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DKL, I love your phrase “broken child of the restoration,” in all sincerity. I am broken, I am a child of the restoration, and I love the juxtaposition of the two. That phrase will stay with me, and I thank you for it. As for the rest of the post, I am not inclined to defend myself. I think you’ve mischaracterized the piece, but I’m happy simply to point that out and let folks decide for themselves what I was saying, if they care enough to do so. Cheers! |
Well said. The chilliness of Welch’s tone strikes me as entirely out of proportion to the rather banal substance of her critiques. In other words, it’s obvious she harbors some ill will toward Mormon Stories, but I don’t think this article makes it at all clear why. (For those of you who doubt the tone of her piece is hostile, imagine a non-Mormon journalist writing that the Mormon Church, with the “predictability” and “insipid moral grounding” of its members’ testimonies, has all the importance of a Save the Whales Club at a junior high school.) |
Hey–I was totally in a Save the Whales Club in Junior High! Look: we saved them. |
I guess I just read Rosalynde’s piece more narrowly than you did, DKL. I didn’t take it as a general broadside against everything Mormon Stories does or has ever done. I saw her as making a pointed critique of something claimed on the MS website re: the purpose of the community, and I thought she was careful not to stray beyond her limited purpose. But obviously, lots of folks have not understood it that way, so what do I know? Perhaps I should read it again. I do think much of your critique hits the mark with respect to many Mormons though, both on- and offline. And your pejorative comments about our cult-like qualities are always welcome. (Because they’re true, and can’t be said often or loudly enough). Aaron B |
Well said – my wife is addicted to Mormon Stories and I know that for her (and quite a few of my friends), it has been a life saving raft in quite a storm. |
I found it curious that Rosalynde did not disclose her relationship with Jack Welch. The author’s bias seems rather apparent and the reader should know that a personal relationship might also have a thumb on the scale. On the topic of disclosure, I left the church a decade ago and started leaving it alone somewhere just shy of that. I’ve been tangentially aware of Mormon Stories through a friend who is going through his own crisis and has been consuming the podcasts in a successful effort to reassess his evolving belief system and to save his marriage. We talk about many of the topics he has encountered, and while I would agree with Rosalynde that much of it is rehashed material, Mormon Stories presents it in a format that fits my friend’s needs. (He is not inclined to read the many articles, books and blogs that have covered these topics in depth.) Therefore, I would posit the premise that Dehlin has indeed filled a void. |
David, I’m not sure the overheated rhetoric you are using to misdescribe and criticize Rosalynde’s article is justified. Call her ignorant once, it’s hyperbole. Call her ignorant five times, it’s a boomerang. She publishes at Patheos and the St. Louis Dispatch, and here we are puttering around on blogs. If there’s a best candidate for ignorance among us, it’s not her. A few specific points: 1. She was objective, even charitable, in her description of Mormon Stories and John Dehlin: “Mormon Stories is an online community centered on a series of podcasts exploring controversial elements of Mormonism and the process of moving away from typical forms of church membership and belief. Dehlin is a charismatic figure and a lightning rod for the cultural tensions the church is experiencing in this political moment, and he has attracted both adulation and criticism.” 2. Her point about the two stated goals of Mormon Stories being inconsistent seems perfectly accurate. Even if you force that assertion into the mathematical analogy she used, she is still correct. It’s your riposte that isn’t quite coherent: “Values measured on separate axes are never in direct conflict with one another; that’s why they’re on separate axes.” The concept you are grasping for (ironically) is correlation, and values can be uncorrelated, positively correlated, or negatively correlated. Her point (had she extended the analogy) would be that social community acts to fashion or control narratives, which seems quite clearly to be negatively correlated with “authentic self-expression,” at least authentic expression which doesn’t fit the sponsored narrative. That is certainly borne out by Dehlin’s unfortunate habit (which I have heard recounted from a number of individuals) of deleting comments at his various sites that don’t agree with his views or opinions. That’s not fostering authentic expression, that’s controlling the narrative. See the tension? 3. She did not call Mormon Stories silly. What she called silly was the specific idea that Mormons Stories would fill an information void about LDS history. She points out that the void did not really exist in 2001 or in 2004. She’s correct: it didn’t exist. Perhaps silly was the wrong word to use, but her observation is certainly accurate. 4. Lest I sound like I’m criticizing Mormon Stories rather than defending Rosalynde, I’m happy to say some nice things about the site. The interviews are very entertaining and informative. Dehlin features guests that are truly from across the entire spectrum of LDS opinion, a rare accomplishment for any forum. I have enjoyed the dissenters and former Mormons as much as the LDS scholars and apologists. It’s the technology and the business model — podcasts that are available for free download and the emergence of a subscriber and donor community that supports the whole operation — that make Mormon Stories unique, not the content. It has been far more popular and successful than one might have thought when the project first got started. Dehlin deserves a lot of credit for making the project a success and for keeping it going. |
This is my take on the situation, in layman’s terms. Some intellectuals have been fighting for years with other intellectuals about certain church doctrine/history issues. Some got excommunicated. The bloggernacle started and some time in there a group called FAIR/FARMS (associated with Neal A. Maxwell?) also started and they were kind of stuck up and intellectual and didn’t like anybody who disagreed with them. The church got more lenient and stopped ex’ing people over everything and some people became braver about voicing their doubts. Some were going through gut-wrenching life questions. John Dehlin was one of them. He figured it out that you didn’t have to leave the church if you didn’t agree with everything and said so very eloquently. He got a following. He started a whole movement and travels the country and is now famous (which concerns me because can the message get lost in the celebrity of the messenger?). He did podcasts of people who left the church or didn’t leave and he pointed out a lot of problems in the church, which to me seemed at times to be reaching. At other times, I agreed. Dan Peterson hated him and wrote something bad about John and John, who, unbeknownst to me, got his friend who is an Apostle, to fire Dan. This is the part that really bugs me. It seems so vindictive. I asked John about this, but he blew me off. Which doesn’t mean anything because everybody does. And now everybody is fighting and my friends are fighting my other friends and it’s totally the Civil War and not fun. |
Oh! And Dan didn’t say John killed somebody and John didn’t anyway. |
Count me among the many surprised by Rosalynde’s condescending tone. But, in fact, none of her punches really land: Re: Authenticity. It may be true that followers of Mormon Stories are no more “authentic” than Mormons or members of any religious or social group, but who cares? Her point is meant to dismiss followers of Mormon Stories, but if true, it really dismisses human beings in general. If as individuals we are simply the sum total of the opinions/beliefs of the groups to which we belong, then none of us are authentic. We try on various sizes or colors of “authenticity” like so many wardrobes until we find the one that “fits” best and call that “real” or “true” or “healthy”. Re: “Health” as the dominant value in the Mormon Stories community. As opposed to “traditional Christian categories of truth and salvation.” Again, I’d disagree. The search for “truth” seems to be as big a motivating factor for most listeners of Mormon Stories as “health,” if not bigger. And most MS listeners are probably seeking some form of “salvation” as well, though they would not be likely to use that particular word as it is so laden with religions/Mormon connotations. (Witness, for example, the many people in the comments following Welch’s article that claim MS “saved” their life, or family, or church membership, etc.) Re: “Intelligence (or lack thereof) of MS discourse.” I’m not sure how someone who has read LDS lesson manuals and listened to sacrament meeting talks for the past 30+ years, let alone read the bloggernacle for the past dozen years can make that statement? In the end the article reveals more about the author than it does about Mormon Stories or its followers. Too bad, because the first few paragraphs of the article had the makings of a nice, even-handed look at Mormon Stories and its place in the greater Mormon discussion. |
And my feelings about this post: I don’t think Rosalynde’s piece is tragic. It’s an opinion. I don’t accept it as research, either. Frankly, I don’t think anybody knows the truth yet. On Mormon Discussions, it appears that John (posting as Sunbeam) confirms that he did become aware of a highly critical paper about him (I’m confused who actually wrote it) and threatened to call the general authorities about it. That’s kind of cringe-worthy, David. I don’t like that. Again, however, who knows what the hell really happened? Much of what Rosalynde (and you, DKL) is couched in such high brow language that I’m not sure exactly what either of you was trying to say (except Rosalynde is ticked at John and you’re ticked at her?), BUT I am bothered by the idea that we need some people to spell out the church intellectually for us and that our church and spiritual lives are empty without that. Huh? I can do my own thinking and if I’m not a Phd. or genius, well, that’s between me and God. On the other hand, I didn’t detect animosity in Rosalynde’s paper to the extent that you did, David. Any more than any other Times and Seasons blogger who thinks their butts are a bit more golden than the rest of us plebians (although Rosalynde has always been very kind to me). It wasn’t anything unusual and I could relate to a few parts of it. However, my bottom line on what you wrote, David, is that forget what Rosalynde or John or Dan said or did, I’m once again astounded at your ability to voice my feelings so articulately. These points bear repeating: “The need for Mormon Stories arises from the tendency Mormons have to value each other based on how well they echo or amplify the opinions of LDS leaders. Mormons who cease to echo or amplify these opinions often discover that there is little or no bond of personal loyalty or compassion underlying their relationships with loved ones. As a consequence, the Mormon who suffers a crisis of faith frequently faces rejection and ultimatums from family members, including her spouse. She sometimes even finds herself accused of disobedience or immorality. In a sense, the Mormons are a morally handicapped people; their tendency to value members based on their alignment with LDS leadership limits Mormons’ potential for virtue by rendering them less capable of loyalty and compassion.” “. . .implicitly stigmatizes those who are not acquainted with “some basic church history” as stupid.” “Every organization maintains a tension between authenticity and community. The LDS church, as Welch’s report demonstrates, is heavily biased toward community and conformity.” “. . .it’s more important to understand what other Mormons have to say than to assess its alignment with the status quo, that it’s more important to find out what we can learn from others than accuse them of not knowing as much as they should, that it’s more important to practice our religion with charity than to parse organizational smoke-signals to determine who is and isn’t a legitimate Mormon.” Wouldn’t the bottom line be that those who have decided the church needs protecting from those who question have condemned the questioners, presuming to speak for God? I think it’s about hurt feelings. |
Dave, the funny thing about your comment is that you claim that I call Rosalynde ignorant 5 times. In fact, I call her ignorant once and refer back to that twice. The other two uses of the term “ignorance” appear as summaries of Rosalynde’s view of the participants of Mormon Stories. So next time you want to start accusing people of using “overheated rhetoric,” you may want to check your own. |
Paragraph 10: “Welch demonstrates a profound ignorance …” Paragraph 10: “Welch’s ignorance …” Paragraph 11: “Welch’s ignorance …” That’s three times. |
I continue to be amazed by some of Welch’s defenders. Here is why: 1) Welch describes Dehlin’s crisis of faith as his discovery of “some basics of early church history.” Basics for whom? Let’s see how many members of the LDS Church actually consider these things basic. This is a standard disingenuous defense of LDS apologists. It is the idea that if only you had read everything the Church has published over the last five decades, you might have run across that article in the Ensign which mentioned Joseph Smith’s use of a seerstone, or some similar issue. I have no doubt that Ms. Welch knows something about LDS Church History, but she is also in a very small minority of the members of the LDS Church who actually do. 2) She takes Dehlin to task for his goal of providing an unbiased repository of historical information. This is “silly” in her view, because of the existence of BYU Studies, Dialogue, Sunstone, and Irreantum. I find it stunning that she views this as some kind of effective critique of Dehlin’s aspirations. Let’s start with the last publication first: Irreantum is a review of literature and film. BYU Studies is a journal run by Ms. Welch’s father-in-law that represents faithful LDS scholarship on Mormon topics. Dialogue is the journal Nate Oman took to task for not being welcoming of the very same people apostles warned off of paying attention to, or participating in “other voices.” Sunstone is a very similar case. Which other Mormon resource in the past decade has been so open to disparate view points and so easily accessible to everyone as Mormon Stories? Which other Mormon resource has featured both Daniel Peterson and Grant Palmer. What Ms. Welch seems to have missed is that John Dehlin actually succeeded in achieving the very thing that Nate Oman complained about the lack of: he created a forum in which both faithful and critical voices would be able to have their say, and everyone with access to the internet could access it for FREE. I find this far more representative of the value of Mormon Stories than the following statement from Welch: “What was novel about Dehlin’s project, it seems to me, was its non-textual platform—podcasts rather than essays or articles—and the edge of anger in the social community surrounding the podcasts that was generally taboo in mainstream Mormon blog discussions at the time.” While the comment about technology is spot on, her failure to miss the crucial point about its inclusiveness, and to replace that with a focus on “anger” reveals very clearly to me her bias. 3) As has been pointed out elsewhere by those who attended the Boston Mormon Stories Conference, Ms. Welch has misrepresented Laurel Thatcher Ulrich’s reaction to her Mormon Stories experience. Ms. Ulrich was, according to eyewitnesses, quite moved by the personal narratives she heard in the conference. She did not intend her commentary as a critique of Mormon Stories, but as a statement on personal narrative in general, something she is eminently qualified to do. It takes real talent to turn these constructive comments into a backhanded compliment to the Mormon Stories community. One participant in the Boston conference comments in response to Welch: “While Ulrich did illustrate how communities inform narratives, I don’t think it was intended to be an irony lost on her listeners. It explained how the pattern for these religious narratives are nothing new.” 4) I am troubled by the facile way in which community and health are dismissed as values that are subordinate somehow to the salvation and truth of the Gospel. I would suggest rather that health (salvation coming from that Latin “salus,” meaning health or well being) and community (D&C 130:2, “And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory….”) stand at the very center of the Gospel. It is sad that for a number of LDS people, the apologists prominent among them, a certain idiosyncratic orthodoxy, which seems to be representative of the views of some of the apostles, but not others, has replaced these values. 5) Finally, I am confused about her ambiguous comments concerning gay-straight alliances. Is she dismissing both Mormon Stories and these groups as insignificant? Her overall tone suggests to me that she was, and I don’t think that reveals a very sympathetic or compassionate author. There are a couple of other points that I think ought to be cleared up concerning John Dehlin and the Maxwell Institute: 1) John Dehlin is not responsible, directly or indirectly, with the replacement of Daniel Peterson as editor of the Mormon Studies Review. This was the decision of his boss at the institute M. Gerald Bradford, and it has been supported by Cecil Samuelson, President of the BYU, and emeritus General Authority. What is more unusual by far is that one man should be the chief editor of an academic journal for over twenty years. That in itself would be reason enough to look for new blood. 2) I find it mystifying in a culture that is steeped in the importance of priesthood authority that John Dehlin is viewed negatively for seeking help from LDS Church authorities in preventing the publication of what could only be described, by academic standards, as a completely illegitimate article for an academic journal bearing the title, “Mormon Studies Review.” If any of you doubt my skepticism regarding this piece that I have not read, go read Greg Smith’s piece in which he unfairly dissects Laura Compton on the basis of her role at the Mormons4Marriage discussion board. That kind of nonsense is not worthy of publication in an academic journal on the campus of a major American university. So, on the one hand we have a journal, purporting to be scholarly, operating on the campus of an LDS Church-owned university, on whose board sits the leadership of the Church, and on the other hand we have a member of that Church who discovers from a friend that this journal is, in the words of this friend, “about to publish a hit piece” on him. Forgive me if I don’t come down hard on John for seeking help against this quasi-institutional steamrolling. Forgive me if I don’t weep tears of sorrow for the sacking of the editor who should have known better than to “promote” his university by tearing apart the members of his own church. |
I read Rosalynde’s piece this morning, and I think she’s actually pretty spot on. My feeling about Mormon Stories is 1)the podcasts are WAAAYY too long 2)It really is a place for people struggling with ordinaryness as much as with religion. Sure, Mormon stories gets a few good, interesting people on their podcasts (it just needs a much better editor to highlight what is worthwhile), but the community seems to be made up of people who want to see themselves as “special” and “enlightened” in comparison to TBMs, instead of viewing themselves as rather ordinary participants in a societal shift away from traditional religious beliefs. There are few true intellectuals or scientists, and little insightful discourse in the community (at least, from what I’ve seen of it). Rosalynde’s parallel between MS and a high school club seems about right to me. It’s full of people with more desire to “be edgy” and “special” than actual desire to add something valuable to the discourse (that said, a number of people who participate are interesting and do add value to the discourse on Mormonism, but quite a few of them seem less-than-fully-sold on MS, and they seem to be in the small minority). |
…the tendency…to value each other based on how well they echo or amplify the opinions of LDS leaders. This is an interesting observation. It’s a sort based on being “like me” or “not like me”, in other words Mormons sort each other and others for inclusion or exclusion based prejudiced thinking (“like me”, “not like me”). While this is a normal human tendency this seems very pronounced since the sort tends to exclude even those who self identify as Mormons! Mormon’s also claim to be Christian but this is certainly not Christian behavior, I don’t see members of the Christian mega church I sometimes attend acting like this! So one’s acceptance as a Mormon or into Mormon subgroups is strongly conditional because Mormons are strongly prejudice! What happened to love one another? |
so let me get this straight… “it’s more important to find out what we can learn from others than accuse them of not knowing as much as they should” but rosalynde “demonstrates a profound ignorance of the landscape of Mormon online communities” so her opinion should not be trusted. am i the only one who is confused by these double standards? |
Dave, your references underscore what I say in my comment: “I call her ignorant once and refer back to that twice.” You’re the one who asserted, “Call her ignorant five times, it’s a boomerang.” As you point out, I do not call her ignorant 5 times. That makes you wrong once and repetitive once. Seriously, who on earth would call Rosalynde Welch ignorant FIVE TIMES!?!? If you’re not careful, I may call you ignorant like 6 or 7 times. |
Howard, checked out all the different divisions in the Catholic Church lately? Islam? Nothing like members of the same church to go to the mattresses over differing opinions. |
I don’t think you get a lifetime pass to use the phrase “Welch’s ignorance,” yet claim that’s simply a reference to some earlier statement so it doesn’t count. I’m happy to agree that, on a second careful reading, it was three times. |
Dave, you’re ignorant (1 down, 5 or 6 to go). |
annegb, I’m very glad that you’ve commented, but I want to make sure that something is very clear to observers here. A key purpose of the FARMS Review was to silence scholars by establishing who was a reliable believer and who was an unreliable apostate (note: there are no unreliable believers). This is part of how the church propagates the view that certain scholars must be treated with suspicion. The purpose of the recent piece that was to be published on John Dehlin was to establish that he was an unreliable apostate. When they tried to attack John, they went a bridge too far. The fact that someone finally got someone at FARMS to cease printing its smears is a big deal and a very good thing. There are those stupid enough to believe that they should be able to read it and decide for themselves, and that’s a fashionable thing to say that has a certain ring of fair-mindedness. The truth is that these sorts of character assassinations need to be taken off of the table. Some may insist, “but if you hadn’t read the piece on John, how can you know?” At some point, someone read it who was in a position to make a decision, and they evidently did not think that it was worth going to the mat for. Furthermore, when the FARMS Review has spent the better part of 2 decades running down perceived critics of the church personally, it’s too much to insist that this one last time was going to be the exception. |
“a fatal error or a brilliant accident is yet to be seen” — I’m not sure that saying John may be brilliant is that hostile #22 I never experienced FARMS as having a purpose of silencing anyone, but then, I was only involved with it when it was Jack Welch’s baby, on a table in his office. I confess that when events of 1992 overtook me, I ceased to have time for FARMS the entity, though I did follow some of the people. FAIR and FARMS were very different. At least at one time. I only supported FARMS with attention and money in the very, very early days. I was a founding board member of FAIR, though I moved on rather early in the day.
Yes. Though it is important to note that Jack Welch does not seem to have ever been mean spirited. Too easy to paint everyone with a broad brush and miss the fine points. |
http://www.fairblog.org/2012/07/02/its-a-matter-of-relevance/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fairldsblog+%28FAIR+Blog%29 — that was interesting, in this context. |
I adore Mormon stories. It has absolutely been a refuge for me. What would have taken years of confusion and anguish has taken months, of knowing all the issues and more importantly, knowing that others know the same issues and have made a choice to either stay in the church or leave it, and have found happiness in either path- this has been mind-blowing. I can make a choice here, Mormon Stories showed me that, and I am so SO grateful. I don’t always agree with John Dehlin (increasingly moreso) but he will always be a hero to me because of the community he has started. I owe him a great debt. That said, Welch’s article didn’t strike me as a big deal, but maybe I misunderestimate the potential influence/impact of it? It just seems like an opinion piece by someone who doesn’t “get” what Mormon Stories is all about. Oh well, I guess that she’s not the intended audience then. |
If the entire thrust of Dehlin’s presentations, interviews and writings had been solely to help doubting members stay in the church, that would have been admirable. But I think that’s merely a cover story. From his work that I’ve read, watched, and listened to, at least part of his efforts are to help people out the door, or get at least one foot out the door like him. He doesn’t try to answer or resolve doubts or concerns like an apologist. He’s not helping people find plausibility in the church’s foundational truths, or in some of the messier matters of church history. He’s not “creating space” for faith. He’s creating space for doubts and disbelief. He’s more along the lines of confirming or sharing doubt and disbelief. Instead of saying something like “You can stay in the church because there are plausible faithful scenarios which explain this difficult issue”, it’s more like he’s saying “You can stay in the church, because even though I haven’t found satisfactory answers to this issue, I’ve stayed in the church.” Sometimes (though I don’t have handy links to examples, sorry) it’s as if he’s saying “There _are no_ satisfactory answers to this issue.” And that, in effect, confirms the disbelief. This is not a recent thing either. I remember watching his Brigham Young and Priesthood Power-Point presentation years ago, and part way through I was asking myself “Who’s side is this guy on?” Even if few people have actually exited due to Dehlin, a whole LOT of people have moved closer to the exit. At first, I was drawn to Dehlin’s blogs because like him, I too was hurt and disillusioned by some of the chaos, mismanagement, and missionary shenanigans that I saw on my mission. But I finally found faithful answers to the things that challenged me. That’s what I think ought to be the thrust of helping people with challenges to their faith stay in the church, if not “proof”, at least “plausible” answers, or “room for faith.” However, Dehlin seems to be saying “There are no satisfactory faithful answers.” And because of that, I think those who call him a wolf in sheep’s clothing are close to the mark. |
I don’t think he’s saying “there are no satisfactory faithful answers”, he’s saying “I did not yet find a satisfactory answer to this”… and that’s a perfectly legitimate thought- after all, he has not found satisfactory answers- with no subtext or motive. That’s the whole point. “I’m not telling you what you feel or believe, I’m merely telling you my story- and it’s a legitimate story.” Find a single Mormon Story podcast where the person speaking did not sincerely believe what they were saying. People shouldn’t have to be quiet just because their experiences aren’t traditional-faith-promoting. I could tell you my story, with no motive other than to maybe find someone who has been in the same boat, and I bet it would not be faith-inspiring to those who are NOT in the same boat. As a matter of fact, I’ve had experiences that no TBM mormon has found a satisfactory answer to yet- the only options are I’m a liar, a sinner, a fool, or (just maybe) a sincere seeker, on the path I should be. Should I have to stay quiet then? How do I find that satisfactory answer without sharing my potentially faith-destroying experiences and questions? If no satisfactory answer is found, must someone be to blame for that? Is the only option “the church is true and if you can’t see that after researching it and praying about it, you must have bad motives”? The mere fact that THAT many people have “not found satisfactory answers” and are hurt and alone IS a reason for the community to exist. If you can’t blame it on sin, apathy, laziness, or rebellion, how do you explain the disaffection of genuinely sincere, good people who were looking for answers and not finding them? And no, Mormon Stories in general is not a space that creates faith in the organized, correlated, mormon church. I don’t think anyone could claim that anymore. But it kept me in the church longer than anything else I found, because it showed me there were other mormons like me- mormons who stay and mormons who see the good in it and mormons who lift their cognitive dissonance through various means. |
Isn’t it great when the comments after a blog post devolves into mud flinging, painting groups of people with broad brush-strokes? I’ll simply add that I’ve read dozens of comments over the last week or so from people who seem to believe that they’ve grasped every last little tidbit of what’s going on with Mormon Stories, what it’s (secret) agenda is, and what every single one of its supporters believes (or doesn’t). They’ll cite an anecdotal fight between two people about how stupid and ignorant traditional Mormons are, then use that “discussion” to make broad conclusions about the entire community. Bookslinger, did you check out the bill for the Mormon Stories conference earlier this month in SLC? Claudia Bushman, Michael Fife, Jana Reiss? You can even watch their nefarious talks in full. It’s obvious that each one of these devils wants to lead people out of the Church, and John Dehlin has somehow used them as pawns to promote his hidden agenda. Let’s face it guys, a certain percentage of people are going to lose faith when they learn the facts of LDS history. Why shoot the messenger? Because he’s not couching the stuff in enough sugar? I happen to like raw, objective (as far as is possible) analysis of the issues. I want to hear both sides. I don’t insist on starting from the premise that “it’s all true”. Maybe it leads more people away from belief. So be it. But it obviously works for some people. Maybe you like your eggs different. That’s totally cool. But why the need to attack John’s motives? I think there’s plenty of room for constructive criticism on how the Mormon Stories project could improve. But it’s pretty critical to at least understand how it works and why. |
“This is part of how the church teaches average members to view certain scholars with suspicion.” Sorry, but to the average member, there are no such things as blogs outside mormon.org. Any knowledge of Mormon Stories is limited to a fringe movement. And that said, any discussion over what might have happened at the Maxwell Institute fits into the discussion about why are academic fights so vicious (because the stakes are so small). It’s as unimportant to the Church as 150 resignations are… |
“A social community is nothing more than a source of mediating narratives, names, and norms that exist precisely to shape the substrate of basic human perception into meaningful experience. If “authentic” expression is language that arises directly from an unadulterated private conscience, then expression from within a community can only be seen as artificially mediated—it’s simply the nature of the thing.” Balderdash. While Welch’s article is well written doublespeak, it sounds like a thoughtful, intelligent criticism of Mormon Stories, however her notion of what a social community is, in my opinion, utterly non-sensical. I’m glad you pointed this out in your piece, because while Welch sounds authoritative, she is absolutely incorrect in her construct. One shares an unadulterated very personal private thought, idea or belief of such a personal and profound nature with others who listen, understand and accept the right of that person to have his or her opinion, idea or belief as they struggle to come to terms with an event which changes their beliefs, there is nothing artificial about the process at all and any kind of deeper reading or podcast listening would reveal to her that there is anything but a mediating narrative. Well okay, maybe one, the idea that many a faith disturbing discovery cannot be explained satisfactorily within the church. Mormon Stories attempts to help members struggling in their faith or help members on the road ahead when they have lost their faith in the church altogether. Yes, all of the material is available in books and periodicals, but so what? This is simply another outlet designed to help people. |
I’ve read dozens of blog bits and none has attempted to report facts. Rosalynde didn’t do an investigation; she shared her opinion. She wrote it with the excellence she usually writes anything, as did DKL. I still don’t know what happened. I have opinions about “IF this happened, THEN I feel this way” but I am unable to make a conclusion. This is important to me because I’ve really like John; I have some of Bookslinger’s reservations, but overall, I felt it was important to support those who have, for various reasons (including plain old hurt feelings), been marginalized. My testimony is solid and not based on any of what I perceive FARMS/FAIR (sorry still confused) to be about. I do not care about those what-I-perceive-to-be silly arguments about geography or language, etc. It’s based on my personal relationship with God, knowing that my fellow church members are just as moronic as I am, no matter their IQ or intellect. TRUE intelligence involves grace and kindness. Not that I would know. But I want to keep on liking and respecting John; and that’s going to be hard if I find out he really did go to his friend, the apostle (???) and get a piece critical of him blocked. That’s going to go against my grain in a way that many other things never would. Even if (and I’m taking more informed peoples’ word on this, for now) Daniel Peterson is a complete putz and wrote all kind of crazy stuff, it’s going to bug me. Daniel Peterson is not my friend who I put on a pedestal. I keep researching (hell, I’M investigating, forget Rosalynde) and asking, to no avail. John’s not answering that question. As far as I know. |
I agree with queuno–FARMS is no forum to “teach” the general Church populace. They do that in GC and lesson manuals. FARMS doesn’t exist to the vast majority of the membership. This is a tempest in a teapot and the Mormons are pretty focused on their rootbeer. |
annegb, I don’t think it’s fair to accuse John of getting anyone fired. It’s funny to me that the same people who accuse him of being an apostate are also saying he has enough pull with GAs to get someone sacked at BYU. Someone seriously needs to get their story straight. |
Anne, can I simply say that I enjoy your unassuming nature? It’s pretty rare in the blogosphere :) |
I have to agree with Trevor. And this is classic:
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If I had a nickel for every time I saw someone talking past someone else, each thinking the other was on the “other” side of the question, when all that was going on was poor communication, I’d be rich. And a nickel richer over this conversation. DKL’s points are pretty much valid when he talks about what MoSto is and is about, and how mainstream Mormonism has respond to MoSto and the failures in Mormon culture that have made it necessary. Unfortunately, those valid points really don’t have a lot to do with what Sis. Welch wrote that he’s responding to, nominally. Some of them are based in hard-to-fathom misreadings, like his claim that she labeled Sunstone, Dialogue, Irreantum, etc. as “silly” along with MoSto when all she was calling silly was the notion that there was a void of understanding regarding these issues until MoSto came along. Now, she’s still missing the point of that claim, when you do put it back into context of what she said, but to mischaracterize what she was saying so starkly is not DKL’s most shining contribution to the conversation. The void being spoken of was the void of understanding among many members of the Church that any of these questions or issues existed, as well as a void of places in which a “faithful” member could explore these issues. Those resources she mentions are certainly wonderful, and carry lots of useful information that could help these folks, but many “faithful” members have heard cautions about looking into such resources. Much of the reflexive backlash against MoSto is just another round of the fight some in Church leadership have been having with Sunstone and Dialogue for many years. The reason MoSto explicitly points out that it has no intention of becoming another church is that the question has come up from voices in authority. Some more thorough investigation by Sis. Welch would have made that apparent — it’s not mere presumption on the part of John or Anne or anyone else. MoSto is a pretty diverse group, as is the Greater Mormon Community. That some tend to follow similar templates to others when they attempt to tell their own stories really says nothing about the validity of their points, concerns or feelings. No one person speaks for all others in the group on every issue, no matter what group of Mormons you’re speaking of. Dismissing the group because of the shortcomings in communication of some of the people in the group is wrong, no matter what group of humans you’re speaking of. DKL — I think you’ve overstated her ignorance and the importance of that ignorance. Surely, she’s not an expert on the dynamics of the MoSto Community. Just as surely, she hasn’t claimed to be. So what? Everybody’s ignorant about quite a few things. That doesn’t mean they can’t share an opinion on the subject with those who want to hear what they have to say. She said some stuff, some of which I disagree with, and then you said some stuff back, some of which I disagree with too. Unless you’re both ready to humbly admit that I am correct on all points on which we disagree (I think the pridefulness of both of your hearts will withstand my pleadings, despite the obvious superiority of my reasoning), I think you might do well to face that you disagree on some points which honest people can disagree about. Then, maybe, detoxify a little of the crap that this “Good Mormon” v “Smart Mormon” false fight has spewed around for the past half-century or so and try the wacky idea of loving one another (you’re either enemies, neighbors, or disciples, and Jesus commanded all of those kinds of relationships to do so). But that’s me. |
Dave, all kidding about counting aside, I do appreciate your engaging the substance of my argument. Regarding the continuum between authenticity and community, I’m drawing on literature on organizational dynamics from Harvard Business Review. I’m not talking about correlation, because I’m positing a causal link. When an organization is more authentic, it is because it is less communitarian, and vice versa. Every organization lands at a different place on the continuum between authenticity and community, with accompanying advantages and disadvantages. |
For some reason, a disproportionate number of comments in this thread have been thrown into the mod queue. This is WordPress’s spam shield Akismet, which doesn’t usually generate this many false positives. It does not reflect any attempt to censor or shape this conversation. I’ve approved every comment that’s come through, and I will keep doing so. I apologize for any confusion this causes, and I appreciate your patience. Rosalynde, thanks for coming here to comment. I’m sorry you feel that I’ve mischaracterized your piece. I’ve offered a strong reply, because I take your blog post as something of an affront to the participants and organizers of Mormon Stories. The LDS church does enough to isolate people like that, and I feel strongly that we should do less to isolate them and more to include them, and if you’ll read the Mothers Day talk I posted last week, you’ll see that it’s something that is quite personal to me. I do appreciate your honing in on the phrase “the broken children of the restoration,” because I liked that one quite a lot. |
33 – MCQ — come on — if John and his coterie are making a claim, you don’t need to call him a liar and imply that anyone who believes it is a fool. Do you really think that way about John and those who believe him and his? I rather think the spin is unlikely, that there is a world of difference between getting an article blocked by having someone express concerns about it to someone who is predisposed to can the article and who couples that with the decision to can someone they want to can anyway to the claim that someone got someone fired … but consider the inverse and where that might lead in comments. Annegb, Geoff B’s comments at http://www.millennialstar.org/brilliant-insights-from-rosalynde-welch-on-mormon-stories/comment-page-1/#comment-91471 are worth considering. That is Geoff B suggesting we give John the benefit of the doubt, for good reasons. As for “John’s not answering that question” — John is historically not found of criticism or even being questioned. Consider what happened at Mormon Matters where he fired all the permabloggers, more or less. I was out of pocket for most of that, came back and found out I had been canned as a permablogger. No communication about it before or after. Not even a “thank you for your past posts, but …” I still do not know the whole story there (Mormon Matters), have decided it is not worth the effort to try to find out. There are huge emotional tangles, some times. I am, at present, trying to follow President Uchdorf’s advice to be kinder. Though this entire kerfuffle has helped bring me up to speed on things I had gotten detached from back around 1992, for reasons you and I can understand. As for what really happened, I suspect John got leaked e-mails and such (given he has posted some). From there he contacted someone who expressed concern. A mere expression of concern was probably more than enough for the director, who has had a large and growing rift with the person fired. At that point, the director did what he was wanting to do anyway. The move was not handled with particular grace. Rumor took over, as did hyperbole. Now we are having conversations such as this one. As for FAIR/FARMS. A long time ago, FAIR was conceived of as doing apologetics, FARMS as doing scholarship and as preserving scholarship. In many ways FARMS started as a chaismus and Nibley preservation society. People excited about finding knowledge and perspectives and sharing them. FAIR got started because so very much of the criticism of the Church is based on taking allegations out of context and treating them as true. I’m particularly reminded of someone who decided Christ was really Mythra reworked by Paul. You know, they both had virgin births (well, Mithra sprang full born from a rock, aren’t all rocks virgins?). Mithra had the twelve signs of the Zodiac as companions, Jesus had twelve apostles — don’t you know that the apostles are really just constellations? He has baptism. Of course, I suspect you would balk at being baptized by being drenched in bull’s blood from a freshly killed bull as you stood below it while it was killed. Not exactly the same thing. His worship often included the caveat that only men have souls and Christianity is patriarchal. Ok, the parallels are not very good in the details. Which makes it much, much too easy to get snarky. Especially when dealing with people who are coming up with such things. And repeating them ad nausea. It is easy to see how reviewing anti-mormon literature can cause someone to go over the line from academic review to snark. Too bad, all in all. |
And yes, the Christ is really Mithra person I’m referring to was also using the same approach as an anti-Mormon poster. Imagine DKL dealing with such people … ;) |
Okay, I am not an intellectual at all, and I am beginning to be very thankful for that After reading all I could find on this for the past while, it just hit me how silly it all is. This post and all the arguing comments are very clarifying: it is all a tempest in a teapot. |
It is a very un-Mormon thing to have a new space where people people can discuss their concerns about Mormonism, to say nothing of its redundancy. MS, the MI, and FAIR are all on the same dangerous spectrum of places outside of the three hour block where people consider issues related to the Mormon religion without the constraints of correlation. The modern Mormon impulse is to quash any such spaces. Especially if we perceive one space to be a rival to our preferred space. We should resist such impulses. We need more spaces where people feel free to discuss their authentic concerns and feelings, not fewer. |
Stephen I can’t tell what the crap you’re talking about. |
I just read through the Millenial Star comments and was shocked at the strong views about how John is like Korihor, etc. Those sort of comments are what make folks think we are a cult and, honestly, is embarrassing to think that I am in the same Church as these people… |
Tenerife, wait till you get crapped on arbitrarily or otherwise by those in authority, in ways that have nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ. We’ll be here for you. |
Mcq and Stephen, me, either. I’m laughing out loud, though. I bet you want to say that to me a lot, huh? There’s a commenter over at Times and Seasons I’m going to go say that to right now. |
ARJ, I agree, but I do feel we are becoming more open. Not where we should be, but people are getting away with saying things that would never have stood when I was a young Mormon. |
MCQ “It’s funny to me that the same people who accuse him of being an apostate are also saying he has enough pull with GAs to get someone sacked at BYU. Someone seriously needs to get their story straight.” — that is a claim that John and his coterie have made, so those who repeat it are just giving it credence. Your comment implies that John is not being truthful and that anyone who believes those claims “needs to get their story straight” etc. I questioned that. Sorry you could not tell what I was talking about. Annegb, I’m as perplexed by that poster as you are, if it is the one I’m thinking of. |
Thanks for the follow-up comment (#37), DKL. I’m guessing we’ll all get another shot at this general topic as more information gets shared in coming weeks or months. |
http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=585762 Here’s a link to the conversation I referenced. Note this: “I immediately emailed Daniel Peterson, and cc’d a few people I consider to be friends, to find out if this was true — telling him that if, indeed, the story was true, that I would appreciate knowing about it, and that I would be contacting my GA friends to ask for their involvement.” The poster was under the name Sunbeam, authored by Mormon Stories. It was a bit confusing, but I think John wrote the above words. Now. I never thought John Dehlin was Korihor. I appreciated what he was doing and it lifted me. Then I thought it got a little overboard, for my personal purposes, but I also believe that dissent, questioning is healthy. But, John is heading a movement questioning and dissenting from practices led by our church’s general authorities. When he’s criticized (albeit, in his opinion, unfairly, I say that because I haven’t read the paper), he asks his “GA friends” to intervene. Huh? Are you kidding me? Granted, I’m not college educated, am slightly going on senile, and am not the erudite scholar/genius that tends to travel the blogosphere. I don’t get from nuances. But what the hell? That’s like being mad at your parents for being unfair and then tattling to said parents about a sibling. I’d have felt a lot better about the situation if the paper had come out, in all its John-Dehlin-hating glory, and had John take the punch. If the paper was false, that would have been proven. Daniel Peterson’s reputation as a shit and a putz would have probably assured that many people would have ignored it anyway. And maybe Dan would have been fired anyway. The threat of going to GA friends with a problem tends to confirm my growing suspicion that this at-first worthy effort and movement is devolving into a cult of personality and self importance, who’s more popular, more famous, and has more power. That so goes against my grain in ways you guys have yet to ever hear me describe. Mormon Stories, Joanna Brooks, they encourage dissent AGAINST THE CHURCH. Dissent against themselves, not so much. So, for me, Mormon Stories and its more liberal friends, in all their many forms, have (has?) become another unsafe place where I have no voice. Stephen, I’m talking about Christine. She’s a trip. And let me add one more thing, let’s pretend that I’m a well known tilter of windmills and defender of the less fortunate Mormons who don’t fit the mold and don’t even know if they want to be Mormons and I’m getting press and adulation. If another well known Mormon, who is purported to be a jerk, wrote a smear column on me, I wouldn’t contact my GA friends. I’d call him out at the OK Corral at noon, just him and me. If he libeled me, I’d sue him. More likely, I’d try to kick his *** with words and I would fight my own fight in my own corner. Or laugh and ignore him, depending on the content. I’m kind of weird that way, due to my back alley rearing, I think. John just posted a request on Facebook for loyal committed Mormons to join Mormon Stories because he’s troubled by the perception that he’s attacking the church. Hmmmm…..must ponder. This is it: “I’ve been getting a lot of feedback that MS has gone negative/critical — and I really don’t want this to happen. I’m looking for a few really sharp, believing and committed (to Mormon Stories AND the church) people to partner with me on M.S. podcast planning. This would be a 1-2 year calling….requiring a few hours a week. Message me if you are interested.” I guess I’ll do it. Well, except for that “really sharp” part, I might be qualified. For the calling. |
annegb, I find it interesting that John Dehlin publishes Dan Petersen’s response but not his own initial inquiry. If he is hoping to shed light rather than fan flames it would be helpful to see the tone with which he approached this. Also, if he has video of what Louis Midgley said at UVU that would be worth seeing. I think people on both sides of this incident are obfuscating and practicing plausible deniability. We’ll probably never get to the bottom of it. |
I agree totally about the obfuscation. I guess partly it’s about point of view. I can seem pretty righteous to myself; in that way, everybody does it. But damn, I’m disappointed. |
The entire thing is disappointing. |
Stephen, I’m not seeing where John claims to have gotten Dan fired. I note he admitted to contacting GA friends about the article Prince wrote (which very few people have read apparently) and that GAs apparently intervened on John’s behalf to stop publication of the article by the Maxwell Institute, but I don’t see that John asked for or was assured that Dan would be fired as part of this. It seems to me that others are now claiming that it was John’s actions that got Dan fired. That may or may not be true, but it seems unlikely to me. I don’t know who John’s friends are, but I doubt that he has enough pull to get someone fired at BYU who wasn’t going to be fired already. Additionally, I don’t see any evidence showing that John ever asked for Dan to be fired. Whether you agree or not with John’s actions here, or like him or what he does, it seems to me that what he did was not out of the realm of what any reasnoble person might do when confronted with the information that an article was about to be published that was critical of him personally (as opposed to his website or his work). I don’t necessarily agree with his running to his friends in high places to protect him, but my guess is that such tactics would not have worked at all if at least some GAs were not already in agreement that changes were needed at the Maxwell Institute. |
The problem here is that people are approaching the question as though it’s a disagreement between moral equals who have comparable claims. The truth is that there is a history here and a good guy who deserves the benefit of the doubt and a bad guy who does not deserve patience or indulgance. Specifically, Dan Peterson is the bad guy, and any room you give him to maneuver he’ll use to dissemble and manipulate. The bad part is that the prestige that the church has given him fascilitates his deception. John Dehlin is the good guy here, but because Mormons perceive him as something of an outsider, they suppose he’s likely up to no good. Such are the twisted moral lenses through which Mormons view the world. It’s revolting to see it played out on this very blog. |
I’m deleting what I said here because I’m too damn mad to be opening my mouth right now. |
MCQ — I agree that it is unlikely that John has the ability to get people fired at BYU. But I was just discussing which group was making the claim. That was John’s people who were reveling in it — thus they were the people “Someone seriously needs to get their story straight” and I though it was excessive to say that about them. I would agree it is unlikely, but … DKL, I’m not sure it is fair to call Dan Peterson a bad guy. On the other hand, I agree with Geoff that it is not wise to assume that John is a bad guy, viz., http://www.millennialstar.org/brilliant-insights-from-rosalynde-welch-on-mormon-stories/#comment-91471 Annegb “I’m talking about Christine. She’s a trip.” I know. Honestly, Dan seems about on par with DKL at times for snarkiness if the rumors are true. I’m so out of touch with them all, the 1990s were bad for me and keeping up with everyone. I don’t feel inclined to call either (Dan or John or DKL) evil or deceptive. Even Nick Literski likes Dan, though he feels that apologetics has put such a burden on his soul that it twists him and that Dan needs to be free of the environment to get his head back on straight. The biggest difference is that Dan never fired me from a group blog without talking to me, explaining what (or even that) he was doing, and without an apology, at a time I was out of pocket. There is a reason I am at Times and Seasons and no longer at Mormon Matters. MM just kicked me out one day without warning. Got back home and discovered I was no longer a permablogger there. Do I think John is evil? That is silly. I would not quote Geoff if I thought Dan was evil. I think he is often stressed, busy and overwhelmed some times. That is far from evil. Heck, he isn’t even a fan of blood sports like MMAs, as far as I know. As for who deserves indulgence, I’m starting to reread Uchtdorf’s “just don’t” // “just stop it” talk. It came up on the CD player this week and I’m giving it a lot of thought, vis a vis myself. As for indulgance: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=indulgance — I’d rather not encourage anyone that way. ;) So, I don’t see it as a disagreement between moral equals. The disagreement is between the Maxwell Institute and Jack Welch, who had been sidelined and exiled, and the remaining proxies. John Delin appears to be a bystander and a person of interest, but not someone who is having a disagreement. Honestly, the way the publication continued to slowly fall behind … it may well be time for a new editor, publication schedule and approach in order to get caught up. And time for a bit more kindness towards the people involved, including Ms. Welch. And even more kindness towards DKL. |
Times and Seasons — commenting, of course (I blog at Wheat and Tares ;) ) |
BTW, an interesting essay on communities: sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2012/07/superman-batman-and-worldviews.html |
Stephen, I’m sorry that your blogging experience didn’t work out between you and John. I don’t see any connection between the fact that John Dehlin cleared the decks to reboot Mormon Matters (however unceremoniously) and the fact that Dan’s ran a pro-church smear machine. |
DKL – While I agree with your overall message regarding the value of forums like MS, I feel your writing has some of the same contempt for apologists that you accuse them of having for members struggling to believe. |
annegb, the truth is that nobody knows whether John Dehlin got Dan Peterson fired. John Dehlin doesn’t even know. All that is known is that the church’s professional smear machine prepared a lengthy piece attacking John, John complained about it being published to people that he knew. The piece got yanked. Personally, I’d be very, very surprised if a single article lead to Dan Peterson getting fired. I think that it’s a fair guess that Dan Peterson’s firing was in the works for a long time, so that the article on John Dehlin wasn’t the direct reason. Dan’s a very manipulative person, and if it suits his agenda to make this into a personal battle, he’ll do that. I wouldn’t be surprised if Dan knew some time ago that his days were numbered and made himself impossible to get ahold of so that he could complain that he was fired by email. But nobody knows for sure, except the man who fired Dan Peterson, and it wouldn’t be appropriate for him to comment on it publicly. For my part, I don’t have much respect for people who complain publicly about getting fired. Company’s have to be quite strict about the comments that they make about someone whom they let go, or they can be held liable for damages to that person’s reputation. The employee who speaks out against her employer know this, and she is exploiting the system by defaming those involved while knowing that they cannot respond to her publicly. Let me be perfectly clear: I’m principally concerned with countering the effort to smear and denigrate Mormon Stories. This stuff about Dan Peterson may be interesting to many of the people here, but it’s a sideshow vis a vis the original post. |
Stephen, I saw that conflict going on and played out from another vantage point, and I saw something completely different. I saw a bunch of people being antagonistic and disloyal, refusing to stand together because of a misplaced emphasis on a relatively meaningless principle. I wouldn’t expect anyone involved to actually understand that, because Mormons are always so fixated on justifying their righteous indignation at the expense of their friendships. Mormonism teaches people to behave that way, which is part of what I refer to when I describe Mormons as morally handicapped. Mormons understand loyalty exactly as much as a man with no sense of smell understands perfume. For my part, in the cosmic battle between good and evil, I stand with my wife and my children. And Steve Evans and the Banner of Heaven crew. And annegb and the bloggers here at Mormon Mentality. And John Dehlin. If God doesn’t like my choice of friends, then He choses not to be my friend. Too bad for Him. |
David, I warned you about smoking that pot my cousin got in Puerto Rico. God likes and loves all of us and He approves of every single damn one of us. The idea that God only likes certain of His children, depemding, is the biggest lie on earth. We all presume to speak for Him at times and I think He just sits there with a smile waiting for the yelling to stop. (“I seem to hear God saying, “Put down the gun and let’s talk.”-CS Lewis) The best thing Satan can do is get us hating each other—he doesn’t give a shit what we hate each other over. And if, in the long run, discussion of what John is trying to do increases the polarity, then what John’s trying to do is rendered moot and pointless. Everybody needs a voice and to be able to express that without fear. Or we might as well just go back to sacrament and sit silent and sad. I repeat, God isn’t asking you to choose. He loves you, just as you are. And He loves everybody else, too. |
I don’t know about all that, annegb. Is it God or Satan who wants us to love Hitler? And I don’t even think “love thy neighbor” is a useful moral dictum. In fact, I think that “love thy neighbor as thyself” leads to patently immoral conclusions, whether we take it as advice from Jesus or the Old Testament. So I’m supposed to love my neighbor as much as myself, only not as much as I love my kids. Because I’m actually obliged to kill or maim this neighbor that I love so much if its necessary to protect my children. I guess sometimes love’s a real bitch. I mean, surely we should show charity and kindliness toward people unless we have a moral obligation to do otherwise, but I just don’t think that it’s useful or desirable to pretend that we’re supposed to love everybody. |
“The need for Mormon Stories arises from the tendency Mormons have to value each other based on how well they echo or amplify the opinions of LDS leaders. Mormons who cease to echo or amplify these opinions often discover that there is little or no bond of personal loyalty or compassion underlying their relationships with loved ones. As a consequence, the Mormon who suffers a crisis of faith frequently faces rejection and ultimatums from family members, including her spouse. She sometimes even finds herself accused of disobedience or immorality. In a sense, the Mormons are a morally handicapped people; their tendency to value members based on their alignment with LDS leadership limits Mormons’ potential for virtue by rendering them less capable of loyalty and compassion.” I would posit that suggesting that all Mormons have a “tendency” to be ostracizing douche-bags is at least as uncharitable and unfair as suggesting that MoSto is for “silly” people, and, based on my experience, certainly less defensible. (I have no doubt that plenty of those participating at MoSto have had that experience, but I reject the idea entirety of the church membership can be described in such broad pejorative strokes.) Thus the irony of the post: it condemns Welch for being condescending and stereotypical, but does so by being condescending and stereotypical itself. |
annegb, I’m just being a jerk. I agree with you that we’re supposed to love everybody. (but sometimes it sure is fun to make a bit of hay over it.) I apologize. |
jimbob, you’re statement “I reject the idea entirety of the church membership can be described in such broad pejorative strokes” isn’t as self-evidently true as you think it is. You could say that about pretty much anything that there are more than 12 of. For example: “I reject the idea entirely that all refrigerators can be described in such broad pejorative strokes.” or “I reject the idea entirely that all paper dolls can be described in such broad pejorative strokes.” This is just a lazy statement that sounds plausible, but has no use whatever in serious conversation. Size never determines the validity of generalizations, and valid generalizations can be made across populations of any size whatever. In fact, your statement that Mormons cannot be described in broad pejorative strokes is, itself, a generalization. |
For my part, in the cosmic battle between good and evil, I stand with my wife and my children. And Steve Evans and the Banner of Heaven crew. And annegb and the bloggers here at Mormon Mentality. And John Dehlin. If God doesn’t like my choice of friends, then He choses not to be my friend. Too bad for Him. You sound like early members of the Church. As for your perspective from the outside, I’ll remember next time I’m on vacation to watch myself for being so fixated on justifying their righteous indignation at the expense of their friendships. Ah well, everyone has their own point of view. I apologize. Well, she did warn you about smoking that pot. ;) |
I don’t think I said anything about anybody having to love their neighbor. I said God loves and likes us all. He’s not going to make anybody choose. He personally loves and gets you. Let that in and it changes the dynamic of this disagreement over an incident/chain of events that isn’t the first and won’t be the last in any of our lives. This, too, shall pass. So you, David, can take a deep breath, put down your gun and allow that it’s not necessary to condemn the whole damn Mormon Church to defend John. |
Stephen, early members of the church saw themselves as part of the battle against evil in the universe. My entire point is that I don’t participate in that. |
DKL, you are always crusading against evil, or at least stupidity as you perceive it, but that was not my point. I was referencing the statements people made about how they were willing to be God’s free man or his friend, but not God’s slave or unquestioning follower; or that if God would not take them and their departed family, then they would rather go to hell with those they stand with. Your “If God doesn’t like my choice of friends …” is an implicit statement that if God doesn’t like your choices, you reject him and “Too bad for Him.” Very much fits in those types of statements, which are borne out of loyalty and honor, and rather black and white thinking. I know a lot about honor and loyalty, and they should run both ways rather than be one sided in any relationship. It seems you are asking that of God, and offering it in return if God honors it in you. Very much an early LDS theme, and one I think important to understanding the gospel. That said, often I think you do seem to reflect rather stark positions in the way you express yourself, though you might not embrace starkness. In that regard, early members of the church saw themselves as part of the battle for good in the universe, which is a little different than the battle against evil. Evil only triumphs if we do not seek the good. I would hope that what you do participate in is seeking the good. If you feel you have found it in some of what John does, good for you. There is truth everywhere to be found, and we need to do that rather than just reject everything out of hand. If that goes for the Methodists and Anglicans (according to both Brigham Young and Joseph Smith), I can’t see why it does not apply to John Delin or Dan Peterson as well. Or you or Ms. Welch. Seems you have a good deal of truth in you worth listening to. There is a lot of wheat amidst the tares. |
Well, it is July 6th. I’m going to go off and reflect on things that make me happy for this day. |
#15: I don’t think Rosalynde was spot on (because I’m insulted by the idea that I’m too stupid to figure out intellectually the doctrines of the church), but I sure as hell think you were spot on. THAT’s a tragedy, because I think the original goal was to support those going through anguish over various aspects of their membership. I think—-I hope—-John’s taking measures to correct that. I, too, have had trouble listening to the podcasts due to time constraints and personality problems (ADD, hard to listen, it’s a curse) #17: No #22: “There are those stupid enough to believe that they should be able to read it and decide for themselves, and that’s a fashionable thing to say that has a certain ring of fair-mindedness. The truth is that these sorts of character assassinations need to be taken off of the table.” I’m one of those stupid ones. I find the implication that I couldn’t figure it out on my own insulting. I know I’m old and senile, but I’m not that old and senile. “A key purpose of the FARMS Review was to silence . . .” It seems like you’d like to silence those who don’t completely agree with you on this subject. Pot calling the kettle black?? If you didn’t want dissent, you should have simply blocked comments. Anyway, isn’t that what the church does a lot? “You’re too stupid to object to this, just accept it on blind faith and go along.” #25: Jenn, I agree with you. #26 Book: felt the same way. Why don’t you join his new group and be part of the solution? #28 Trevor: Well, nobody called a shitbag (yet!), or a really bad word that another blogger called John. I think bloggers are a lot alike, regardless of our individual bents. We’re onery guts. Thanks for the compliment; I wish I were unassuming. God probably does, too. #29: Queuno, I thought that about the 150 members resigning. They probably just wanted to be on TV. #30 Bob Warner: good comment. Don’t totally agree, but if you use a lot of big words, I’ll think you’re making sense. #33 Mcq: yeah, you’re probably right. This is another instance of me believing the first think I hear. #36, Blain: “If I had a nickel for every time I saw someone talking past someone else, each thinking the other was on the “other” side of the question, when all that was going on was poor communication, I’d be rich. And a nickel richer over this conversation.” Nickel, hell, I could get that liposuction I’ve been wanting. The rest of your comments made me smile and chuckle. Good points. #39, 40, 48, etc: Stephen: You are the quintessential good guy. Because a lot of people would have called John a shitbag over that. I’d be ticked. I so wish I could do what you have done with your life’s tragedies: make myself into a better person. Good on you for refusing to go Lord of the Flies here. Thanks. #49: Dave, surprisingly civil comment, given the tone of your and David’s interchange. #54: Mcq, see this is beyond my comprehension. I would never do anything like that. I go to the person, chew them out and let the chips fall. I think it’s because I’m more comfortable being the underdog. (an aside: I think part of DKL’s convictions here stem from his desire to defend underdogs. I’m the same way. I don’t see John as an underdog, I see him as pretty up to the fight, all on his own. He didn’t need a general authority in the alley with him.) #61 Ed, I agree. DKL, all your numbers: way to blast back onto the scene :). I don’t think I was clear enough up front about how bothered I was by what I perceived to have happened. To me, it seemed like the popular kid at school (aka John, who is no way an outsider) got picked on by a REALLY unpopular kid and instead of realizing he had all the power, called on his buddy, the principal, to back him up. That might not sound intellectually sound to you, but we are all at heart, the product of our upbringing. And THAT one action really really bothered me. To the point that I cannot with my whole heart defend John. John might be the good guy here, but he’s not a saint and his effort could stand improving. Otherwise, it’s going to turn into Anti-Mormon Stories and those of us who needed his movement in the beginning are once again, going to be left in the cold. I seriously thought you understood where I was coming from and because we’ve always welcomed dissent here (not always graciously, but still), thought it would be all good. Guess not. David, people who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid. They just disagree. Rosalynde might be an intellectual snob and biased because of her relatives, but she’s not the anti-Christ, either. You eloquently disagreed with her and made your point, which a lot of posters agreed with. “The need for Mormon Stories arises from the tendency Mormons have to value each other based on how well they echo or amplify the opinions of LDS leaders. Mormons who cease to echo or amplify these opinions often discover that there is little or no bond of personal loyalty or compassion underlying their relationships with loved ones. As a consequence, the Mormon who suffers a crisis of faith frequently faces rejection and ultimatums from family members, including her spouse. She sometimes even finds herself accused of disobedience or immorality. In a sense, the Mormons are a morally handicapped people; their tendency to value members based on their alignment with LDS leadership limits Mormons’ potential for virtue by rendering them less capable of loyalty and compassion.” I said this was wonderful and I meant it. But your blanket condemnation of those who do not revere John Dehlin belies your own hypocrisy. Forget loving your neighbor. Believe that God loves you enough that He cares more about what the conflict does to you than the conflict itself and for crying out loud, He’s not out there on a battlefield ready to blow you, your friends (of which I will always be proud to call myself one) and your family away. He’s standing by you with His arm around you saying: “I know how ya feel. I deal with idiots all the time in my line of work.” I’m not asking you to agree with John’s critics, nor am I calling you stupid because you do not. Please do me the same courtesy. |
Stephen, actually I’m thinking more along the lines of John Stuart Mill: “I will call no being good who is not what I mean when I apply that epithet to my fellow creatures; and if such a creature can sentence me to hell for not so calling him, to hell I will go.” John Stuart Mill wasn’t really known as a black-and-white thinker. But black and white thinking is always the appropriate response to black-and-white situations, unless you pursue moral ambiguity for its own sake. At any rate, there’s not even a hint of this among early Mormons. I’m not sure why this is an important point to you. annegb, outside of the bloggernacle, FARMS is considered to be the intellectual arm of the church. Dan Peterson may not be liked here in the bloggernacle, but he’s an insider. There’s nobody that posts regularly on the bloggernacle who is an insider church-wise, because the church keeps a very tight lid on that sort of thing. I haven’t condemned anyone who does not revere John. You and I agree that such a move would be inappropriate, if not just plain silly. I brought up loyalty in reference to what happened at Mormon Matters, but lets not conflate that incident with this one. I’m not accusing anyone here of disloyalty for failing to revere John. Most of the people here (on the bloggernacle) have no obligation to John whatever. Mormons do tend to lack a strong sense of loyalty and are generally poor at friendships; the reason I mention (valuing people for their ability to echo the opinions in vogue among current leaders) is just one factor. It’s worth noting that a primary doctrinal defect of the Book of Mormon lies in its unduly smug and comfortable description of human affairs; for example, Alma’s epistle to his son Corianton is boorish, condescending, and self-righteous. Furthermore, The Book of Mormon contains no genuine account of friendship, and the one example that approaches it (the reunion of the Sons of Mosiah) describes an event rather than a relationship. (cf. David and Jonathan in the Old Testament, or Ajax and Achilles in The Illiad.) Major figures like Alma and Helaman display no apparent awareness of the more profound aspects of human moral life (cf., Hectors exchange with Andromache and their son at the end of Book 6 of The Illiad), opting instead to preach obedience to a moral code defined by the need to shoehorn history into a pride cycle that equates prosperity with righteousness. Mormons’ tendency to read The Book of Mormon uncritically inhibits their ability to glean moral lessons from it. |
That’s reasonable. I would clarify the statement about Mormons and friendship, though, to either, in my experience. . . or some Mormons. In my experience, some Mormons have really crapped on me when I didn’t conform to the norm. Others have demonstrated stupendous loyalty. Could it be that way in other religions as well? I don’t know the right words to put this, but I’ll try. Using Catholicism as an example, there are many many groups that dissent on various issues. There are devout Catholics and “Jack” Catholics and the definitions seems to be relative. Even in the Vatican, there seems to be off-shoots. I think the longer a given religion is in existence and the more uh, devoutness a religion demands, the more this will be the case. I’ve been an outsider all my life; I’m coming to accept that I play a part in that. The status of insider requires too much responsibility and work. I value my independence. I wasn’t thinking of your post in the context of CHURCH insiders/outsiders, but in the context of blog insiders/outsiders. Using the term “blog” loosely to include groups like FARMS (which I clearly have no knowledge of) and other blogs, online magazines that are not included on LDS Blogs. Because I was excluded, I oppose exclusionary tactics and attitudes. Many members of our church are people who have succeeded in life and are highly task oriented perfectionists. This leads them to exclude people without shame. By doing that, they have created a whole bunch of outsiders. Referring to Alma and the Book of Mormon, I once made the comment in Relief Society that Nephi wasn’t perfect and he probably had a part in the bad relationship with his less devout brothers. I said the “oh wretched man” verses probably reflected his problem with self righteous and judgementalism. You wouldn’t believe how many people wet their pants over that. I was thinking about the insults I personally described against Dan Peterson and I was wondering if it hurts his feelings that so many bloggers think he’s a creep. Or if he’s such a big cheese that he doesn’t care what we think. |
I’m really intrigued by your last paragraph DKL.
I think this is fair and I think I know the reason: Loyalty to institutions (church, country, etc.) is placed at such a high level. This is not necessarily a bad thing per se, but in situations where personal loyalty is valuable or even expected, Mormons often fall short because personal loyalty os not a virtue we talk about or cultivate in the Church. That’s too bad, because there are many situations in life where personal loyalty is a great virtue. I think the shortcomings in the BoM that you describe are generally accurate too, and may be responsible for some of the lack of value placed on personal friendship and loyalty in the Church. But again, there are some reasons for that, in that it’s not the purpose of the BoM to describe all aspects human affairs or even a full history of the people it is focused on. Its purpose is pretty simple and straightforward: testify of Christ, and provide a witness that can be tested through personal revelation. It’s not intended to be anything else, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t value other things, just because they are not found within its pages. |
MCQ: I think this is fair and I think I know the reason: Loyalty to institutions (church, country, etc.) is placed at such a high level. The reason I’ve offered is that members only value each other insofar as they echo or amplify the views of leaders. There’s a very strong sense in which that’s what it means to be loyal to an institution. I agree that the Book of Mormon cannot encompass every aspect of morality. I think that many Mormons are under the impression that it does. I’ve personally heard several Mormons say out loud that the Book of Mormon tells you everything that you need to know. Of course, the Book of Mormon also says nothing about how to increase crop yields, without this the world’s 20th and 21st century civilizations would have been impossible. I don’t mean to sound snotty about this (well, OK… maybe I do), but I haven’s found a comparable critique of the Book of Mormon anywhere, from Mormons, non-Mormons, or anti-Mormons. I’m reluctant to think that I’m the only one who’s come up with this critique, but I certainly haven’t seen it anywhere — I’ve certainly read people who say that they find Alma’s epistle to Corianton to be pretty awful as fatherly communication to a son, but in my critique that’s an example of a defect, rather than a defect in itself. |
See, this is the problem. What you said was perfectly reasonable, and yet people can’t tolerate any discussion like that at church, which is completely silly. I once said something similar in GD class about the Lord being unduly harsh in dealing with Uzzah, and that even David agreed with that and refused to move the ark further for a while. Of course that got me criticized by people who said that Uzzah was told the rules and he violated them, so he deserved what he got, which is of course a load of crap and completely hypocritical. But criticism, however minor, of the Lord or his prophets is not allowed. DKL, the biggest quarrels I have with Alma’s words to Corianton is that he screwed up the doctrine of the resurrection, and he went on way too long. Other than that, I think he did alright, other than I think he should have expressed a lot more love for his son. |
You’re certain we have everything Alma said to his son on the subject? Or is it, perhaps, just the little that Mormon chose to include? |
Jack, there’s no way to know for sure, but Alma’s words to all his sons, Helaman, Shiblon and Corianton are included and his thoughts appear to to be complete as far as we can tell. There are no obvious signs that he was edited. Given that, there’s no reason to automatically assume there was more. |
IKve been studying the Book of Mormon and making a timeline. I conclude that it’s necessary to fill in a lot of blanks. For instance, Amaleki (the first mentioned) had to have been an infant when Mosiah (the first one) left. I can’t recall the specifics off hand, but I realized that a lot os left to us to figure out. The Book of Mormon is short on action and long on speeches, etc. If we have to assume the Bible to be correct sofar as it was translated correctly, we must assume the same about the Bible. And I discovered, too, that the Book of Mormon is about a very small group of people over hundreds of years. I’m only in the beginning of Mosiah, but when I read stuff I take exception to, I just give it to God. And sometimes I write “what? No way!” In the margins. The Bible, oh I love the Bible in all its dysfunctional glory. And so much of it is crap. Mcq, thank you, that’s validating. You guys want to see what it’s like to be an outsider? Come with me to Sunday School. Bill about died from embarrassment the day I interrupted the teacher’s diatribe against Lot’s wife. I have always felt sorry for her. |
It’s odd that discourse on cultivating personal loyalty is absent from our rhetoric, given how absolutely important it was to Joseph Smith. Did he not preach on it? Or do those portions of his sermons simply get ignored? |
Thankfully, it seems we’re moving into a new era in which the kool kids defending the church are gonna have to do more to earn their high fives than simply dismissing doubters as too stupid to matter. Anyway, interesting thread. This bit from the link cracked me up: “…incoherence can also eat itself from the inside out.” Other times, it stumbles punch drunk around the Internet, calling people names, looking to pick a fight. Not your finest moment, Ms. Welch. Just out of curiosity, what void was this post intended to fill? Because as far as I can tell, it’s just a rehash of one of the favorite themes of the online Mormon commentariat. Do you really suppose that people struggling with their Mormon faith haven’t already encountered the jeering of preening post-modern Mormons like yourself who seem to delight in implying that any Mormon unwilling to believe in needlessly complicated ideas must be suffering from an incapacity for complex thought? |
Interesting. I find personal loyalty extremely important, though I feel it should run both ways. Leaders owe a duty of loyalty to those they would lead, and the rift that they create if they fail to honor that duty is extreme. It is the worst of betrayals, as it was with David and Uriah the Hittite. I’ve a number of friends I’m loyal to, and still friends with, regardless of activity or inactivity in the Church. I’m listening to the discussion on friendship, but not really understanding it. The entire description of a culture where “valuing people for their ability to echo the opinions in vogue” seems so much like the part of high school I skipped. Maybe I just live in the wrong places. I continue to wrestle with how to make the circle of what we include such that we do not exclude or create outsiders, or block them from access or a voice. It is a difficult dynamic to create or sustain. Anyway, this was an interesting discussion. Thank you to everyone. |
“Other times, it stumbles punch drunk around the Internet, calling people names, looking to pick a fight.” Sounds like myself, in a bad mood….. |
Chino Blanco, great comment. Stephen, I don’t know you well enough to know for sure, but I’ve met you and I know some of your personal story. I think that you may well understand loyalty, and I hope you do. I hope I do, too, though I make mistakes and I kick myself and tell myself that I’ve learned something new this time and I will do better in the future, and I think I do alright at following through most of the time. I say to people that when the chips are down, I’m the one you want in your corner, and I hope that they feel that way. Many people to not get loyalty at all, and Mormons are among the least likely to get it. Plenty of people have some really boffo story of how they stuck by someone, but if you get loyalty, you know that’s not the point either. The fact that Mormonism teaches its members to value others based on how well they echo LDS leadership creates a culture wherein Mormons freeze out members with differing and difficult opinions and viewpoints. Mormons internalize this without ever knowing it. It’s what faithful parents hang over their inactive children in spite of their best efforts to be accepting. It’s what causes Mormons to boast about how broad-minded they are by saying that they can “accepting” that their child way is inactive, or gay, or doing things that Mormons find immoral. The fact that an acceptance is being made presupposes an exertion required to bridge a chasm of sorts. That chasm is what I’m pointing to. That chasm is what oozes from Rosalynde’s post. Bridging it is a first step, but it is not enough. Eventually, the chasm needs to be altogether obliterated, and Mormons are singularly bad at taking this step. Doing away with that chasm is impossible for someone who does not value others apart how well they match her adopted standards. Unfortunately, the Mormon moral handicap blinds Mormons to the existence of this chasm until they feel it exerted against them. Until she feels it, the average Mormon will just reassure everyone who has felt that chasm that she totally gets it, because the Mormon who follows her leaders reflexively thinks that Mormons who do not follow their leaders don’t know everything that she knows. |
I just read Rosalynde’s piece again and she does use the word investigation. I can’t believe I didn’t see that. Although I don’t think she did much of an investigation. Sorry, my bad. |
DKL — that is a really interesting point. I will have to think on it. |
“The fact that Mormonism teaches its members to value others based on how well they echo LDS leadership creates a culture wherein Mormons freeze out members with differing and difficult opinions and viewpoints. Mormons internalize this without ever knowing it.” Bears repeating. Kind of goes along with “Catholics are taught that the pope is infallible, but they don’t really believe it; Mormons are taught that the prophet is fallible, but they don’t really believe it.” |