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The only mediums I know remind me of the imaginary-but-probably-real guy who scammed off an entire ward. I know some people earnestly believe in that gift, and some have it, but those who abuse it far outweigh any benefit given to me. Especially since it still brings back to what I shared on another post–why would God speak to someone else when he could speak to me? |
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Read Moroni 10:
I don’t see any reason why someone couldn’t have the gift of speaking to the dead. That may be precisely what is meant by “ministering spirits” in verse 14. |
Moroni 10:14 needs to be combined with the Old Testament admonition to stay away from wizards, necromancers, and familiar spirits. Here’s what I think: If the Lord wants you to have the gift of communicating with your dead brother, then the spirit of your brother will interact directly with you, not with a professional medium. The principle of order and authority holds. God only gives revelations/communications for you, either directly to you, or someone who has legitimate authority over you (bishop, stake president, or higher, etc.) Sometimes, God inspires people around you to help you. Like a home-teacher or visiting-teacher who shows up or calls at just the right moment. Or a secret Santa who leaves a bag of groceries on your doorstep when no one else knows that you needed groceries. But someone who says “Your dead brother wants you to know that… bla-bla-bla..” is to be taken with suspicion. Here’s the problem with most commercial or professional mediums: like NH says, the vast majority are con artists. If there are any so-called sincere mediums, they are just as susceptible to being approached by the unclean spirits (Satan’s angels) than by a deceased person who had actually lived on earth. Satan’s angels know a lot of things about us. They have been observing us all our lives, and observing all people back to Adam and Eve. Satan’s angels can feed correct information AND false information to a medium. Satan’s angels know the plan of salvation. So they can throw in a bunch of true tidbits along with some real big lies. I’ve met a semi-famous medium or psychic, also called an “intuitive counselor”. She spoke at a meeting of a club I belong to. The impression I got was that she really did communicate with beings from the other side. However, I think the people/spirits she listened to were not the “good guys.” The impression I got was “she’s playing for the wrong team.” That was my gut level perception. I don’t know if that was my own imagination, my own analysis, or if it was inspiration. So I can’t testify that that is true, merely that that’s what I believe. I think she really did have some kind of gift of discernment in which she could read people’s spirits, that is look at a living person, and “see” (perceive) things about their past and the condition of their spirit. However, in my opinion, this gift of hers didn’t come from God. It was a gift, but from a “bad” source. Or, she may have just been really good at sizing up a person, and telling them what they wanted to hear, as a manipulation, to make them feel good. Really good con-artists and salesmen can be like that. They pick up on all sorts of “tells” or “markers” in your behavior and speech and give a “read”, kind of like a really good psychologist or profiler. (There’s a couple of TV shows on professional profilers, right?) So even if most of what she said was true, you could never tell what the “poison pill” was going to be, i.e., which part of what she said was wrong, the “lie” part that Satan wanted so bad to get across that he’d tell a bunch of truths to do so. There is an example of this in the Bible. A woman, in the presence of Peter and the others, shouted out that they were servants of God, and people should listen to them, which was true. But Peter rebuked her and cast out the evil spirit from her. Her bosses (owners?) were mad because she no longer had the gift of prophecy. Well, if what she said was true, why did Peter cast out the spirit that was influencing her? That’s because even evil spirits (Satan’s angels) can say true things, or give spiritual “gifts” to people. So yes, Satan can mimic or counterfeit spiritual gifts. Satan knows all the languages of the earth, so Satan could give someone the gift of tongues. I’ve read where Satan can temporarily heal someone, but it’s a fake healing, and only lasts a few minutes. From my experience in Evangelical Christianity as a teen, I know that Christians in other churches do sometimes receive legitimate gifts from God. God is not a respecter of persons. And apparently, God does not require being a member of the true church as a pre-requisite for any and all gifts. We all know non-LDS who praise God for answering their prayers, right? But not all spiritual gifts are from God. There are several tell-tales: 1. if the person charges or asks for a donation, they are not legit. 2. if the person doesn’t do things in the name of Christ, they are likely not legit. 3. If the person doesn’t ascribe their gifts to God the father of Jesus, or to Jesus, they are likely not legit. 4. If they are not a practicing Christian of any flavor, they are probably not legit. One of the cool things about King David (before his fall) was that he could talk directly to God for answers about how to manage things, without having to run to the prophet Samuel or Nathan to get answers. David asked God directly, and God answered, even though David was not “the” prophet. David was “a” prophet, just like any believer can be. You, like everyone else, are entitled to revelation and gifts to manage your own life and the people and things that are under your legitimate scope of authority. You might even be inspired to buy a gallon of turpentine for someone, like this home-teacher: So I say seek out and develop your OWN gifts, and don’t rely on sooth-sayers or mediums or people who keep familiar spirits. |
Bookslinger, I’m not even sure where to begin… I’ll start with your list of points at the bottom of your comment. “But not all spiritual gifts are from God. There are several tell-tales: 1. if the person charges or asks for a donation, they are not legit. 2. if the person doesn’t do things in the name of Christ, they are likely not legit. 3. If the person doesn’t ascribe their gifts to God the father of Jesus, or to Jesus, they are likely not legit. 4. If they are not a practicing Christian of any flavor, they are probably not legit. I’m just saying that like anything one consumes do it with awareness of what you are consuming and judge it critically. If it is good for your personal well-being and progression then it is good. |
I would personally never pay money to someone who claimed to have a spiritual gift because I agree that almost invariably, people who charge money for such things are frauds. There is also, as Bookslinger says, the possibility of counterfeit gifts from the evil side, but I see no reason to be afraid of such things. I think you can always tell such things by the use of the Spirit. But I think there are good people with legitimate spiritual gifts who are not Mormons or even Christians. Read Moroni again. I don’t think he’s saying that spiritual gifts come only to Christians or members of the Church. I think every person has at least one spiritual gift. |
mcq: re: non-christians with spiritual gifts. I have met some very godly/pious non-christians. So I may have to re-think that part. God does indeed bless us when we live up to whatever light has been given us. And I agree that the gift of discernment, that is the ability to judge whether someone else is operating by the Spirit, is also _available_ to those who believe the gospel, and especially to those who have the Gift of the Holy Ghost. However, I don’t know if that translates into the _right_ to receive the gift of discernment (ie, “on demand” so to speak), as a parallel to the gift of the Holy Ghost. For instance, a bishop has a _right_ to the gift of discernment, whereas, for the rest of the ward, I think it may be an optional gift, unless it directly pertains to their calling. Does the gift of discernment automatically and always correspond to the gift of the Holy Ghost? I don’t know. Even then Elder Hinckley, and other church leaders I suppose, was taken in by fraudster Mark Hofmann. So I would say that spiritual gifts are not always active. If even the apostles can be taken in by fraudsters, the rest of us should be on our toes. |
igrok: the problem as I see it, is that when we go outside the gospel framework, or paradigm, we’re on our own. People who seek after mediums for information or answers are usually in a fragile or distressed mental/emtional state to start with. When we are in that kind of state, it gets even more difficult to separate out the emotional from the spiritual, since those two things are so closely intertwined anyway. Satan and lesser mortal fraudsters know exactly how to play upon our emotions and confuse us. They know exactly what buttons to push or strings to pull to get us to believe that something emotional is spiritual. They have ways of finding out true things about us and our past to throw in to make it look like they could have only known that through psychic or spiritual means, which then manipulates us into a position to accept their big-lie or poison-pill. Those frauds might have hidden microphones, or plants in the audience who pass along information to the medium. In the case of “evil side” influences, the true information could have come from the evil spirits (that 1/3rd that was cast out of heaven) having observed us our entire lives. Or, in the case of a skilled profiler, our tone of voice, or a small behavior, or a certain word choice gives them clues which they can then pursue in those interview-type questions which I’ve seen the TV mediums do. If a person seeking spiritual answers doesn’t get answers from their own prayers, they have a bishop and a stake presidency to help them. Bishops and stake presidents _do_ have a right to receive revelation on behalf of their congregants in terms of callings, and in special circumstances. But I think most bishops and SPs would advise the person to seek their own revelation. Perhaps even a stake patriarch can be approached, since they have a calling of seer and revelator too. I don’t know the church’s position on the latter, so I’m just guessing on that. The stake patriarchs I know do seem to have a keen sense of spiritual perception. |
I’ve been to many psychics since James died and I’ve had some pretty remarkable experiences. I’m a believer, but I also know there are charlatans. I think whatever gets one through the night. One really freaky thing regarding psychics happened when my sister died. My other sister was at a fund-raiser fair type of event the day of Dessie’s death and this man, unknown to my sister, came up to her and told her that her sister was happy in the spirit world. She blew him off (he is a psychic, turns out) but of course we lost Dessie. At that time we didn’t even know she was sick. And no money changed hands. Which general authority said something about everything being in the present? I believe we all have gifts of the spirit and availability of the spirit, some more than others. Some are shocked at my psychic obsession (I don’t go to them anymore) but it was one way of coping. I’m learning to read palms. VERY interesting. |
I am confused. The Lord gives spiritual gifts. What would be the purpose to speaking to those who have passed on and why would you need a medium to communicate with them? |
Well, has anybody you loved died? It’s a pretty universal need to see and speak with them, especially at first. I need a medium because speaking to the dead isn’t one of my spiritual gifts. Like I said, it got me through a few days. And God was on my shit list because James had died and didn’t mind me when I demanded that He send my son back, this instant! Mormons are unique among Christian religions in our matter-of-fact acceptance of the spirit world and countless anecdotes about interactions with those who have passed. It’s not occult; they are with us. Some are more aware than others. I’ve paid some psychics and haven’t paid others. There are times in our lives when God seems very uncaring and distant. I didn’t sell my soul to the devil or commit any sins. I was in the midst of supreme agony and I was surviving any way I could. I think God handled it okay and we’re back on speaking terms now. Although, He has yet to run over with a bus all the people I’ve prayed that prayer for—–go figure. |
Keep on praying annegb! The world is full of miracles, and busses. |
Chad, your confusion is hard to understand. When my friend lost most of his family in a car wreck, he prayed harder than ever before just to be able to talk to them for one minute. He finally got an answer that they had work to do and so did he and he should get off his knees and get to work, as they were doing. His desire to speak to them is obvious to me, and anyone else who has lost loved ones. The answer he got also seems right to me. I’m sure those who are in the spirit world have plenty to do, and are mostly not hanging around just to chat for our benefit, but if someone did have the gift of getting a message to or from them, that would be a great gift, and one that many people would desperately want to use. |
All this reminds me of the movie, Ghost, when the Patrick Swayze character was trying to communicate with his wife and could only reach her through Whoopi. There was a rare scene when a group of “black spirits” emerged and dragged a man, who has just been killed, through the ground, presumably, to hell or spirit prison. It didn’t shock me, and I think as LDS members, we mostly have a grasp on after-life matters. Even outsiders think we are deluded to believe in the First Vision, when many others accept Moses’ burning bush experience, Mary’s visitation with an angel, and shepherds seeing angels praising God as a matter of scriptural fact. I personally have never had someone close to me die, except a beloved pet. It’s interesting that we don’t try to make a spiritual connection with our pets (maybe some do, but I’ve never heard of it). Rather, attempts to re-connect are usually with family members through a language or spiritual means that we can comprehend. However, I personally would never seek out a non-member for communion with my dead relatives. The Lord mourns with us when we mourn, but our perspective is so limited, and our time so short, that I’m sure the Lord wants us to recover from our mourning and move forward with our lives. As Bookslinger, MCQ, and Annegb have stated, I too believe everyone has a spiritual gift—they are innumerable, far more than scriptures indicate—but possession of spiritual gifts as listed in scripture are a sign of a true church. Usage of spiritual gifts are in accordance with the Lord’s will and for our profit and benefit. (The opposite, in accordance with Satan’s plan, is also true.) For instance, the Lord has given Aaronic priesthood holders the right to the ministering of angels; has given us “rules” whereby we can identify an angel of light or of darkness; has provided us temples as “stations,” or gateways, where the living and dead can commune; and patriarchal blessings through inspired Patriarchs to give us guidance, warnings, and promised blessings based on our faithfulness, etc. etc. But, as always, His house, or His Church, is a house of order and not of confusion. Does that sound elitist? Maybe so, and because the world is easily deceived, I admit I often take mediumism outside of the church with a grain of salt. But I would feel safer if such was conducted under the safety umbrella of the Church. If I wished to commune with my deceased, I would go to the temple. There isn’t a better place on earth to do that. My two cents… |
Tiger, you don’t know what you would personally do if someone you loved deeply died. One can feel quite desperate. I have some pretty serious unaswered questions about my son’s death. I’ve had a couple of experiences that were pretty striking in my quest. Once while on a trip, I contacted a local woman known for psychic abilities. She came to my motel, didn’t know me from Adam—not even my name. She immediately brought up one strange fact that she couldn’t have known any other way. She didn’t charge. Another time, at a fair at the local park, I did pay $30 to a psychic who read tarot cards. It was a pretty standard “you’re going to travel, etc” reading when she interrupted herself to tell me she was not a medium and didn’t speak to the dead but there was a spirit named David who wanted to tell me not to be so hard on myself. My first husband’s name was David. I haven’t changed my life because of any of my psychic visits. Truthfully, I haven’t gotten much comfort, either. As Mcq said, I begged, demanded, cussed at God for just one minute. It’s important to keep a healthy skepticism, I think, but I’m not going to fault myself or anybody else who’s grieving. |
What safety umbrella? That would be great if such a thing actually existed. Unfortunately, there is no prescribed avenue or place within the church for seeking communication with our departed loved ones. You say you would go to the temple, but temples are for temple work and there is not much space there for seeking the communication we are talking about. The only possibility is sitting in the celestial room, which is fine, but in my experience, it is no better or worse than praying anywhere else. The spirit is available there, but of course that doesn’t guarantee anything. |
I hesitate to bring this up, but I’m a believer. Years ago I was sitting in my bed minding my own when to my lovely surprise my grandpa appeared. By appearing I mean more that I knew he was in the room with me because I was aware of the energy of his spirit. Let me give a little background to my grandpa. He got cancer of the esophagus when I was 5 or 6. By the age of 7 he passed away. When my dad told me I cried and cried and cried. It devastated me. I was so sad. About a year or so after he died there was a tragic accident involving (sorry annegb) a young child and a bus. She got hit and died. I knew her sister and felt so sad for her. Every night, or when I remembered, I would say my prayers. After I talked to Heavenly Father I would ask to speak to my grandpa. In my childhood mind I saw him walking to the pulpit so I could speak to him. I would ask him questions about how he felt. How life was up there and then when this young girl died I would ask to speak to her too. I don’t know why. I doubt I ever ‘really’ got answers from them, but it helped my 7 year old mind deal with the tragedies. Throughout my life I’ve always been interested in the hereafter. There used to be a show on TV about spirits and encounters with spirits. Most of the time the spirit of the show was good but a few times they talked about some really evil things, and I could tell. Back to my grandpa, I was sitting on my bed writing in my journal. Things in my parents life were very stressful. My dad had lost his job and was going back to school to get his masters. Money was so tight, my mom was addicted to prescription drugs and my dad was depressed. My grandpa popped into my room and said “Sunshine, tell your dad I’m with him.” We talked for a second he left and I thought…what in the hell am I supposed to do now. I can’t tell my dad that. He’ll think I’m a freak. I poured over this experience for a couple of days until I decided that I would write my dad a letter. Yes, write him a letter and tell him what had happened. The phone rang. It was my dad. The conversation, not by me, was directed to the spirit realm and was it even possible to communicate with spirits after they had died. After a few probing questions I said, “Dad, I have something to tell you.” I relayed the experience I had had with his father and I could hear my fathers voice quiet and choke up. He thanked me and told me how he was struggling and the prayers he had offered to the Lord. Apparently this was an answer. I have a friend that can speak with spirits. My friend takes donations. She doesn’t feel like it’s something she can ask money for. If it’s a gift meant to help others than she is willing to share. If they feel like they need to pay her then it’s of their own accord. Like I said previously I have talked to spirits before. There have been some amazing and very healing conversations I’ve had with some of my ancestors. Just like almost everything in the gospel everyone is entitled to have these gifts. Some, much like talents (and the parable of the talents), come easy and some must be worked for. I think there is a gentle line that needs to be observed in communicating with spirits, but I don’t think they are anything that should be feared. Use the spirit guide, which for most LDS baptized people, is the Holy Ghost. Oh, and I love Long Island Medium. I think she’s the real deal. |
“I was aware of the energy of his spirit”—-this is exactly what I’ve experienced. It’s undeniable. “I think there is a gentle line” beautifully put. Exactly. |