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I enjoyed your excellent consciousness raising article and links about how women are portrayed, trained and viewed in a sexualized society. The problem with porn for men is it’s addictive and it teaches men disconnected objectified sex rather than romantic connected lovemaking. The church teaches avoidance but it’s also possible to work your way through porn to the point that you are no longer addicted and can take it or leave it, of course this takes a long time. I object to your use of the word trigger as it implies your husband is a victim, he isn’t. |
I’m sorry, but the insane amount of slut-shaming in this post is just reprehensible. Your husband’s addiction is one hundred percent HIS problem, and the state of dress of the women at Disneyland has nothing to do with it, and I’m offended that you would equate the two. Our hyper-sexualization of our society needs to stop – but covering up bodies only fetishizes them, it doesn’t stop objectification. We all need to move on from this nonsense. |
Slut-shaming? Pretty sure that’s an oxymoron. I’m offended that you’re offended. Because it means that you didn’t read the post carefully. There’s a difference between covering up your butt and boobs and wearing an abiyah. Very brave post, Sunshine. I admire and respect your honesty. I ran into an old friend at church a few years ago–she and her husband had moved back in the 80′s and were visiting. They were extremely staunch when in our ward and held callings in presidencies. Both came from generations of Mormon family. However you say that grammatically. I said “I have so much to tell you” and she said “so do I” and spilled her guts about her husband’s addiction to porn which have now led to him being HIV positive. I was absolutely floored. About ten years ago, a patriarch in our town was released because of an addiction to porn which was made very public when his granddaughter spray painted the side of his house. I could go on and on. These are my peers, people my age–in their 60′s. Who spent their lives actively serving in the church and are still active (after periods of repentance) today. What I’ve learned about porn addictions is that many teenage Mormon boys become entranced and then can’t stop themselves as adults. I wonder if this has something to do with the stringently chaste standards we have. I’m not faulting that, I believe in it, but it’s kind of like how the preacher’s kids are a problem. It’s Satan at his best. It then stunts men in their sexual relationships with their wives. I kind of agree with you, Howard, about the victim part. And I didn’t get that impression from Sunshine. But in another way, we are all subject to our vices. Thinking of my hero, CS Lewis, his Screwtape knew exactly how to “get” his subjects and enslave them. It’s all the more reason we should pray always and ask for the Lord to be with us every second of every day. Because there but for the grace of God go I. |
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree that this is a problem that both men and women are perpetuating. It isn’t a problem to blame just women for or blame just men for. I think this is why I feel a little unsatitisfied whenever I read a post about the subject because it is such a huge problem with many causes and not just one solution. |
I’ve given up on the idea of never showing cleavage. Such an idea belongs with my skinny-boobed friends. I and my G-H (depending on the day, and whether or not the babe has eaten) cups will be showing the frontal butt crack no matter what I wear. Though I do try my hardest to keep it at a minimum. |
jks, I agree. It’s so hard to categorize or pin down that I feel discouraged about a solution. |
I think the term slut-shaming as it was used here was attention getting descriptive hyperbole, while they were apparently scantily dressed I doubt many of them were actually sluts. I read this part to be Sunshine bravely sharing her personal thoughts which I appreciated and enjoyed, but Braeden makes a good point not only does covering up bodies fetishize them so does avoiding looking at them! Now I know this is not a popular position, the church teaches avoidance but avoidance fetishizes too at least to a point, so please hear me out. I was born with a strong drive and I live in southern California so I see scantily dressed females all the time, I just walked by two in bikinis. Shall I ware blinders? No long ago I learned to get a grip, take responsibility for myself and grow up. Women need to grow up too. Commitments like marriage and temple vows bring a level of security but nothing like the security of being mentally and emotionally connected with and in love with your partner. When the two of you come together you should be able to tell in an instant that the connection is there or it is not there and if it IS there nothing else matters, it simply doesn’t matter who’s skirt he just glanced up or blouse he glanced down. Who cares? But, if it isn’t there you both have a very significant problem and it doesn’t have anything to do with p0rn or how other women dress. |
Yes. Yes, you shall wear blinders. Also my husband should. And Sunshine’s husband. Right on both things—both using dramatic artistic hyperbole. Or however the big words go together. On the other hand, a woman wearing a mini-skirt and tight t-shirt with lots of cleavage probably doesn’t feel very ashamed. She knows exactly what she’s doing. I bet I could start a blinders company and sell them to wives and make lots of money. The really funny thing about that is (MOST) men don’t notice if their wives are looking, or even care. Men just think they’re beautiful, no matter what. My husband thinks that, in my eyes, all other men pale in comparison. Not a jealous, suspicious bone in his body. About : “when the two of you come together….etc” I don’t think that’s true. It’s an unrealistic “should” because there are ebbs and flows in every relationship and sometimes you just don’t feel that connection. That quote by CS Lewis about being in love means you want the very best for that person (paraphrasing) is really pretty cool in that vein. |
Yes there are ebbs and flows and sometimes you do not feel that connection but if you’re paying attention this is a reminder to reconnect. |
And when I start my blinders business, I’m going to say “it was all Howard’s idea.” |
Howard, I agree with your #1. He isn’t the victim. I didn’t address his thoughts because it’s such a delicate thing. He is the master of himself, as am I. Braeden, I’m sorry you didn’t understand the meaning of my post. I had very angry thoughts against ‘those’ women. I recognize that and am working through my own issues on the matter. NH, cleavage while nursing (or even being a full figured woman) is not what made me upset. It will happen and there is no way, unless wearing a burka, that you could avoid it. georgiabelle, thanks for sharing. annegb… exactly! |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4-1xCf3I7U&feature=relmfu for the second half of the 4 lecture. |
I lost my 1st Husband to Porn…. He had went from adult porn to kiddie porn and well I guess I was weak I told him to get help or it was over (mind you we had already been to the Bishop and a LDS therapist) The EX insisted he didnt have a problem and his family blamed me for not “pleasing” him…. Anyway I know the pain all too well. I Thank you Sunshine for writing the post. I remarried to a faithful Priesthood holder. I worry about my Step Children as the would is worse than it was back when. I pray that they will be able to navigate through the worldly and stay on the correct path. I agree both genders are at fault… |
Thank you Braeden! There was so much slut shaming in this post it made me feel sick. Just because a person dresses in a way you don’t approve, doesn’t make them a “tramp” or a “whore.” |
Thanks for the honest post. It’s good to hear your feelings about this difficult subject, and I’m glad you included your husband in formulating your ideas. I understand your anger, and I agree to an extent with it, but I also know that all of these people you are angry at are also our brothers and sisters. If we are going to come up with any solutions to these issues we are going to have to get past our anger and work together in love and friendship. We all have weaknesses and problems to overcome. Every single one of us. So think about that when you want to villify people or scream at them about what they are doing. Much better to have pity and compassion and think how you might help them, including your husband, and how he can help you with the things that you need to work on. Being needed, loved and respected is a trigger too. It triggers very good things. |
Delia, don’t think for one moment you were weak. If my husband was addicted to kiddie porn I would be out too, and shame on your husbands family for making you feel less than you are. My situation, I’m finding, is unique. My husbands addiction is not near as severe as others. I have two very close friends who’s husbands… well it’s bad. I’m sorry for your pain. Church HQ, I know, and I was hoping that in my post you would see that at first I felt exceptionally angry, and then I began to realize it’s not one genders fault. It’s all of us… together. |
Sunshine the saying time heals all wounds I think applies to my situation. While at the time I was crushed. It was oh so difficult to let go of my temple marriage. I made it through and am better now for that experience. My dear Husband now well as I said I married a faithful priesthood holder… And he will forever be faithful. (sigh) |
shame on your husbands family for making you feel less than you are Amen. I was hoping that in my post you would see that at first I felt exceptionally angry, and then I began to realize it’s not one genders fault. It’s all of us… together. Too bad more people did not read your post all the way through to the end. |
I understand that you are angry, and you seem to at least somewhat acknowledge that your anger comes from some insecurities, but I find the way you talk about those other women quite appalling. These women are not props in your life, they are people. They are people who do not believe what you do about modesty, and they are people who own their own bodies and are free to reveal or hide what they want of their bodies. They do not believe that they are at all cheapened by not following your prescribed value of modesty. They are choosing how they dress. They are not sluts, or tramps, or whores. You know nothing of their sexual activity or promiscuity. The judgment you fling towards others that you know nothing about is upsetting. I understand you are having a hard time with these things, but that burden is yours and your husband’s to share and deal with, and it is not the responsibility of any non-believing woman to follow your religious values. Live and let live. Christ did not only associate with those who helped him uphold good values. He associated with many “bad influences”, and he was a beacon to them; he was not tarnished by them. Shoot for that, and try not to condemn those not living up to values that you have chosen to embrace. |
Also, much of the message of Miss Representation was how even women of great achievement and power are primarily criticized for their appearance, as though how they look is the most important thing about them. Your focus on how these women dress and what they’re doing to your life is no better than that. It serves to make a woman’s appearance, fashion choices, and body belong to everyone instead of just her. |
Ah yes. The clothing worn by women in public versus the modest clothing in church. Provocative? Yes, some of it definately is and I want to scream at the mothers and fathers who allow their children (girls primarily) to wear it. Sometimes the moms wear the same type of clothing! What to do as a priesthood holder? Try not to stare and condemn. Give gratitude for modesty in clothing where you find it. Not all provocative clothing leads to porn problems. Its curiosity that killed the cat and men are visual creatures who, if they allow themselves down the porn path to addiction, respond and lose the spirit and sometimes their priesthood and families. As you pass through Las Vegas imagine how those of us who live there have to deal with the sex industry in this city. Pervasive. Omnipresent. Tempting. Cocktail waitresses and dancers make more in hours than some make in weeks. The wages of sin. Attend a high school football game on a Friday night when it is still warm here in the fall. Teenage girls letting it out for all to see. No one watching the dance team or cheerleaders when the show is walking around trying to attract attention. I agree porn problems belong to those who have them. Don’t blame clothing for causing pornography anymore than blaming fast food for obesity. There is right and wrong. LDS men (and women) who are taught correct principles know the difference and know how to correct their behavior. Thank you for the post Sunshine. You and your husband are not alone. One of my favorite reasons to attend church is to watch the members of my Ward sit with their families and worship together modestly dressed in “Sunday Best”. Not a bare midriff, strapless dress, cleavage on deliberate display, or booty shorts to be found. Now if only we could get the High Priests to polish their shoes, match their socks and wear clean ties, all would be well in Zion. |
It seems to me the problem is that you live in an environment where “modesty” is the norm and when you went out into the real world you found that people were not living up to you standards/expectations. I live in a world that is more like California and people dress without being concerned about modesty. On occasions some people dress to be provocative, sometimes to be apropriate to the situation, but often they just dress to be comfortable. I find this much less sexualising that the obsession with modesty in the church. I also live in a country where the head of state is a woman(Governor General), the Prime Minister is a woman, and until a couple of weeks ago the Premier of our state was a woman. Woman are much more equal here, but the average woman on the street is less concerned about her body than in Utah. We also find the child pagents offensive. I do think there may be a problem with the cheer leader/jock culture in America too. |
Oh and the only place I hear about pornography is at church. |
Sorry but p0rn use does not cause you to loose the Spirit. |
Howard 22, I’m going to have to ask you to justify that statement. It absolutely causes you to lose the Spirit… But through repentance you can get it back. I have been in groups where I have heard otherwise rational and intelligent women equating porn to actual infidelity. Way to go lady. You’ve just made sure that your husband will not come to you for help if he has a problem. Is it a violation of trust? Yes. Is it the same as cheating on you? NO. |
What??? |
@ #7 Blame evil spirits! It’s so much easier than looking inward and realizing you have rage/jealousy/insanity issues. |
Howard, did you mean lose, or loose? And, if you meant lose the spirit then you are DEAD wrong, and by dead wrong I mean completely and utterly, infinity times infinity wrong… |
This is not a very charitable comment, so you have been warned. But I get VERY tired of porn advocates and consumers telling those who have been harmed by their porn use that there is no consequence to it. |
Sorry for the typo I was phone blogging. Yes I mean p0rn use does not cause you to lose the Spirit. I’m not the first to post this on the bloggernacle it has been confirmed by others. My experience and the experience of active priesthood holders I have talked with is if you set aside your guilt and your perceived lack of worthiness and reach out for the Spirit in the same way you did before with a little persistence you will find Him right where you left Him. |
SR if your comment was in any way aimed at me not only was it uncharitable, it was also completely inaccurate. |
So, wait, I’m confused. It’s okay to look at porn if you don’t feel guilty for watching men and women share the most sacred experience God has to offer? That’s ok? Really? Howard, you my friend, are addicted to p0rn! |
No Sunshine I’m not addicted to p0rn and no that is not what I’m saying. I’m saying that in my experience and in the experience of others I have talked with the Spirit does not flee because you’re viewing p0rn instead YOU withdraw from Him! |
Howard, your friends are lying to you and themselves. They think they can have it both ways. They can’t. Although, I suppose we all do it to some extent with our vices. |
Howard, |
georgiabelle, |
You’re oversimplifying Howard. Yes, the Spirit in the sense of feeling God’s Love is available to you if you seek Him, But the companionship and guidance of the Holy Ghost is contingent on your personal purity. It’s not a simple matter of switching off the screen and switching on the Spirit. You have to repent and allow your heart to change in order to be a hospitable abode for the Hold Ghost to dwell. |
Jy, |
Ron, |
Howard, it may be semantics that is causing this disagreement, but I think you will acknowledge that habitual porn use will make it much more difficult to have the spirit in your life. Does it make it impossible? No. We are not requires to be perfect in order to have the spirit, but that is not a reason to go around trumpeting that you can do porn and have the spirit. That is technically true of almost any sin, but a foolish thing to say. Porn damages the spirit, our relationship with it, our relationships with our loved ones, and perhaps most importantly, our own spiritual selves. That’s what you should be talking about. |
Well this sure went in the wrong direction fast! Howard I watched as my then Husband turned away from the spirit and the spirit turned away from him. I can tell you for a fact having dealt with it for many years that the spirit will leave! The spirit cannot dwell in an unclean house and as long as a person partakes of unclean things the spirit will not dwell with them. There is a repentence process to go through one of those steps is to stop doing that which you are repenting of. Once you commit and turn your back on the sin then the Spirit will return if you let it… There is no room for weaning off… You can’t repent and keep doing whatever it is your doing. Thats not true repentence. I watched for years as my husband struggled with his addiction. Each time he “repented” he really hadn’t he would just find a new way to deceive himself and everyone who mattered, his porn addiction just got worse and deeper and more perverted…. Anyway… |
MCQ, |
My personal experience is that when I do something to withdraw myself from the Spirit, I get the companionship of the Holy Ghost back when I repent, not just because I stopped. |
Howard, I’m still confused as to what truth you are speaking about? My husband is in the process of repenting, and some of the process is that he can not look at porn. EVER! We have taken steps as a couple to help bring the Lord back in our lives and some of that is praying, reading scriptures, listening to anything gospel related. It is amazing the change in spirit that we have felt in our home and ourselves these last few weeks. Are you talking about feeling guilt for sinning? I still don’t see what direction you are going… |
Delia, |
Guys, it appears to me that you all are talking about something completely different from what Howard is talking about, so there is really no disagreement, just a different focus. It is certainly true what many are saying, that the spirit wiothdraws when we sin and don’t repent, and the companionship of the Holy Ghost is lost, but I think what Howard is saying is that a persion who sins can still feel the spirit if he or she seeks it out. He or she is not completely cut off from the spirit until full repentance takes place. If that were so, then someone who sinned would not be able to have the guidance of the spirit to lead them back, which we know is not the case. The spirit is there for all of us, and we’re all sinners. Please don’t forget that in your zeal to condemn those that sin differently than you. |
I THINK you’re saying that even if we sin, IF we turn to the Lord, He is there, right, Howard? We all have demons–I have some awful ones myself. And sometimes I turn to the Lord in anguish begging Him to help me overcome them. I don’t always feel the spirit at that time, but sometimes. I don’t feel a zeal to condemn porn users, but Howard’s getting on my nerves. |
Ron, Sunshine, Church HQ has the right idea but in my experience the Spirit’s full services, not some stripped down version are available to sinners even p0rn users when they seek Him even before repenting. And yes in addition, also enjoy His comfort and guidance on the repentance path, you don’t have to be fully repentant – who is? |
annegb we posted about the same time. I will bow out now so your nerves can recover. |
Me and my relief society going/teaching wife enjoy a very healthy and vibrant sex life. We avail ourselves on occasional date nights to hit the adult shops and stock up on our favorite oils and battery operated toys that are fabulous in the bedroom. Not frequently, but often enough we enjoy tasteful porn in the bedroom on the Ipad, porn geared towards couples and is a big plus for the experience at hand. Our sex life is an important pillar in our marriage, and we find nothing but fun and love in our variety. But its place is in our bedroom, and nobody gets to comment on it, especially the church. Oh, and yes, the spirit finds its way to our house. As sunshine started the OP, I’m surprised nobody else picked up on the theme that I want to hit on, and that is the dysfunctional approach towards human sexuality that not only our Mormon church takes, but most Abrahamic religions adopt. “Beliefs like not allowing your 3 year old wear a sleeveless dress because she will, most assuredly, grow up to be a slut, or worse get pregnant. I bought into those beliefs and for the most part bought clothing that I felt or was taught was modest.” while I’ve not heard it put this way before, I do know that the church, and most religionists tend to take a very naive and uneducated approach towards sex and sex education, if it is breached at all. This message is definitely passed to our children who perpetuate the dysfunction. I’m afraid our modesty message sometimes misses the mark or falls on unable ears, as a young woman at BYU will attest to. I’ve been to Disneyland, and many other parks and fairs where I swear human beings are in a competition to see who can wear the most un-tasteful clothing. I love people watching at such places. I don’t remember having sexual themed thoughts like you did Sunshine, other than the occasional “does she/he realize how bad they look in such clothing?” I tend to be turned “off” by such blatant trailer-park trashy dressing that exposes too much skin. “Sex is sacred and should be reserved for marriage” is not comprehensive sex education, and it might surprise many that that is the only sex education that many young people in our traditional Mormon upbringing get before they’re married, then suddenly on the wedding night, clothes come off, shamed bodies are on display, young men are overcome by the object so mysterious and forbidden, and the source of much teen-age guilt and failure as masturbation was never controlled, never mastered. All this culminated through confused years into a soft misogyny, and after the nasty deed is done, the misogyny only strengthens as he rolls off with guilt intact, and a young woman in tears, and we wonder why the lack of satisfaction continues, sometimes indefinitely, and porn seems a convenient outlet. I don’t have the answers. But I do feel that porn, like all addictions, is the symptom, not the root problem. We all rally around the porn banner with pitchforks and flame and chant its demise, but like fast-food, beer, and ciggies, they are here to stay, and besides that, some of it is and can be productive. NPR did a in-depth story on the women who work in the industry and would take exception to most of you about how they conduct and are treated in their business. It was an eye opening production. Oh and about the Spirit. If we believe that the Holy Ghost has been around since the dawn of man, then we should give this entity more credit than we do. This entity has seen it all. Mass murder, war, genocide, child slavery, child rape, child abuse in all of its horrific detail, and has seen the worst of the worse, and has been through it all. To say the spirit “is grieved, and will not strive with man” makes the Holy Ghost out to be a real wuss. The spirit has attended me in my most depraved moments. Do we read the New Testament anymore? We tend to think the Holy Ghost can strive only with those that are well. I’ve got a newsflash, “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick:” The Holy Ghost is not offended by porn, and would find much more offensive, unforgiving attitudes by spouses towards spouses that would condemn their partner before an attempt at reconciliation is laid upon the altar. |
If anyone is interested there is and interesting discussion happening over at FMH on this subject as well. |
Oh, my nerves will survive. Plus I’m going to bed. :) |
Rude Dog, I think I was your wife’s visiting teacher. Your use of “we” and “our” might be delusional on your part. She wasn’t having as much fun as you were. But I agree with your conclusions, to some extent. Because it seems like those raised in very religious homes sometimes—sometimes go overboard on immodesty. Although, I think you elevate yourself to an alarming degree when you presume to speak for the Holy Ghost. |
#20, I might not know “nothing” about a woman’s decision to look sexy on purpose, but I know “something” about it. Heck, I’ve done it. Women are weird that way, I think. Men don’t walk into a room and suddenly know what everyone is wearing and who’s the competition in the room. A woman will notice every detail and feel threatened by the most beautiful woman, EVEN IF, 1. she’s dressed modestly and 2. there are no men in the room. It must be genetic or something. There are probably women who don’t do that, but I don’t know any of them. Taking that as a given, if your husband has a penchant for watching other womens’ naked bodies, it’s entirely reasonable and human to feel anger and resentment. It doesn’t mean the women are actually sluts, again, it’s literary hyperbole! But it’s a natural reaction after you’ve been betrayed. |
55 @ 22, thanks I wouldn’t have been able to say it with such clarity. That being said, 22 I was mad that I was feeling that way about my fellow sisters. I was mad that I had to come to a place where I wanted everyone to wear a burka, and that’s why I started thinking of what my own issues are because no one should ‘hide’ just because _I_ think they should. I realize how delicate this line is. I see it. Rude Dog, we’ve kind of gone at it over at FMH, in a sense, and after last night I came to some conclusions. It isn’t my place to tell you what is acceptable in your bedroom no more than it is your place to tell me what to do in mine. I share my story for those who are in my position and feel the way I do. You share yours, probably, for much of the same reason, and at the end we will both meet our maker and be held accountable for what we did and didn’t do throughout our lives. In this moment, at this time, this is where I’m at. Maybe through the years my edges will soften and i won’t be so prickly. This coming out, in a sense, has made my marriage stronger than it’s been in a long time for which I am grateful. I have a wonderful husband and he’s doing the best he can with what he has, as even this judgemental, hard a** is. |
I just hope there are still some men out there who don’t rely on objectification to get sexually stimulated, or think it’s okay. If my potential husband feels the need to look at pictures of naked strangers (let alone worse,) than he doesn’t need me. I know, I’m an eternal optimist. |
This whole subject makes me very, very sad. I am sorry that Sunshine has been hurt. I would be hurt by if my husband was attracted to p0rn. Rude Dog your ending sentence at #51 put chills up my spine. You are definitely not someone I would spend any time with. I completely disagree with your thoughts. SilverRain – I am right there with you. I hope you find exactly what you are looking for. I am grateful for my husband. After reading some of the comments from men on this post, I am reminded I have a jewel. I am making him a nice dinner tonight just to say thanks for not liking p0rn, thanks for being a good person I can trust and most importantly, thank you for being very clear on what attracts and what repels the Spirit. What a gift! |
LIZ if the blog had a like button I would triple like your statement. |
One evangelical leader was skeptical of survey findings that said 50 percent of Christian men have looked at porn recently. So he surveyed his own congregation. He found that 60 percent had done so within the past year, and 25 percent within the past 30 days. Other surveys reveal that one in three visitors to adult websites are women. Christianity Today 2008 |
SilverRain, I think you are right in what to look for and should continue to be optimistic. And no, not all men use porn by any means, or think it’s ok. Rude Dog (perfect handle BTW) is wrong. There’s no question that the Holy Ghost is offended by porn. It’s not ok. |
Howard, what is it exactly that you’re trying to say with those statistics? |
#59. Ditto I think Howard means a lot of Christians look at porn. |
MCQ, |
Howard, Just because lots of men use it, doesn’t make it right. What’s your point? |
That’s what I’m asking too, LiZ. Howard if your only point is that a lot of people do it, I think that’s an inane contribution to the discussion. |
Highest rates of Pornographic website sales(subscriptions) are in Utah. This article isn’t about porn, it is mainly about insecurity. Yea, there will always be someone else who sexually attracts your mate. We are wired to find others attractive. We can acknowledge this and talk about it, or we can pretend we aren’t that way. Dressing in a manner that is sexual(or “slutty” to some of you) is not your problem, you have no control over other people, you think they are weird, they think you are weird. After all, we were born naked just like Adam and Eve, God created our bodies to be beautiful not to be shamed. My advice, for what its worth is for couples to not let this issue be one of division, instead of focusing on something so insignificant in our stay here, focus on the things that brought you as a couple together. A man may look at someone else’s boobs online, but if you two are in love why should that matter? And not to |
@ living in zion, it doesn’t make it wrong either. His point is that there is a lot of naivete when it comes to this issue. 50% means when the congregation sustains, 1/2 the men use porn. |
MCQ, |
Playing the devil’s advocate for a minute, Howard’s got a point—-what’s up with that? What is the mindset of a man who isn’t attracted to porn vs men who are? |
I think that’s a mistake annegb. First of all, there are in fact women who are interested in porn, so it’s not just a male issue. Second, there’s very few men who aren’t attracted to porn, in the sense that they aren’t at all interested in seeing beautiful women naked. Of course they do, they just choose not to get involved with it. Some men have more resistance to that kind of thing than others, just as some men have more resistance to alcohol or drug use. I’m guessing it’s a combination of genetics and conditioning. One thing I’m sure of though, whatever our initial reaction to it, we can all learn to stay away from it, just as we can learn to stay away from drugs, alcohol, tobacco or other things that cause us problems. |
This whole rant-post is appalling. So people aren’t living up to your expectations? They are OBVIOUSLY going after you, personally, to make you feel comfortable and FORCE your husband to watch porn and make his “addiction” (that you didn’t even know about ten years, what a negative life-impact!) even worse. it’s everyone’s job in the world to live exactly how YOU want them to because they’re obviously put on this planet to please YOU. YOU aren’t being selfish and conceited at all. YOU are the epitome of daughter of God! you are so non-judgmental and loving! You don’t jump to conclusions about people, you don’t allow circumstances you can’t control to affect you, and you love everyone, regardless if they live the way you think if appropriate. Man, I really should rethink my life now. |
I should expect that it, among other things, means that we world have a church living considerably below it’s spiritual heritage. And many families living in a state of barely getting by. Kind of like now. Anne, I wrote a post about how porn use can twist someone’s perception of relationships. I’ll try to find the link… |
That makes sense to me, Mcq. And I would guess that religious men feel more guilty and confess and people talk. So it appears that more religious men than non-religious men use pornography. SR, I’ll go look it up. Although I knew that, I’d read somewhere that frequent porn use affects the marital relationship because men develop unrealistic expectations from their wives. Many have difficulty having “normal” sex. You’d think that would be a deterrent for “normal” men. |
Dr. Patrick Carnes, a pioneer in sexual addiction research, has outlined four core beliefs common in most sexual addicts. They usually result from growing up in a dysfunctional family, especially one with rigid rules, little warmth and affirmation, abandonment, and sexual or emotional abuse. The core beliefs are the following: 1) I am basically a bad, unworthy person, 2) No one would love me as I am, 3) My needs are never going to be met if I have to depend upon others, 4) Sex is my most important need. The root of sexual addiction usually begins in childhood. Carnes writes, “When a child’s exploration of sexuality goes beyond discovery to routine self-comforting because of the lack of human care, there is potential for addiction. Sex becomes confused with comforting and nurturing.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction Contrast this psychological explanation with the common bias that p0rn users are evil willful sinners. Are p0rn users worse than say over eaters? How? If they’re core belief is they are bad and unworthy doesn’t the church’s position reenforce that belief? Is the p0rn user to be blamed or divorced for his dysfunctional upbringing? Why? How is this more dysfunctional than women’s self critical issues about looks and body image? |
Oh settle down, Stephanie. You’ve never envied another woman’s looks? I don’t believe it. Had your husband enjoyed the attractiveness of another woman, you might feel differently. Few women are so secure that their psyches can withstand that. It’s possible that you’re a saintly type, but it’s entirely normal for women to circle one another “figuratively” in the most innocuous situations, let alone a woman who feel betrayed. I don’t understand why you can’t see the incredible courage and gut-wrenching honesty Sunshine has shown in expressing herself her. She’s not saying she’s right to feel that way. On the other hand, she has a point that women are judged and rated to an alarming degree on appearance. My heck, Sarah Palin would never have been considered had she looked like Erma Bombeck. |
Again, Howard has a point. I think it’s a matter of degrees, Howard. Over-eating, while very unhealthy, and possibly against the Word of Wisdom, doesn’t rise to the level of sexual sin. But you know what? I agree with you, really. The men I know personally agonize over this. And surely the spirit-and their Father in Heaven–is pulling for them. I’ve heard of men who simply become evil, but we all have. I have felt that spirit, that goes beyond, “oh my, she’s pretty, look at that dress, I would LOVE to have that butt. Or hair.” The one that says “I hate you because you’re beautiful.” I believe it’s a temptation of the devil for a woman to suspect the intentions of another woman or her husband to the point that hate fills her heart. Most of the time, I can feel the feeling and dismiss, but sometimes I make plans for my (fictional) godfather to step in with some cement shoes. I suppose that’s like men and porn. It’s not the same, but it kind of is. |
MCQ, |
My most recent post is here, if you couldn’t find it. I’ve waxed loquacious on the subject a few more times, notably here and a highly controversial one here. For what it’s worth, I don’t think there is anything in sin by porn that is inherently worse than a number of other sinful behaviors for the sinner. However, the potential for damaging the person who should be one’s most precious friend is HUGE. If you read the rant in Jacob 2 carefully, you can see that the damage the men have done is not from affairs, but from thinking about affairs, visualizing them. Just because a spouse doesn’t know doesn’t mean that it isn’t damaging the relationship. I always knew I wasn’t measuring up to my husband when I was married to him. I was (what I now recognize as) marital rape several times because he convinced me he HAD to have me do something in order to fill his needs. Whenever an individual’s needs become so all-consuming that they objectify another person, especially a spouse, it’s not just about THEIR sin anymore. The ironic thing about Sarah Palin is that she was mocked, called “Caribou Barbie” for the very thing that people wanted in her. The mentality of women-as-visual-objects permeates our culture so deeply that we hardly recognize it. |
Wow, SR, that says it all. Howard, you can’t wear Mcq out in an argument. Just saying. I have to stop in between arguments with him, have a cold beer, meditate for awhile, then jump back in. I always give up. |
The macro psycho dynamics of this are: wives of p0rn users play victims (they aren’t) husbands p0rn users are persecutors (they aren’t) and the church is the rescuer some times but often it isn’t unless you consider continuing p0rn use, leaving the church or divorce a legitimate rescue. So mostly this is just a huge dysfunctional drama. See Karpman Drama Triangle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle If you want to stop the drama; wives stop catastrophizing the situation, everyone stop vilifying the user, circle the user in love and support and get him some help. |
SR, for some reason, my laptop freezes every time I go onto your blog. I’m going to try my pc. Howard, you married? You love your wife? You wouldn’t catastrophize (what a hard to spell word) if you found out she was sexually attracted to other men? |
Is philandering no obstacle to spiritual communication and something a wife shouldn’t catastrophize? |
annegb, |
John, |
I’m confused—who was philandering? |
In 84 my wife, in 85 me. |
I agree with Howard’s last line in 81. Wives do need to stop catastrophizing the situation. Too many times I have heard from otherwise intelligent and rational women in the church, “If I find out he’s looking at porn I’ll divorce him.” Ladies, men know of this attitude and that is a HUGE obstacle to your man getting the help he needs. |
Stephanie… sigh… I wish you would have read all of the follow-up responses, and thank YOU for calling me to repentance. You now find me sufficently humbl…nah. I don’t really care if you accept of my feelings or emotions. They are mine and I own every single one of them however distasteful they seem to you. Howard, actually, I agree with your #75. I just wish more people would realize how deep issues/sin/problems/addictions go, and there is much to be said about support. As to the debate about the spirit, I agree everyone has the right to the spirit, and can feel the spirit throughout their lives, sinning or not. I believe that shows how gentle and loving Heavenly Father is, but not everyone has the gift of the spirit, or constant companionship of him. That absolutely comes only with righteousness… I have kept my husband up to date on this post and he said to me… So ask them if they would watch p0rn with Jesus in the room.? |
Well if Jesus were present I would have a lot I would want to discuss with him and p0rn wouldn’t be very high on my list but long ago I watched p0rn while communing with the Spirit. I asked for help in understanding it and understanding my reaction to it. I was inspired to move toward more connected and loving images and came to understand that isolation, disconnected sex and fetish is a big part of it. Fetish is interesting. For a long time I was fascinated by watching and compelled to have sex in a certain fairly uncommon position. I pondered this for some time until I was stunned to remember an experience when I was 10 that I had blocked. I had been playing in a field with my neighbor, a girl of 12 when we were approached by a man who proceeded to rape her using that position. My compulsion and fascination ended immediately upon remembering this event, this is the value to insight therapy it can end the craving. Was I committing sin buy watching p0rn showing that position? Funny thing, it provided the stimulus to question and eventually heal me of both the experience and the fetish. |
Why was I placed in moderation? |
Okay now I’m out so I’ll repost it: Well if Jesus were present I would have a lot I would want to discuss with him and p0rn wouldn’t be very high on my list but long ago I watched p0rn while communing with the Spirit. I asked for help in understanding it and understanding my reaction to it. I was inspired to move toward more connected and loving images and came to understand that isolation, disconnected sex and fetish is a big part of it. Fetish is interesting. For a long time I was fascinated by watching and compelled to have sex in a certain fairly uncommon position. I pondered this for some time until I was stunned to remember an experience when I was 10 that I had blocked. I had been playing in a field with my neighbor, a girl of 12 when we were approached by a man who proceeded to rape her using that position. My compulsion and fascination ended immediately upon remembering this event, this is the value to insight therapy it can end the craving. Was I committing sin buy watching p0rn showing that position? Funny thing, it provided the stimulus to question and eventually heal me of both the experience and the fetish. |
My comment must be caught in your spam filter. |
Just a minute |
Howard. It’s very hard to take you seriously when you tell me you cheated and she cheated and uh, it ended okay? I’m not even going to touch your compulsion to re-act the rape you saw. I think we’ve gone beyond common sense. anonymous, I agree. Afganis should take the Taliban out once and for all. Korea should re-unite. No one in the world should be hungry. Can you possibly admit it’s human and also very difficult to just stop feeling? Shoulda, coulda, woulda… |
Well we both turned out okay we learned a lot and we’re both much healthier today but our marriage ended in divorce. Hmm re-act, I never thought of it as a reenactment but you might be right, in any case remembering it ended it. I don’t know what you mean by going beyond common sense but making the subconscious conscious is common sense within psychology. Stop feeling? To stop catastrophizing is not to stop feeling, it is to stop exaggerating the situation well beyond what it is. |
Perhaps the difference between us is that I try to live life in a good and decent manner because it’s the right thing to do. I want to treat others well and respect others (and allow them to live as they wish to without letting my own damn insecurities dictate what they can and cannot do. Your insecurities? Sounds like a personal problem that you should keep to yourself and not use as bait to attack others who don’t have those issues) because that is how I would wish to be treated. I don’t need some fake Jesus figure to stand behind my shoulder and tell me what to do because I can’t think for myself. |
I also live in a good and decent manner. I also want to treat others well. I also want to be rid of my insecurities. To be so perfectly wonderful as to be worthy to be translated, but choose (like you) to stay here on this telestial plain so as to help and ispire others with your stellar example. Although….my Jesus is pretty real. He gets it. He laughs. A lot. Right now He’s probably laughing at you. |
I think a few people need to read up on victim-blaming. I might hope that my ex-husband can be “encircled with love” to get help and support in order to repent. But part of the repentance process is learning and acknowledging the people you have hurt, and the validity of their pain. You don’t have to deny the damage a person has caused in order to love and support their repentance. |
“To stop catastrophizing is not to stop feeling, it is to stop exaggerating the situation well beyond what it is.” I actually agree with that. Can you at least acknowledge how gut-wrenchingly hard that is? And I guess, my friend Howard, that the fact that your marriage failed speaks for itself. Are you married now? We could go out. Actually I think we did. Remember, back in the late 70′s? You didn’t like me that much, nor I you, but I thought you’d bee good husband material, being rich and all. Thank heaven THAT didn’t happen, huh?? |
SR if you comment includes me please explain how I deny the damage. |
Stephanie, you do see how hypocritical you are being, don’t you? And, did you read all of my follow-ups? No, I’m guessing not because I never said those things out loud. Never… not to one single woman. I didn’t not slap her, punch her, or hold up my banner saying NO MORE SLUTTY PORN PEOPLE AT DISNEYLAND! No, I didn’t… you want to know why? Probably not, but I’ll tell you anyway… because it wasn’t them and I knew it, and I was even more upset with myself that I was feeling so angry… I really don’t care what you think of me. I don’t because I’m not perfect… far from it, and I think I’m okay with that too. Go, Stephanie, live your life of perfection. Someone should, someone should be such and example of grace and love and purity. “To stop catastrophizing is not to stop feeling, it is to stop exaggerating the situation well beyond what it is.” |
annegb, |
So will you go out with me? If not, Stephanie, we could go out. |
Each of us are the judge of that Sunshine and our judgement changes as we learn and grow. |
Howard, so you can do what you did last time I gave you the examples you asked for, and accuse me of cherry-picking? Fine. “wives of p0rn users play victims (they aren’t) . . . this is just a huge dysfunctional drama. . . . If you want to stop the drama; wives stop catastrophizing the situation. . .” And that’s just one comment. I don’t care enough to mine ALL of the ways you have tried to minimize the effect of pornography, and blame the women for “overdramatizing.” So I’m left with what I said before: I am very tired of the people who are not the ones being hurt telling those who are to just get over it and that the pain they feel really isn’t that bad. Sunshine’s point (I think) is that you have NO RIGHT to judge whether or not someone else is “overdramatizing” their pain caused by porn, especially when you’re painting with a broad brush. “The problem” is not the person who is hurt by porn usage and their pesky feelings, it’s the person who feels their need to be sexually stimulated is worth more than the well-being of their spouse. |
And by the way, the language you have used is very reminiscent of apologia for full-blown affairs and for spousal abuse. I really don’t have anything more to say at this point. |
Amen, SilverRain. |
I am the judge of my situation, not you, thankyouverymuch! And, I think I’ve handled it pretty damn good if I do say so myself. But, that’s probably because i’m a proud person, and maybe Stephanie can give me some pointers on how to avoid such evil practices. shrug. Howard, where I disagree with the idea that you should tell me how to react to a situation, I did look up the word catastrophizing and I do see your point. |
SR, |
Aw, I love it when you insult my intelligence. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. And tells me the conversation is Over. |
SR |
Howard, just to answer your previous question, I don’t think there is any such thing as a sin or problem behvior that cannot be solved. God put us here to grow and progress and deal with these problems, all of them. We all have them. Some are more difficult than others and addiction of any kind is a difficult problem. But Howard, others have defeated addictions of all kinds, including sex and porn addiction, so I believe members of the church can do it too. The only guaranteed way to ensure we will not solve this problem is to give up and stop trying. As long as we are trying and seeking the help of the Lord, I believe we will get through this, and any problem we face, individually or collectively. I’m discouraged by some of the comments on this thread. Howard’s comments are provocative, and in some cases, probably wrong, but he’s probably right that the way that many spouses react to this problem is not productive, helpful to the addict or beneficial to the marriage. I know that can sound like I’m blaming the victim, but in reality the role of victim is all wrong. If your spouse is watching porn or having an affair or abusing alcohol or drugs or engaging in any other destructive behavior, he or she is in reality not doing it to you or victimizing you as much as he or she is victimising himself or herself. These behaviors are much more destructive to the person involved than they are to the spouse or family of that person. I note that this was part of the message of the post over at FMH as well, which was very positive and beneficial. When spouses learn to stop being the victim and start looking for a way to actually solve problems, including their own (and they do always have them), it will be a big step forward. I know this is easier said than done, and I’m not denying that there are hurt feelings and broken hearts that deserve consideration in these situations. Those feelings are real and I’m not denying them or minimizing them, I’m just saying that until we get past those feelings, we aren’t doing anyone any good. Victimhood is a very comfortable role. Some people spend their whole lives in it. Ultimately, it’s a dead end. |
It’s not uncommon for children who grow up in less than healthy loving family dynamics to conflate love with varying levels of abuse and some equate the two. This is an abuse fetish and it it formed similarly to p0rn user’s fetishes. These children will allow abuse or even crave abuse in varying levels and they will sometimes consciously but more often subconsciously repeatedly choose a partner who will provide this. So some women who are being abused are not even aware they are victims of abuse, for them realizing that they truly are victims is substantial growth! I recognize and validate their anger, their damage and the fact that they are victims of both their upbringing and their partner (who btw is likely the victim of his upbringing as well). However this is a bad time to stop therapy or insight because they then embrace the role of victim and play it out in drama and psychological games and their appeal for sympathy makes it very easy to enable them. Like the optical illusion of the old women and the new woman, they need to come to see the difference between the actual victim they once when they were in an abusive relationship (which was full of drama and games) and playing the victim role which keeps them comfortably in a lot of drama and games today. |
Well, we got off the subject discussing how women are hard on each other (and, believe me, themselves) what with the slut-shaming vs feeling one’s feelings debate. Does nobody understand she was not justifying her feelings of resentment but bravely sharing them? She doesn’t intend to bathe in them forever. I think we agree that responsibility for one’s actions belong to the individual. And that those feelings of rage and bitterness are not productive. Sexualization of women–I don’t understand that issue very well. But Jesus heals hearts and while I’m not happy with his timetable, in this case, we need the Savior’s help to recover. |
Nice summary. I don’t think anyone understands the sexualization of women very well, it’s complicated and apparently includes instinct. In this study an objectifying gaze results in lower math scores but a heightened interest in interacting with the gazer. ‘Objectifying gaze’ triggers conflicting outcomes for women: http://phys.org/news/2011-02-objectifying-triggers-conflicting-outcomes-women.html Apparently gazing increases you’re chances of getting a date. I was talking to a private high school librarian about the sexualization of women in the media and she said she canceled the school’s subscription to Glamor because it was to racy for high school kids. Sexualized images of men don’t get much play but sexualized images of women are desired by both men and women! Do women cooperate with their sexualization? Apparently many do. |
They absolutely do, and that was part of the point that Sunshine was making I think, that it made her angry that so many women were complicit in this oversexualization that was making life difficult for her husband and others. Part of the problem though, is that we are sexual beings and sex is a healthy part of our lives. So we can’t just lock it away and deny it exists, that helps to create the unhealthy obsessions that we see becoming addictions. So it’s a matter of finding the right line and balance, which is much more difficult than if we could just get rid of it entirely. In some ways, we need to embrace our sexuality in order to be healthy, but we have to keep it within boundaries too. I think the Durrants had it right when they said something like: “sex is a river of fire and must be banked and cooled by a thousand disciplines or it will destroy the individual and his group.” that doesn’t mean you get rid of it or deny it, you just have to channel it in the right way. |
MCQ, yes and amen! |
I got that from the original post. A few people didn’t and went off on tangents. I don’t agree with all of Howard’s statements, but I do agree with some of them. annegb: Childhood trauma, and first sexual contact/experience (even just a visual, such as pornography) usually has a very strong imprinting effect on a person. From what I’ve read, most fetishes/kinks do have a root in something that occurred in childhood or one’s first sexual experience. That’s why most people who are sexually abused as children have sexual dysfunction or screwed-up adult lives if they aren’t treated and healed of the trauma. Abused kids often grow up to be either abusers, or “pertual victims”, seeking out parnters (usually subconsciously, as Howard said) who will abuse them, and even subconsciously prompting/provoking further abuse. I have a tendency to be abusive in relationships, and I can directly link that to the dysfunctional home I grew up in. Unless I’m constantly on my guard, I end up treating women as my father treated my mother and us kids. Every time dad was cruel and abusive (emotionally and verbally, he never hit), mom said “It’s okay” and never fought back. That was her coping mechanism, but to us kids, it meant that what dad was doing was okay, was “normal” since she kept saying it was “okay.” It wasn’t until I was in my 40′s that I realized I was treating people just like he treated us. It was like “Aha! So that’s why everyone hates me.” Somehow, even before I get in a relationship, in just everyday normal interation, I give off “markers” that indicate that I am abusive, and I often attract women who were abused as children. In my case, it’s a very high correlation; if a woman (in the church or out) comes on to me, it turns out she was sexually abused as a child. At first I noticed that I was attracting only obese women, and I wondered why, since I wasn’t obese. I was frustrated that only obese women liked me. Later on I realized that there is a high correlation between morbid obesity (bmi of 40 or greater) in women and childhood sexual trauma. It was a case of the abused seeking out an abuser. |
I’m not sure where you’re going with that, Book, as far as addiction to porn and sexualization of women in the context of Sunshine’s experience goes. You’re right about the abuse and obesity connection. There’s a doctor in California–I have the video somewhere on my laptop who did a study of over 25,000 people (men, also) over a number of years and tracked specific health issues to abuse (it wasn’t all sexual). Obesity was one effect, but there were others. A lot were stemming from substance abuse when people tried to dull the pain. (By the way, he said that suicide is a vianble coping mechanism for people like that–I cfelt better about myself). Women also turn to bulemia and anorexia. So there’s clinical data to support your hypothesis and I believe women are often attracted to their fathers. The problem of porn and sexualization of women (hell, our whole society seems obsessed with sex these days)is an orange compared to them apples, though. I love to watch TV and I tell you, you see a lot on regular TV these days. If one has cable the language alone makes me fall back into old habits of cussing! The other day I was watching a new cable show and got a full naked butt look at Jeffrey Dean Morgan! I’m getting used to it. Which is the problem. Are we cheapening loving sex by presenting it as normal and fun and no big deal? I watched that new Betty White show the other day (only time I’ll watch it) and while it was funny, most of the vignettes focused on seniors “getting lucky” with a date or other sexual situations. There are very few shows on that don’t present indiscriminate sex as a given and a good thing. I think that’s why people watch so much network reality TV like DWTS because there’s no family programming. And even with DWTS, hell, the women are half naked and the men supposedly get votes by taking their shirts off. In the “old” days, we were too judging and condemning. Now we not enough of that and lack discernment, dignity and chastity as a people–and the whole dang world is doing it. That’s a big change, NH. |
PS……there’s an interesting dichotomy in your story, I think. Boys who watch their mothers abused feel protective, but helpless–it’s pretty sad. Then, they abuse. |
Check out this post on Zelophehad’s Daughters: http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/24/if-a-woman-strips-naked-in-a-forest-and-no-one-sees-her-is-she-still-pornography/#comment-71428 |