How did you know all these things about Josiah? From gossip (via Jennifer and Alex)? And how did they know? You can’t possibly know to what extent it is true, and even if you did, it’s none of your business. Plus, it’s been 2 years, you don’t know what he’s like now-not to mention you are assuming Nancy doesn’t know; and from your post, it’s impossible to tell how close Jennifer and Alex really are to the couple.

jks, my experience is crazy creates crazy. One can live with a nutcase only for so long before their thought process starts to make sense.

liz, so it sounds like you also draw the line between “merely aware of each other’s presense” and having a close friendship when it comes to sharing the dark side of potential spouses.

At this point, it’s too late. The knot is tied. Meddling now would be unfair to both of them.

Telling her about his past has no upside now. Either she already knows by now, and she’ll likely be offended that you brought it up, or… if she doesn’t know, she’ll be crushed and resentful (to her spouse and her friends) that no one told her before the marriage. Tellling her now would cause heightened and continuous suspicions on her part against him.

Even before the marriage, the most you can do is tell the prospective partner that he/she needs to investigate the other’s past, talk to previous girlfriends, etc, and if she’s okay with his past, or believes he has repented and won’t repeat it, she needs to insist on a sufficiently long engagement to make sure there are no surprises.

I’ve known two couples who had very short lived marriages. One couple didn’t really know each other, it was an internet marriage, with only a couple face-to-face visits before tieing the knot. I didn’t know about it before hand, and wouldn’t have had a way to contact the woman anyway. But I would have told her to move to the guy’s town, live in a motel, or with another LDS member, for a couple weeks, see or date him every day, and she would have gotten to know him better, and likely called it off.

The other couple I knew had known each other all through high school, non-LDS, but both had cheated on each other during the engagement. They got married mainly because everyone expected them to get married. Then they both cheated shortly after the marrage.

I wanted to go to that wedding and stand up when the preacher said the “speak now or forever hold your peace” line.

And that line makes sense now. You didn’t speak up before the marriage, so now hold your peace.

I understand annegb’s advice to say nothing. It’s true that speaking up almost always results in bad feelings – often the other person gets defensive and takes the opposite view just to prove the busybody wrong.

How do I know this? Because I’m a “busybody” who always speaks up. It’s a conscious decision I’ve made, and I’ve caused all kinds of problems. Like annegb described, I’ve caused years of problems by speaking up up about stuff I think is wrong. It’s particularly hard because I really care what people think about me, and I hate it when people don’t get along.

Given all that, here’s why I speak up:

1. All it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing (I think I’m mis-quoting that, but this is what I tell myself.)

2. I believe in the right to make bad decisions, like marrying a jerk or investing in a risky business, but I believe in making INFORMED bad decisions. If someone is making a decision that doesn’t seem bad, because they lack all the information, then that’s not a real choice. And of I’m standing by, watching the person make a choice, while I hold key information, then I’m part of the deception, too.

3. Giving people facts and truth is more important than keeping good relationships. For example, I may hate the person who tells me something bad about my kid, but I sure do need that information to help my kid make it to adulthood as felony- and neurosis- free as possible.

I think my major problem is that I haven’t come up with a tactful way to tell people sensitive information. I come across as a bulldozer, when a gentle hand is more effective. I just get so riled up when I see people (like the guy from the OP) taking advantage of others.

I had several people, including a member of the singles ward bishopric, tell me to avoid the girl who I wound up marrying. Even during our marriage, I had a branch president ask why I didn’t leave her (severe medical issues). Our marriage lasted 23 years, and only ended because she died. I would have had a much different life if I’d listened to them–much easier, especially. But I wouldn’t trade any of it.

Hmm. This post screams “judgment” to me and I can’t seem to get past that enough to share an opinion.

Michelle,
I think “judgment” is warranted when known financial fraud has been committed. At the very least, a honest conversation with a decent explanation is needed.

I am not afraid of judging. I am afraid of unrighteous judgment, not calling a spade a spade.

I agree with the idea of speaking up before the marriage and shutting up afterward. Of course, if you want me to actually do that for you, don’t be telling me all the ways your spouse is a jerk after marriage or I might be tempted to agree with you.

and asking “the question” like it was a monthly planned FHE activity

I thought this meant that he was proposing, but you said he was scared off by talk of marriage, so what is “the question”?

You admit that this guy had permanent injuries from a car accident that caused him seizures, and yet you continue to badmouth him based on rumors you heard about him from others in your gossipy singles ward? See anything wrong with that picture?

If this guy was really committing fraud, wouldn’t the police be the proper authorities to determine that, rather than expecting the bishop to take action? You say the bishop couldn’t do anything because he would “flee” yet you say his records always remaineed in your ward. Could you maybe get your story straight?

I agree with Michelle, you come off as incredibly judgmental in this post, and LIZ is not remedying the situation with her sophomoric rationalizations.

How much more plainly can we be commanded not to judge? Didn’t you listen to President Uchtdorf’s talk last conference? If that didn’t drive the point home then nothing will.

annegb, it’s not just the GAs, it’s Christ himself who told us not to do it, and the problem is that we don’t even try. We’re all about condemning those who try to “feel up” their fiance, but we don’t see any problem in our own behavior. This is exactly what Christ was referring to when he said this:

And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

We all know those verses so well that we practically have them memorized, but do we make any effort to follow them? And yet they are so important that they are part of both the New Testament and the Book of Mormon.

Here’s the part of LIZ’s comment that I object to:

I am not afraid of judging. I am afraid of unrighteous judgment, not calling a spade a spade.

That’s just a massive rationalization for judging anyone you want to judge. Not afraid of judging? Why not? Doesn’t it matter at all that we are commanded (twice) not to do it? No, you’re more afraid of “not calling a spade a spade.” As if LIZ’s opinion of what a “spade” is constitutes the final word on the matter. Yes, please, do tell us the gospel truth of who is good and who is bad so we don’t all go on with our lives one more day without knowing your hallowed judgement on everyone!

And NH, get that word “duty” out of your vocabulary. You have a duty to your country, your God, and your family. Until you can look in the mirror and see someone about to be translated, forget about deciding what other peoples’ duty is.

To answer your questions MCQ:

My understanding is that he proposed often, but only followed through once. I think he liked the idea of saying he was engaged, but couldn’t handle the idea of staying in one place and raising a family.

I do not know the extent of his brain injury, and have never heard of a nomadic lifestyle being a symptom of one. Because of that I blatantly ignore any and all claims he had to saying a car accident made him feel restless.

My understanding in the way the church system works, unless your records are in the ward you attend the bishop has no way to get a hold of whoever has authority over you.

The fleeing part was in reference to the fact that when he left for a month at a time, he came back before the ward he was visiting was able to figure out where he was from. In previous posts on this site we’ve stated how sad it was members who have committed fraud still went to the temple. I was using that to explain the extent of his actions and general personality.

And as much as you would like to condemn me for judging, I am more than willing to dig up past comments of yours when you were specifically doing the exact same thing. Judging is in the eye of the beholder and there is no way to win around it. If you truly care about a situation you will judge. If you don’t care then chances are you won’t bother to develop an opinion. So you either spend your entire life caring and judging or not caring and coming off as insensitive.

Of course we’re not supposed to condemn others! We’re not supposed to do a lot of things, but are we not all sinners?

You’re really making my point for me here. If we’re all sinners, and we all fall short, then why would it be ok to talk about people the way NH does in this post? That’s something we can easily control. We may not be able to be perfect in most things, but we can at least bag the bitchy judgmental blog posts. Just stop typing and back slowly away from the computer!

Your condemnation of LIZ is judgemental!

Believe me, the irony is not lost on me. But I don’t see any way around it in this case.

Of course none of us is perfect in this area, but I don’t think I’ve ever written a whole post that is simply a judgmental critique of another person, nor would I ever want to do so. So no, NH, you really can’t dig up comments where I was doing the same exact thing. On top of that, we have LIZ saying that she’s fine with judging others, she just doesn’t want to be accused of not “calling a spade a spade” as if that were the worst thing she could do. That is seriously messed up.

As for the question of whether I would tell my friend if I saw his or her spouse in a compromising situation, of course I would, but that is not the issue I’m disagreeing with here. The problem with this post is not the question that it asks about disclosure of facts, the problem with this post is the attitude and the tone that it has toward this Josiah person. The gossipy tone and the fact that you branded this guy as “not fit for family responsibilities” based on the info you supposedly knew about him (which is almost entirely based on gossip) is just wrong. We probably should disclose facts that we know firsthand to someone we believe is being deceived, but we shouldn’t listen to things others say about a third person and we shouldn’t pass along that gossip as if it were fact.

I agree that it’s the tone of the post that is the source of the problem.

Perhaps this would have been an okay discussion to have with one’s husband or best friend, but making a personal issue like this the subject of bloggernacle discussion opens up a whole can of worms.

I do not know the extent of his brain injury, and have never heard of a nomadic lifestyle being a symptom of one.

NH: Literally, anything can be a symptom of a brain injury.

Thanks jks. I always appreciate a voice of reason.

I’m going to go with a bit of a threadjack here and consider the subject of judging. I’m ALWAYS uncomfortable with the “do not judge” and “righteous judgement” statement.

I kind of hate that word “judging.” A loved one called me a “judging bitch” once when I expressed disapproval of her drinking and abandoning her children. Well, I was judging her. Righteously, I guess, because she was clearly whacked out. I didn’t feel righteous or judging, I felt so sad and I wanted her to do right because I loved her.

I’m pretty blunt about calling a spade a spade–or a snake a snake. Which doesn’t seem judging to me, it seems honest. Do we pretend that guy who we know has slept around doesn’t have issues? Do I pretend my neighbor who fights with everybody is a nice person? By drawing a line in uncomfortable or troublesome situations, ie “get a grip, you have issues, don’t make them mine”, am I judging?

If I KNOW something, am I honor-bond (oh, crap, do I have a duty) to tell? Sometimes I think so, like when I told the bishop I KNEW a young man he was trying to activate had sodomized a child for years. Who decides?

I’m good with striving to judge righteously, the problem I have with it is I usually here it stated primly in RS meetings regarding gay marriage or some other subject that’s gotten heated.

I actually really liked what NH said about if the dichotomy of truly caring vs coming off insensitive. I find that very thought-provoking. If I do truly care, if it’s a loved one or dear friend, I’m going to poke my nose in. If it’s an acquaintance, I DON’T truly care, except for the grandly Christian concept of love for one another, which, like everything Christian, can be skewed any which way we want.

One thing about Newly Housewife is she always makes us think. And one thing about Mcq is he’s never seen an argument he’s not willing to carry on into the millenium. It appears there is something about them that “just pisses the other off”–pardon the vulgarity.

So setting them BOTH aside for the moment, the question of when we should “tell” is purely subjective and depends on each individual circumstance. In my opinion, stating the truth isn’t the same as judgement, but it can often be ill-advised and counter-productive. If there’s doubt, keeping one’s mouth shut is a safe bet. Although I seldom do so.

One last note to this book: as this debate has raged, I recently encountered a troublesome family situation where I tried to keep my mouth shut then after a bit of provocation, lost it and voiced my righteous judgement to the heavens. Again, I admonish everyone (and myself) IF IN THE TINIEST BIT OF DOUBT, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!!! The advantage the contention alone gives Satan makes discretion the better choice.

I’m friends with a couple former bishops, so I’ve sometimes asked them, without naming names, what would be the proper thing for me to do in a “hypothetical” situation.

For some things, you can just dump it in the bishop’s (or stake presidency’s) lap, and let one of them decide, and let them get involved if they think it proper, or just do what they recommend.

Just make sure you make a distinction, in what you tell the bishop, of what you _know first hand_ (and how you know it) versus what you _believe_ (or what you’ve heard).

Personally, I’ve decided not to meddle except in cases where someone is being a predator (towards adults/youth/children) or children/youth are being hurt. And even then, the limit of how much I get involved or “tell” about, may be limited to just a private chat with the bishop or a member of the stake presidency.

Sometimes, often times in the church, a really messed up person can get their life in order, and have a successful marriage, no matter what their transgressions or messed-up-ness were in the past.

One guy who we all throught was hard-core alcoholic, because he showed up at singles events drunk, and reeking of alcohol, married a non-member (she knew he was alcoholic), THEN he got sober, and THEN his wife joined the church.

One guy (a member) who was really messed up, with alcohol and/or drugs, never could hold a job, etc, etc, ran off to Vegas and married (quickie Vegas commercial wedding deal) a very active temple-rec holding girlfriend after knowing each other only a few weeks, less than 2 months. They didn’t tell anyone. We knew they were dating, then next thing we know they’re married. (She was a lawyer, so we didn’t think she was the type to marry a chronically jobless guy.) We thought that was a big mistake, and that she didn’t know “the truth” about him. But… they’re still happily married and going strong. He said he knew she was “The One” on their first date, and she said she knew it on the 2nd date.

So, so relieved MCQ finally came to what I concluded was the proper response to the original post. Whew!

“The question of whether to tell or not tell a third party information that you may know about their fiance or whatever is a completely different question, and is usually not that hard of a call, in my opinion. You can certainly tell about facts that you actually know (i.e. not gossip, but facts) if you think it’s information that person needs to know.”

And now we can all move on to sunshine and rainbows. Yes!

We all make judgments. (Regardless of how opposed we are to judgementalism, as MCQ has so deft fully demonstrated in his comments here). But I don’t think that an admonition against passing judgment precludes warning someone about a potential relationship with an individual who has a long history of issues, or worse yet, an ongoing situation.

I think there are two points of discussion in the OP, the depth of the relationship with judger has with the third party and the timing of the revelations. It doesn’t sound to me like there is enough of a relationship w/Nancy to justify your injecting yourself into the situation. And once the wedding has occurred, the window of opportunity, however unfortunately small, has pretty much closed.

But tweek the scenario a little. If I have a valued friend who is about to jump off a relationship cliff, do I give them solicited or unsolicited advice based on incomplete knowledge or a gut feelings? Maybe I do, maybe I don’t, it is a complex decision fraught with pitfalls. But I certainly don’t just conclude that I am morally restricted from value judgments, lay my head on the pillow, and dream of rainbows and unicorns.

A total aside, from someone who has served in the military. The whole plan to get a medical discharge, for “back problems,” over the contestations of a supervisor, after two years, is a pretty big red flag (for those of us who are comfortable making judgments anyway, for the rest of you I apologize). It is possible that Nancy and Josiah are meant for each other, or individuals like each other. In which case, game on.