BYU student. Now I tell my kids about polyandry before it’s a shocker.

I was 22-23 years old when I started finding it out. I kind of knew things before, but didn’t really connect the dots until I started getting involved in the online world where there were people a lot smarter than me discussing these things at a lot different level than I was.

I didn’t really have any hurdles. I found a couple of people at BYU-Idaho who indulged in my “church study” hobby (though those people were very few and far between), and my wife wasn’t concerned, since (her words, not mine), “It’s better than playing XBOX all day.”

My parents were good with a lot of it, and actually enjoy having conversations with me about it. I think the biggest hurdle would probably be negotiating this ground with my ultra-orthodox in-laws, who, upon seeing that I purchased the David O. McKay book published by the U of U’s press, really started questioning me and giving me a bit of a hard time. They really focus on faith-promoting stories, so many times when we have religious discussions I keep my mouth shut until that night, where I can discuss the nitty gritty details (and my commentary) with my wife later.

Queuno, I think we envy them.

Queuno – that’s my father exactly.

I also think it’s a curiosity thing. Many times, I’ve heard of people encountering more difficult or “sticky” things because they genuinely want to know more. Whether it’s a seminary teacher who wants to do the best job teaching the teenagers the history behind the D&C or the gospel doctrine teacher who really wants to understand the Book of Abraham before his lesson that week, it comes from curiousity.

Now that’s not saying that people who don’t learn more about this stuff aren’t curious (or, by the opposite, they are ignorant), but how many times in an off-track lesson have you heard people say “Is this really relevant?” or “Is this pertinent to my salvation?”

Yeah, you’re right. I guess that begs the question of NH, what are you questioning?

This is kind of off the subject, but I just remembered this funny thing. Well, I think it’s funny. Richard Dutcher is one of my FB friends and he recently got REALLY mad at God without explaining why. Boy, did he tell God off on FB! Bad words and everything.

What made me think of that is I’ve never questioned whether God exists, but I’ve sure questioned His level of commitment to my happiness. I haven’t questioned The First Vision or The Plan of Salvation, but I’ve questioned whether my bishop has the spirit or not. I’ve questioned the Christianity of my fellow ward members.

Actually, that sounds more like judging. Whatever.

My sweet, devout aunt told me recently that she remembers when I was ten, I asked her, “What if the church isn’t true?” I have no memory of this, and it surprised me to think that I was already wondering back then. Still wondering…

I’m a very questioning person. My problem is I assumed if I asked questions, the answers I received told the full story. Church correlated materials do not. It isn’t that I started questioning at the age of 27. It’s that the age of 27 was my first exposure to answers that DIDN’T serve to strengthen my testimony.

I’ve questioned church history. I question everything. I’m not sure we even really exist. Sometimes I scare myself to death when I realize “what the heck am I, really?” Why did you ask me that?

I don’t recall making that point. I just found it charmingly funny how you referred to your age. It’s so relative. When I was 17, a 30 year old guy started courting me. He had a good job and ! good manners, a nice car (always important to me as a teenager). He was Basque, tall, dark, incredibly handsome and he was smitten with me (no clue why, I was kind of chubby and stupid).

I was grossed out. I thought “why is this old man bothering me?” It didn’t get very far and I would never actually go on a date with him.

Now, 30 year olds seem like infants. On our trip, I sat by two 30 year olds who were flattered that I thought they were just out of high school (do you go to college? what high school do you go to?).

Which has absolutely nothing to do with your post. Sorry.

I meant what I said about envying those who don’t question. I believe they have less conflict in their lives and perhaps, are better at surrendering to God’s will.

One thing that makes people mad at me is how I always ask “why?” “Why are we doing it that way? etc.) It’s an argumentative question a lot of the time, but for me, it’s sincere. I need to understand the “why” to put concepts, actions, etc. into reality. Causes fights all the time because Bill gets his back up, thinking I’m actually saying “why the hell did you think up this stupid thing?” I often have to make the distinction and convince people I really want to understand.

I joined the church in my early 20′s. A faithful member of the church gave me a copy of “A Book of Mormons”, which has brief warts-and-all bios of early members.
Full text online here: http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=16636

My grandfather, a devout Presbyterian, sent me some anti-Mormon literature.

The former let me know that early leaders were human, and that early church history was “messy”. The latter was so easily refuted by my basic knowledge of the Bible and plain logic, that I realized that the antis would twist anything in attacking Mormonism.

Fortunately, what brought me into the church in the first place were some very powerful spiritual experiences. An earlier investigation of evangelical/pentecostal Christianity (which didn’t last long) when I was 14 actually laid the foundation of my later conversion to the restored gospel.

I had learned at age 14 that the things God does, and the way he interacts with mankind does not make sense from a worldly standpoint, or from a basis of human reasoning. I also learned that the evangelicals and pentecostals are generally closer to the Bible than the more staid mainstream protestant religions with their watered down doctrine and traditions.

EVERY religion has a messy history. The Old Testament is messy, starting with Adam and Eve raising a murderer. The prophet-king David killing one of his friends so he could marry his wife. God punishing the prophet Moses’ brother and sister, and even often rebuking and disciplining Moses. Judah had sex, and a child, with his daughter-in-law, thinking she was a prostitute. God told the prophet Hosea to marry a prostitute. On and on.

People called Moses a liar because he said he would take them to the promised land, and then told them they were all, those over 20 years old, going to die in the desert.

In the NT, the apostles changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, even though the OT said the 7th day was to be a PERPETUAL sabbath. Paul rebuked the prophet Peter about being two-faced in regards to the gentile thing. They had disagreements. They snarked at each other in their epistles.

Paul constantly had problems in the churches he set up, as evidenced by the epistles in the NT, and the Lord’s rebuke of some in the book of Revelation.

My conclusion is that “THE” church has always been messy, since the days of Adam. But that doesn’t negate the prophet or the priesthood.

Sometimes, the Lord revokes something, not because the prophet got it wrong, but because the people wouldn’t accept it, or wouldn’t obey the conditions of receiving it. The adult children of Israel got their ticket to the promised land revoked, because they wouldn’t believe that the Lord would fight their battles against the seemingly superior people who already inhabited the land. They had the higher law and higher priesthood revoked, and got the lesser law and priesthood instead.

The early saints in Missouri screwed up too. Read the 7 volume History of the Church. They claimed they couldn’t build the temple because of the opposition. But Joseph Smith said that had they made sufficient effort to build the temple in Jackson County, the Lord would have taken care of their problems. Sounds an awful lot like the OT story of getting the promised land delayed.

If you read some of the stupid (JS’s words were “dough-headed”) things the Missouri saints said to taunt their neighbors, you might even think they were at least partly responsible for the persecution.

As I’ve followed the history of challenges by critics and responses by apologists, new discoveries eventually answer the challenges. For instance, an early challenge was that there was no barley in america when europeans arrived. Well, archeologists eventually found ancient barley.

There were no horses when europeans arrived, but archeologists eventually found horse statues. Plus, there are large areas of Asia where no ancient horse bones have ever been found, but history shows that there were definately horses there.

Eventually, answers come. The Bible promises that EVENTUALLY all mysteries will be revealed.

My conclusion is that God ALLOWS questions or mysteries or problems to exist as a test of faith. He doesn’t have to cause problems, we create enough on our own. But we can’t expect him to always come to our rescue and immediately fix the problems or questions which we ourselves create.

I remember when the story broke about the salamander question (I don’t remember the details ). I remember sitting on my couch with the newspaper in my hand asking myself if I believed the Church was true. There seemed to be evidence it wasn’t. I decided I did believe the Church was true and moved to the next article in the paper. Of course the salamander story was a hoax. I have always been glad I chose the Church even in light of damaging “evidence.”.

When I was about ten, my grandfather – my father’s father – sat me down at the kitchen table and started talking about church related stuff. I don’t recall exactly what he was talking about, but I recall he’d lay out facts to me and then ask me what I thought. I recall him saying at one point something to this effect, ‘let me tell you, Tommy, you’ll hear these two things at church, but these two things don’t wash (warsh).’ But I had already been hearing my father and grandfather having these kind of conversations for years. So much so that I believed such speculative conversations, where everything was on the table, were not only acceptable but were an inherent part of being a Mormon. It wasn’t till I was an adult that it really dawned on me that some of the people around me would be uncomfortable hearing doctrines questioned or explored.

Book, very wise post. In many ways. I think you’re my brother from another mother. I, too, went to Pentacostal meetings and I think we could learn a few things from them. Did you know there’s a sect of ancient Jews whose meetings resembled theirs, complete with the dancing, etc.?

Mcq, well said.

Thomas, your grandfather sounds awesome.

Ed, that’s why I love the bloggernacle. I didn’t feel so alone.

LIZ, thanks for that link. The take-away quote, at least for me, is: “… trust in our personal experiences with divinity must sometimes outweigh our rational morality.”

Bookslinger said, “Fortunately, what brought me into the church in the first place were some very powerful spiritual experiences.”

The spiritual experiences, the testimony from the Holy Ghost, is the only way to survive the turmoil that has happened, is happening, and will happen in the world. It is easy to find reasons not to believe.

My experience is much like Bookslinger’s, although I was raised in the church, off and on. I had a couple of powerful spiritual experiences in my lifetime which have left no doubts in my mind.

It is often difficult to subjugate reason to spiritual manifestations, yet those manifestations are as real to me as getting burned by hot water from the radiator of an automobile. I have experienced both.

It is also possible to lose that testimony once having received it. I had one person tell me that he had received a revelation on the Book of Mormon so strong that it was like someone yelling Yes! Yes! at the top of their lungs to him. Yet, later, he came to doubt the validity of that experience and came to doubt the veracity of the Book of Mormon.

There was a time that I let my own spiritual life decline for a prolonged period of time and those spiritual experiences began to fade from my consciousness. I found my self in rather deep trouble at one time and even left the church. However, there was a grain of something deep within me that I did not lose and I when I began praying and trying to lead a spiritual life again, those memories came back.

I have read much of the critical stuff on the Book of Abraham, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc. and just do not worry about it. Much like evolution, etc. I have never met God (in this life) personally. But I know that He exists just as well as I know that any city on this planet exists that I have never seen or been to. That is, I have received some pretty credible reports that cities such as Moscow and Paris exist.

I have had some pretty credible reports that God exists, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I’m not going to worry about naysayes who do not know the full story.

Glenn

Jenn, I can remember reading scriptures before I was a teen. Reading about all the screw-ups by various prophets and leaders in the Old Testament. From there on out it has been nothing but imperfect men, seeing through a glass, darkly, just as Paul wrote.

Part of the problem is that much of what you encounter depends on how you encounter it and in what context. I was twenty-two or so when I encountered German religious scholars who asserted that Jericho did not exist and that most of the locations in the Bible were fraudulent — but that was about the same time those locations were being discovered. Of course the movement I was reading was old hat by the time I read it, but it was a good experience in understanding the limited knowledge of scholars and historians.

That lesson has been with me since.

What probably sealed it was studying the Ba’l cycle. Baal (contrary to the Bible Dictionary parts inherited from the free dictionary we got with the printing of the King James Version and that has been updated mostly just for places where the theology jarred terribly) rides on the storm, has two hammers (thunder and lightening), is defeated by the summer drought, has the god of irrigation pretend to his throne and returns with the winter storms. His hymns are very similar to many of the Psalms and other poetry in the Bible.

Now the explanation for that (the hymn/psalm issue) I got from early scholars was that the Hebrews just stole it all and thought no one would notice.

More modern scholars actually read the material and note that the Psalms often are written in ways that assume that the audience is familiar with the Baal version, and that there are differences that are comparing and contrasting — working off the difference (thus God never fails, for example, while Baal fails every year).

I guess I see so much in the way of that sort of thing. Someone encounters a “fact” and goes from there.

Without context, without the Spirit and without a conclusion that fits the truth.

When Glenn writes I let my own spiritual life decline for a prolonged period of time and those spiritual experiences began to fade from my consciousness my father noted the same thing over and over again through the years with people he knew and experiences they had shared.

We talked about examples of this in priesthood last Sunday.

Anyway, my two bits on the subject.

Because I am not much interested in history, I don’t care. I did go on a tangent once wondering when John the Baptist was baptized because it seemed important at the time. I eventually got the answer.

It seems to be one of those’Too close to the edge of the cliff’ situations to me. I’m too busy trying to read my scriptures, read conference talks, prepare Primary lessons, say my prayers and keep my testimony intact to be concerned that the Temple Ceremony has changed a couple of times since we joined the church, and oh my, who was wron to do it that way in the first place?. Or what mistakes were made by MEN a hundred years ago. My concern is getting myself and my family through the fiery furnace of the world today and hopefully all be together in the one to come, to make an keep loving friendships, to stay close to extended family. I won’t concern myself with things that don’t actively help me attain those goals. The past… my own or the Churche’s… is chiefest among the things I don’t bother with.

It seems like a theme of the comments is “facts can be difficult to process or not, but a spiritual witness will withstand the test”. So what do you say to someone who only ever had facts? I was a darn good mormon for 27 years, and never got a spiritual witness of anything other than God loves me, and mormonism is(was) good for me. I tried countless times to get the witness promised in Moroni, and concluded maybe God thought I didn’t need it because I understood how logical belief in the church was. When the logic fell apart (because it can’t stand on empirical knowledge alone), my testimony did too.
The biggest single factor in my husband and my current disaffection is that we have not gotten a spiritual witness of the aspects of the church we are leaving behind (veracity of the book of mormon, authority of the priesthood, the existence of some universal, eternal truth, necessity of ordinances to salvation). As a matter of fact, I feel I’ve gotten the opposite spiritual confirmation: God doesn’t want me to believe in those things anymore. They were so good for me and helped shape who I am as a person, but I’m not getting good out of those beliefs anymore.

Considering I’ve been promised the gift of the Holy Ghost, and my husband and I have honored all of our covenants and done all the standard sunday school answers, seeking spiritual witness with sincerity and “pure intent”, I’m inclined to think “well, maybe it really just isn’t for me.”
Thoughts?

Lol, Ed- that’s pretty much exactly the response I’ve gotten from those I’ve asked. It must be some sin. *sigh*

I’ve felt the spirit in R-rated movies, like Amelie and Braveheart. I’ve felt it at music concerts surrounded by pot smokers (I didn’t partake, before you start thinking that’s how I lost the spirit;)). I’ve felt confirm something to me then later on felt it confirm something contradictory. In the end, I believe that perhaps spiritual truth, while possibly still divine, is a bit more relative than we feel comfortable admitting. I’ve always had the spiritual help I’ve needed at that time to lead me to living a righteous, joyous life. But it isn’t a universal, eternal truth that should apply to everyone in all circumstances.

I don’t believe God intents for everyone to be in the same church. I think the main thing is acceptance, unconditional love, and appreciation for our neighbors wherever they may be. For some folks it helps to be a part of this church, for others it’s in the words of Buddha. In the scriptures where it talks about gifts, not everyone gets the gift of having spiritual experiences. I know I haven’t had anything life changing, just a few answered prayers that most members would find trivial at best. Part of it is probably my age, part of it could be that I simply won’t have that blessing in this life.

a voice from germany… I was 15 when I joined my guest-family in provo/utah. my father (guest-father) is the local bishop and I had a great time there. i started to think about my own religion because everything seemed more complete to me. the feeling, not only the religious feeling but also the whole togetherness among families, friends and neighbours was absolutely new for me. i believe, that our religion can be a great guide for life. greetings from bavaria, germany.

Thank you for dropping in, dilem, nice thoughts.

Natsy, your honesty is commendable. It reminds me of “Reaching for the Invisible God” by Phillip Yancey. He’s not a Mormon, but in his book, he discusses the crises of faith many great religious experienced and makes the case that only the faithful do have doubts.

I think it’s more that those who long to be faithful need to explore their doubts more fully. There are many faithful who are truly committed or have personalities that don’t need to question. Others truly do not care enough to doubt anything. I say it’s all good and that God is mindful of all of us.

I’m kind of laissez-faire that way.

Natsy, i hope you know that you are not alone. There are many people that have had and are still having similar questions. The ones you are asking are very common to a lot of people, in my experience, and I have had some of the same ones myself.

This part:

There are billions of people all over the world who have met the missionaries, heard the talks, said the prayers and decided that mormonism wasn’t for them. If this is the one TRUE church, what does that mean? They have a “testimony” of the truthfulness of their own religions and I can’t disregard that.

is especially familiar to me because it’s something my son keeps saying to me. I can understand why it causes questions. As a missionary, I was frustrated when people didn’t just see the truth of the gospel right away. I had prayed and asked the question of God that we all must ask and I had a very difinitive answer, and so I wondered “why isn’t everyone else getting the same answer I got?” I met a lot of good people who I came to love and I wanted so badly for them to join the Church and I was shocked to discover that they were happy with their current faith and saw no need to change.

And you know what? They were right. For them, at that moment, there was no need to change. Everyone is on their own journey and it’s an eternal journey. Everyone needs to hear the truth but not everyone needs to accept it right now. They will be just fine, and they will accept it when the time is right for them. I believe that God has a lot more patience and understanding of his children than we give him credit for.

That doesn’t change the fact that, for me, the question I asked was answered. I know where God wants me to be right now, and I have to be true to that as best I can, and also be understanding of the fact that I can’t answer that question for anyone but me. Just as you can’t answer it for anyone but you. Where does God want you to be right now? If he wants you in the temple, he will tell you.

I think we may be doing a disservice to our own people by not emphasizing the temple endowment as the goal in our lives. We teach girls that their goal is temple marriage, but we hardly ever talk to them about the endowment, which is arguably much more important as an ordinance. We teach boys that their goal is to serve a mission, but some will never serve missions for one reason or another and we lose them because we haven’t given them the more important goal: the covenants made in the endowment. Why aren’t we teaching the endowment as the goal? Why aren’t we preparing people to receive it? It’s like we’re scared to talk about it. It’s an afterthought, when it really should be central.

That’s why people freak out when they actually see it, because they’re not prepared for it, and it doesn’t fit with any other part of our program or worship services. It’s like an anachronism. Why?

The garment is just to remind us of the covenants we make in the endowment. Nothing more or less. We should feel priviledged to wear it, but it’s nothing to get worked up about. It’s not conferring salvation on anyone, and if you don’t wear it sometimes, you don’t lose your salvation. It’s just a symbol of what we can receive if we are true to the covenants it symbolizes.

Anyway, good luck Natsy! I hope you find the answers you need. Till then, try not to sweat it too much.

I second every word Mcq and Living in Zion have said. Such wisdom.

Mcq, you’re fortunate, as a very young person (all my flirting aside, I know you’re a child) to have come to that spiritual awakening. I wasted so much time shoving the gospel fanatically down the throats of my loved ones.

My paradigm shift came when James killed himself (I think he would be about your age, hon). I started obsessively investigating near death experiences. None of them discuss the Lord asking for a person’s temple recommend, at least at first. And truly, no religion has more documentation of near death experiences than we do.

I’m a believer, but I also totally believe your conclusions as well. Well said.

Natsy, Mere Christianity rocked my world. A Grief Observed was also a revelation because Lewis shared without embarrassment his anger and disappointment with God.

Thank you everyone for your responses! They have given me a lot of think about and provided comfort and support. :)