussion cannot stand on hypotheticals because the possibilities are endless.

There are possible fake scenarios when I might agree with you, to a point. But as it’s presented, there’s nothing solid to agree with other than a young couple who wasn’t careful as they should have been; and a young woman who is one dimensional as a concept, so she comes off as childish, self-absorbed and insensitive to her husband.

Again, that’s the problem with make-believe. Especially make-believe about a subject as gut-wrenching as this. Believe me, the real people I know who’ve gotten an abortion will never forget it. And…..here’s the rub—-they didn’t know it was going to stay with them as it has. Maybe they were young, like Kathy, the pregnancy was inconvenient and it seemed like a sensible decision. Afterward, not so much.

Interesting topic.

Being a stay at home mother I have, more than once, found myself hating my job. It’s the same crap everyday. Sometimes, it’s litereally crap… poopy diapers, puke, laundry, housework, cleaning up after a husband that (right now is really bugging me, but it’s only because it’s been a really long week), doing the bills, the yardwork (because husband sometimes works out of town)and it is so extremely overwhelming I want to crawl into a corner suck my thumb and stare off into the distance. Sometimes I hate it… really, really… I can understand her feeling overwhelmed and not wanting to make another child, but this day and age there are so many ways she can avoid pregnancy. In my situation I would have loved more help and lots of it. Sometimes i got it and sometimes I didn’t and you know what? I survived and I came to this conclusion not everyone will be there for you all of the time, which is why we have trials, which is why we have the Lord, and the atonement.

Back to baby making…Years ago I heard Dr Laura (yes I listened to her) say something that was so profound to me. She said on air that it was her belief that If one spouse says no to having a baby then it’s no, period. I was raised with the belief that I had to single handly mutliply and replinsh the earth by myself. My husband.. no so much. He wanted two kids, I wanted 6, we have 4. I want the idea of having another baby… he doesn’t. He wants to be done and so it is.

Kathy needs help, Bill needs help.. that is not a good marriage.

And, your husband needs the Joseph in the bible vs Nephi in the book of mormon talk. No one likes a boaster, and to tattle to the bishop because you saw someone drinking whiskey, buying whiskey, holding a whiskey bottle is kind of lame. Hell, I have my own scarlett letter to hold/hide I can’t worry about someone else drinking whiskey. That being said, I don’t know your husband or you.. so I’m making a judgement.

Kramer, you make good points. My thoughts went to cases of post partum depression. Andrea Yates probably shouldn’t have had children. For her own sake, her physical and emotional makeup made mothering too much for her to handle.

Frankly, I think the world would have been a better place if I’d never had children.

I guess we got off the subject a bit. Do we have a duty to report our spouse’s sin to the bishop? My answer is no. But sometimes we should report behaviors to him. Instances of abuse that we know about (as opposed to have heard about) should be reported.

But the bishop isn’t only a person we report to, he’s a person we turn to when our lives are in turmoil. There’s a difference between a Bill who has no depth or heart and is insensitive (possibly dictatorial) to his wife and a Bill who is at the end of his rope and agonizing over his wife’s decision to abort his child.

I don’t go to my bishops anymore because they’re children, but I used to. And I needed that guidance and strength. Now I have a therapist for that.

Back to reporting to the bishop–and like I said, I wondered about this. Here in southern Utah, the majority of us are Mormons who are too acquainted with each others’ foibles, a la small town living. Barring abuse, I’ve never heard of anyone reporting others to the bishop. But maybe it’s different in other states. Sometimes it sounds like members in other states are under more of a burden of rigidly obeying the letter of the law.

Oh, I forgot. My neighbor reported my blogging to the bishop.

“Oh, I forgot. My neighbor reported my blogging to the bishop.”

Some sins you just can’t let pass.

Let’s not talk about killing a baby. We are not a religion that says abortion is the same as murder, and we don’t take a hard line stance that life begins at conception. No one is talking about killing a baby here.

I think the church can handle criticism just fine. It’s the members that get all bent out of shape over it.

“And with each new realization, I’m less inclined to point out the foibles and sins of others.”

Is your first name Dieter?

As I listened to that talk I can remember immediately thinking of the names of several people that I thought really needed to hear it. Then I realized that if I was thinking that, then more than likely his talk was directed at me.

It’s a great talk Annegb. You especially need to read it. ;)

I just realized I said the world would be a better place if I’d never had children. I should explain. I mean THEIR world, possibly YOUR world. Not mine.

I’m going to go play that talk. I recorded conference.

Huh?

Wow, that was kind of poetic. I like that. I don’t think we’re faux, though (you’ve just proven that). Kind of scathing about the bloggernacle, though, of which you’re a part. I unapologetically appoint myself as a mediator of right.

What you failed to include in your description is “angst-ridden individuals struggling with arrogance, ego, ambivalence and an inferiority complex.” Sort of like alcoholics. That CS Lewis quote I included in my other post about finding a friend “I thought I was the only one!” is what I love about the bloggernacle. I was pretty lonely for a long time in my beloved home ward. I had friends, but not many I could say “we were racists” to without risking the friendship. Here, I can say “bite me” or be called a wing nut (love it, love it) and we’re still friends. For the most part.

I completely agree with your first sentence. That’s what I’ve been trying to say. “Kathy has a bigger problem.” You hit the nail on the head. I suspect newly housewife will write a completely different post on the subject in 25 years. I had all the answers when I was 22 and my kids were little. Boy, did that go to hell.