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Bottom line: No, the fact that women have never prayed at the pulpit in GC does not mean that Jesus said it had to be like that. Also: It is absolutely reasonable, even necessary, that we bring these issues up. |
Thank you, Orwell. Much to think about here. |
Very intriguing post, Orwell. Thanks for re-posting. I really wish members of the church would take a bit more into consideration the implications you make. It seems, though, that many have their own dialogue of what is “appropriate,” or an “accepted” way of viewing many of the cultural norms we live by. It used to be that many who didn’t fit into some of those cultural norms (even with the “classic” norms of white shirts, beards, historicity of scripture, caffeine), they were quietly ignored (or quietly lived their life 6/7 days of the week without bringing that into the 3 hours of church on Sunday). But it makes me wonder if many of these norms are now being challenged because of social media like Facebook, where 80% of my own personal ward is connected to. Now, we’re seeing people’s political stances, now we’re seeing how people live their life, and now we’re seeing that movements like this are supported by quiet, unassuming Brother Smith, or the Beehive’s Advisor, or whoever. And I wonder if that is contributing to the conflict. And conflict is another thing that we need to work on – many of those issue you describe are “conflict,” but we seem to view conflict = bad, when conflict can actually be a huge benefit to progression and discussion and understanding each other. I’m intrigued to watch this newest movement, as it seems that more are comfortable with it than the Pants episode. If anything, it makes for great cultural entertainment. |
Thanks for stopping by, ZD Eve. It’s always a pleasure to have someone from Zelophehad’s Daughters comment — it’s one of my all-time favorite blogs. I agree, brandt, I think conflict is a good thing and necessary to the phenomenon I describe. Unfortunately, people too often conflate it with contention (yes, they may often overlap, but not necessarily). What better way to silence those one disagrees with than to advance the idea that expressing any difference of opinion is contentious, and therefore of the devil? Avoiding contention is good advice. Avoiding conflict, however, is just a great way to be a pushover. |
Avoiding contention is good advice. Avoiding conflict, however, is just a great way to be a pushover. Which is interesting about our culture – we so often equate conflict with contention. We don’t do well being uncomfortable, where for me, I’ve found that religion (in my personal world) is supposed to make you uncomfortable. It’s supposed to make you reach, to question, to ask, to struggle. I find that all to be part of the religious experience. I don’t know if LDS people are different than others (who doesn’t like to be “comfortable”), but at the same time, we seem to take extreme issue if anything challenges that comfortableness, even if it’s being approached from an area of honest inquiry, or from fact, or wherever. I guess that’s why I’ve become so interested in this movement with All Enlisted, in that they are challenging those mindsets, and its making people uncomfortable. |
Thanks for this. Some of the things you listed will, I believe, have to pounded out, or maybe die out with people who still think, for instance, every word that Joseph Fielding Smith wrote was scripture. Just this Sunday, the lesson was on the last days, and a brother quoted David O. McKay as saying that the church will be split into two factions in the last days and it would be because the general authorities would tell people to vote for a certain party. Those who refused would form their own branch of the Mormon Church. I called him on it, but he was pretty adamant. I don’t know if others are seeing this, but I’m noticing a resergence (is that a real word?) of John Birch rhetoric in our meetings. We’re southern Utah. I really appreciate you validating bringing up issues many consider trivial. I pretty much ruined my reputation as a faithful saint by bitching about women not being allowed to give the opening prayer, but hey—-women now give the opening prayer regularly in our sacrament meetings. |
Yeah, as I noted in my italicized addendum, one of the worst responses to an issue like this is some variation on “you’re so petty, with everything that’s wrong in the world, this is what you bring up?” It’s condescending, dismissive, and utterly irrelevant. Honestly, if this were our standard for when we are allowed to address an issue we believe needs to be fixed, then no one anywhere would ever be allowed to complain about any aspect of their lives, and many very fixable things would remain broken for no reason at all. (Also, by this standard, no one should be allowed to complain about other people complaining about things, because it’s just to petty in this horrible world of violence, starvation, and death…) Besides, sometimes we need to start with the small things because they are all we have control over. |
I recently offered my support to the Black LDS facebook site for some who would like the church to apologize. I personally would prefer an acknowledgement that the ban wasn’t based on revelation or scripture and was not a true principle. I’m sure everybody’s sorry. But I mentioned it to my husband, a high priest, and he dismissed my opinion, asking why it mattered now anyway. I pointed out that he was a white priesthood holder who’d grown up in a “Leave it to Beaver” childhood who’d never been marginalized in his life. It might matter if he’d experienced bigotry aimed straight at him. Last Sunday, when that guy quoted David O. McKay, I seriously thought that maybe John Dehlin and Joanna Brooks would splinter off and form their own church–what if? If there was a major schism like that, I think I’d have to give up religion altogether. I couldn’t stay in a church where our leaders told me how to vote or think. But I couldn’t abandon my basic beliefs either. So, like I did with the pants thing, I’d have to abstain. Well, not abstain, but stop going to church altogether. Maybe really truly become a Jew for Jesus. |
annegb, There are many mormons much younger than you who have been marginalized a lot. Maybe not as continuously as Black people pre-civil rights, but the marginalization is real outside of deseret. If you look at the history from 100 years ago, it seems that the church/lds/Utah faced significant discrimination/marginalization up to around WWII. Do the senior leaders of the church clamor for apologies for marginalization that they and the church experienced in the early 20th century? I have not heard of it. |
This is such a wonderful post. I’ve been struggling with this for years and it is somewhat comforting to be able to firstly, see others are struggling with the same stuff (I have realized this a long time ago)and secondly, to put into words what I couldn’t in identifying my discomfort. I agree we (as a species) crave comfort and fully subscribe to brandt’s #5 comment about religion, that religion as a necessity to be of benefit is designed to place the follower in a state of discomfort which pushes the follower to search more. Annegb, I live in Houston, TX and have always been taught (not doctrinally but by association) the John Birch-type of mindset is firmly ensconced with Mormon theology, which if I understood this post as it was intended is obviously continually evolving. I would beg of you not to leave but understand if you choose to do so. I personally am tired but not ready to throw in the towel yet. Louis. |
El eso, you have a point, but that’s not my husband’s experience. Or that of the other million white Mormon priesthood holders who conform in Utah. Maybe he lives in a bubble and I suppose it would be a good blog topic. He’s a good person but he doesn’t begin to understand. Louis, I heart you and your struggle. I’ve been able to walk a tightrope for awhile. I don’t plan on leaving but I figure there are those should wish I would. |
Louis, about the JB’ers…there was a time when they were pretty vocal, actually probably more than one. Talking about that SS lesson, I went back and did some research (couldn’t find the quote) and it appears there may have been some contention (conflict?) between David O. McKay and Ezra Taft Benson (re JB) and also McConkie (re Mormon Doctrine) in the 50′s when it was socially acceptable to hate Communism. When I first moved to Utah in the 70′s, there was a lot of open talk about the John Birch Society and Cleon Skousen’s books, but then it seemed to be kind of an embarrassment. I haven’t heard much about that movement for a long time until recently. The talk I hear centers on President Obama and his alleged socialist tendencies. A woman gave a talk alluding to the evils of socialism awhile back in our ward (I walked out, I think winning a bet for one of my friends). A lot of people are talking with fear and trepidation about the president (I talked about this somewhere else here). Not entirely without merit, the talk, considering the president’s devotion to re-distributing the wealth and 18 (what the hell?) executive orders on gun control. I’ve said he makes me nervous and he does. But I don’t follow Cleon Skousen or Ezra Taft Benson. And I have faith in God. I also wonder if the size of our country will mandate certain socialist policies in order to take care of our poor. But, by and large, it’s been a long time since I’ve heard this JB kind of stuff and it seems to have popped up in the last few months, since the election. I wonder if that guy who quoted McKay, rather self-righteously, will be surprised by the prophet coming out against organizations like the John Birch Society and he finds himself in the group that leaves the church. Could go that way, too! The church goes liberal and John Dehlin & Joanna Brooks are among the norm, with the conservatives forming their own church. That would be so funny. I want to make my own moderate party, church and country. |
I just want to say that this statement in the OP was amazing: “On a related note (since these things always come up in discussions of this kind), I refuse to accept the binary “either-it’s-all-true-or-it’s-all-a-fraud” nonsense, entertain the “there-are-worse-problems-in-the-world-so-this-is-therefore-petty-and-shame-on-you-for-caring” dismissal, tolerate the “my-[female relation, friend, or acquaintance]-doesn’t-care-so-neither-should-you” brush-off, or give Jesus the credit for misogyny or inequality in the Church.“ |
[...] Cameron: Let Them Pray – The Prophet Is Dead: Thoughts on the Mormon Culture War [...] |
This is very insightful and well articulated. I am so tired of running up against the concrete wall of “sit down and shut up, the prophet will give you the latest fax from Jesus.” That sort of mentality does our leaders (and Christ himself) great injustice. And it absolutely denies the members their own important role in building the kingdom of God. Unfortunately, it’s still the most common paradigm in my experience. I hope it’s just a vocal minority of orthodoxy shamers, truly. If this really reflected the dominant Mormon way of thinking, I may just need some medication to keep me sane. |
I echo #10. Louis Gardner’s sentiments. I have struggled with many things since being on my mission. I use to be vocal and that got me in trouble so now I am silent. I am glad to know there are others in the church who think like I do. |