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There was a Red Dwarf episode that claimed that the second shooter in Dallas was a time-traveling Kennedy himself, to ensure his death and thus spare himself the ignominy of the disaster the US would have become. If I remember right, the Russians took over part of the US and Kennedy was sentenced to life in a federal lockup (which is why he agreed to participate in his own assassination to preserve his legacy). |
I like your analysis DKL and I think this is currently Mitt Romney’s race to lose. I think he’s running as good a campaign as he can - so kudos for that. In general I think what we’ve seen is that a) Mitt Romney is a strong candidate and b) the Republicans (as a group) aren’t completely excited about any of the candidates. Every candidate seems to have some characteristic that is a major downer to a large group of Republicans. The question is whether being a Mormon is a bigger downer (from the perspective of some) than the other ‘negative’ characteristics possessed by other candidates. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. |
I honestly care less who wins than that Huckabee loses. Mitt needs to learn to talk slowly about things ordinary people care about. |
DKL - thanks for this well thought out analysis. As a Democrat I hope Huckabee wins - The Dems will slaughter him in November, but as a Mormon, I hope Romney wins - so I am torn on this one. I am sick of the Romney posts in the Bloggernacle - we are a little obsessed with the issue. With that said, I think this was a well thought out and interesting post. Thanks, |
When do you think the “I heard your church believes the Constitution will hang by a thread and your church will save the country” question will come up. Do we believe that, for reals? Is it doctrine or rumor? |
DKL - Nice analysis. Seems pretty persuasive to me. |
I’m rooting for Fred Thompson. As far as I can tell, he’s the only true conservative in the race. I don’t like Romney’s track record on abortion and sanctity of marriage. It doesn’t matter so much what they say now, or what they’ve said in the past. It’s their actions and policies in the past, in their official capacities, that concern me more. |
annegb, there are typically a couple different sources for the quote. The spurious “White Horse Prophecy,” (see here) and a couple of notes from Joseph Smith. The first is a recollection by James Burgess (See The Words of Joseph Smith pg. 279). There is a primary and contemporary account of a different discourse recorded by Martha Coray which is on page 416 (see also footnote 9). This latter account is also published with a lengthy discussion in the Historians Corner of BYU Studies (1979) vol. 19 no. 3. |
annegb: The alleged prophecy has already come up in the Guiliani camp. See here. |
DKL, as a Republican Massachusetts resident, what is your opinion of Romney’s governorship? Is it a good baseline for measuring a potential Romney presidency? |
Oops, hit submit too soon. Did you read the article in the current issue of The New Republic about Mormons and Money? I can’t link to it, because it requires a subscription, but I read it elsewhere and I thought it was an excellent analysis of why Mitt is doomed to fail (because we Americans DO require a religious test of our Presidents, and because we don’t trust successful people who’ve lived exemplary lives.) |
#5: If it comes up in any serious way, the LDS PR department will promptly issue a press release, denying that such a thing has ever been taught in the LDS church, despite a “few early members” speculating such things. |
Complete fantasy! “Romney’s victory in Iowa will make him appear battle-tested, and therefore more credible”……Absolutely nothing can make Romney more credible after that MLK saw-not-see thing. Romney is the sort of politico who will say and do anything to get elected like, for example, becoming pro-choice for Massachusetts just after having served as stake president and pro-gays also just after having served as a stake president. That alone should set off alarm bells for mormons. If GOP nominates Romney then only the Democrats will benefit. Look, while it would seem nice to have a mormon president you fail to see that this is the wrong election and wrong party. Romney had a better chance as a fiscally conservative democrat and its the democrats who are more tolerate of and accepting of mormons and their strange beliefs. The GOP is so lacking in good candidates because they have hit their limits as a party and need to change fundamentally to win again, most of all by moving away from this control the religious right has on the party. The GOP managed to get Bush through because, although he was a convicted crimanal and skipped Vietnam and a part-time governor, he just said: “Im a born again Christian” and “I use to drink” and that’s it……all convservatives & the religious right voted Bush (who is now recognized worldwide as the dumbest and worst president in US history.) But after reading these comments here it obvious that mormons will overlook anything to have a mormon president –just like the evangelicals & baptists will do, to AVOID having a mormon president. |
queno, that’s very funny. danithew, we seem to be in agreement. Dan Ellsworth, at this point, it’s too late to say what the candidates need to start doing. The primaries are upon us in another week. When they start campaigning for the general election, everything about their campaign will change dramatically. In the meantime, ordinary people don’t vote in primaries, so it really doesn’t matter what they think until after the nomination is secured. Devyn S, I agree. Huckabee is a nut. The Weekly Standard called the prospect of his nomination “Huckacide.” annegb, I don’t believe that prediction personally. I agree with Nick that the church will disown the comment officially if it becomes a problem. And I think that the church has good grounds to officially disavow the comment, for the reasons pointed out by J. Stapley. J. Stapley, thanks for the references and the clarification. David Grua, thanks for pointing that out. John Fund is a smart guy, and he’s exactly the kind of conservative that we want explaining Mormonism. Casa, the purpose of writing down my predictions is so that they can be tested and scored against upcoming events. We’ll have to wait and see. |
Ann, that’s an interesting question. I may write something more formal and make a post out of it. Off the cuff, here’s my answer: In Massachusetts, we have a very weak governor. This is a result of the way the state constitution is set up; since it predates the US Constitution, it doesn’t have the Madisonian/Hamiltonian capacity for an energetic executive. Republicans who serve as Massachusetts governors are especially week, because the state legislature is dominated by Democrats. In fact, during Romney’s term, the Democrats held a veto-proof majority in both houses of Massachusetts’ states legislature. So, quite frankly, Romney didn’t have a lot to do. As a campaigner for himself, Romney was exceptionally effective. He was able to run to be elected as the 4th consecutive Republican governor on a platform of change(!) Though he often came across and abrasive and robotic, he exuded competence and confidence. (Romney seems less abrasive nowadays, but I’m told by people who have worked closely with him in business that he’s quite abrasive personally, the kind of corporate executive who would dress down his subordinates and sometimes even his peers in front of others. This makes him, in my book, something of a low-life, but not so low that I won’t vote for him over a Democrat, or even many other Republicans — Romney wasn’t my first choice; George Allen was, but he self-destructed.) As a party builder, Romney didn’t do well, but he didn’t do as awfully as a simplistic review of the statistics indicate. He raised and spent tons of cash to revive the Republican party here in Massachusetts. He had some early near-victories in special elections in areas where the Democrats should have won by landslides. And he was able to get the Republican party to field more candidates for state offices than at any time in recent memory (a surprising number of democrats run un-apposed in Massachusetts). But once John Kerry (the junior Senator from Massachusetts) got the nomination for President in 2006 (Romney’s mid-term election as governor), it became obvious that the Republican party would have a bad year in Massachusetts, because the favorite-son Democrat at the top of the ticket was going to have large coat-tails. The result left the Republicans with next to nothing, but this is more a function of Kerry’s presence at the top of the ticket than of Romney’s leadership. As a weak governor, Romney was very good. He knew which battles to pick and where to lead as opposed to where to acquiesce to the inevitable. He was able to block new taxes, contain spending growth, and effect a market-friendly universal healthcare reform all at the same time while dealing with a Democratic legislature eager to give him a black eye. He successfully vetoed an absolutely horrid measure relating to the input landlords might have on zoning. Most importantly, he avoided the appearance of being ineffective, which is something that all of his Republican predecessors in the previous decade had fallen prey to (Jane Swift especially, Paul Cellucci to a lesser extant, and even William Weld’s second term made him seem a shadow of his first-term self). As far as the people of Massachusetts and their opinion, they generally felt that he did a good job. They started to get a bit bothered when he began spending so much time campaigning for other Republicans out-of-state, because it was obvious that he was running for president rather than governing. He really pissed a lot of people off when he began running-down Massachusetts to audiences outside of the state. (All of us in Massachusetts hate something about Massachusetts, and we complain about it to our fellow Bay Staters all the time, but we don’t criticize Massachusetts to outsiders!) Devyn S., you’re a fellow Bay Stater. What do you have to add to this description? I didn’t read The New Republic article. I’ll look it up when I have a chance. From what you say about it, it sounds interesting. |
DKL: U taking bets on this? I’ll put 100 on Romney finishing 3rd in Iowa behind Huck and McCain. |
DKL: …”Though he often came across and abrasive and robotic”…”him in business that he’s quite abrasive personally, the kind of corporate executive who would dress down his subordinates and sometimes even his peers in front of others. This makes him, in my book, something of a low-life,..” Goodness!Loe-life? I actually agree with you on something. Miracles do happen I guess. |
I think McCain will win New Hampshire. Two major newspapers in New Hampshire have disowned their own and gone with their traditional favorite. Huckabee will win the Southern states. I think the Republican nominee process will be one big mess, because generally speaking the Republicans are simply not happy with their choices. Mitt Romney should have stayed the moderate he has been all his life. Then his religion would not be an issue in this election and he would have had a better chance. I don’t think he will make it. I honestly think Republicans would rather go with Giuliani than with Romney. But in any case, whoever is the nominee will not win the White House. Independents and Democrats have no love for the war, for torture, and for the anti-immigration policies so strongly pushed by all the major Republican nominees. These issues will be pounded upon in the general election over and over (if the Democrats are smart—but that is in serious question these days). |
If it weren’t for Mitt Romney’s religion, I believe he’d currently be leading field nationwide. If it weren’t for Huckabee’s religion, no one outside of Arkansas would know his name. Politically speaking, 2008 is going to be a fun year. |
George Allen was your first choice? Did you at one time also have high hopes for Bill Frist and Rick Santorum? |
#19, Eddie, I actually completely agree with that. It angers me, also. All these liberal, supposedly big-hearted, open-minded Americans hating a person because of their religion. DKL, I neglected to say that I agree with your opinion about Mitt’s solid base in Iowa. It totally concurs with my friend, Lois’ analysis. She’s pretty savvy. From what I understand, Mitt is very personable and well-spoken one on one and he’s taken the time to meet many, many Iowans, listen to them and discuss their issues with them. I don’t think Iowans are very concerned about his religion. Some might like other candidates better, but not on the basis of religion. Thanks for the explanation, you guys. You know, a lot of what is spouted and argued over in Sunday School is just crap, just rumor, or some big cheese’s opinion which is then repeated as gospel. Geez, it makes us look so stupid. And you know, try to convince people in Sunday School about these things. |
#13, Caca, I saw on Meet the Press, I think, or one of those shows, where a bunch of pundits were discussing Mitt’s comment about MLK and his dad and one remembered that George Romney was solidly behind King and his movement and a week after something, had led a civil rights march of his own someplace. Sorry to be so vague, but the guy’s point was that, rhetorically, Romney had marched with King and he was a strong leader in the civil rights movement and a friend with King. I’m repeating what I heard. Badly, I know, but that’s the gist. |
Caca/Carlos, I’m willing to hold the money if you and DKL come to terms. I’m assuming that you mean US$. If you really feel confident about your predictions from the other side of the world there’s always the political futures markets for you to play. |
You do a good job presenting the credible version of the most optimistic case for Romney. Here’s the quick version of the pessimistic case: Romney’s support in Iowa is propped up by a good ground movement, but his support is unenthusiastic. Most of Huckabee’s supporters in polls say they have stopped shopping around. Romney’s supporters still report that they *are* looking around (even after so much campaigning). If he hasn’t caught fire by now, when will he? He’s carpeted the state several times over. People can talk all day about how he seems like an underdog (to whom I have no idea), but most observers are going to observe than he outspent Huckabee 20-1 and could still lose or win a close one to a guy who doesn’t even take the effort to pander to ethanol interests (McCain). Yes, Romney has the resources to continue the fight after going 0-2 in the initial rounds, but he needs some voters to vote for him eventually. He’s still fighting for his life after spending a year in those two states and spening millions there. So how is support in other states going to materialize spontaneously after he loses two baskets into which he’s put all his eggs? |
All these liberal, supposedly big-hearted, open-minded Americans hating a person because of their religion. I don’t think many liberals hate Romney because of his religion. In fact, I suspect far more conservatives hate Romney for his religion, because so many conservatives are evangelical anti-LDS types. Liberals refuse to support Romney (which is quite different from “hating” him, as you suggest) because of his draconian, anti-constitutional, bigotry, not to mention his seeming insistance on making the same mistakes as George W. Bush, only bigger (i.e., “double Guantanamo!”). |
Nick, I think that there is anti-Mormon sentiment on both the left and the right. On the left Mormonism is seen as a sign of a soft brain and as an especially silly religion. On the right it is seen as a dangerous heretical cult. In either case those that agree with a Mormon candidate’s policies will be likely to look past Mormonism to support that candidate regardless and those that support another candidate will attack the religion as it is an easy target. |
arj, I think your statement is simply far too generalized. If what you say is true, then I, as a “liberal” who supports another candidate, “will attack” Romney’s LDS belief “as it is an easy target.” To the contrary, Romney’s religion is one of the few things I see in his favor. For starters, out of all the candidates, he’s the least likely to be caught in a sex scandal (which is not to say that the other candidates are likely to be involved in such things, mind you). In fact, as I think about it, it’s more Romney’s failure to believe and follow his religion, that I would attack him on. Mormonism teaches that the U.S. Constitution is inspired, yet Romney seeks to violate it by restricting the civil rights of those who don’t follow his code of sexual/relationship ethics. Mormonism teaches plural marriage, whether in this life or the next, while Romney “can’t imagine anything more awful.” Romney has publicly denied and/or refuted a number of long-standing teachings within Mormonism. Further, Mormonism teaches honesty with one’s fellow beings, while Romney has been caught in a number of outright falsehoods of late. Romney would frankly be a far better candidate, in my mind, if he actually believed in and lived Mormonism. |
Nick, I think liberals tend to be anti-Mormon because Mormons limit sexual activity to a legally-married heterosexual couple. |
Nick, I didn’t mean my statement to be all encompassing. Certainly there will be exceptions, and lots of them. I count myself as an exception to it. But I happen to prefer my generalities to yours in which conservatives are bigots and all liberals enlightened and rational. Frankly I think your viewpoint is simpler and less accurate. If Romney gets the GOP nomination then we’ll see if what I say holds any water. For now the left (with the exception of Lawrence O’Donnell) has other concerns. |
If you’re referring to the MLK gaffe, that wasn’t an “outright falsehood.” |
I wonder what James Madison thought about homosexuality. |
#28: In my experience, “anti-Mormons” are those who actually work to destroy the religion founded through Joseph Smith. I’ve run into a number of “anti-Mormons” who are active members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but that’s a topic for another discussion. |
#29: Umm…I don’t think I’ve ever made such a generalization, arj. If I seemed to, it was through poor communication on my part. |
CC (28), If what you meant was that some liberals are anti-Mormon because they perceive Mormons to interfere with their choice of intimacy, well, you may well be right, but I suspect that that infects a small subset of liberals. I’d have to go with arJ in 26–there are some on both sides who dislike us, and generally for different reasons. But I am entirely sure that nobody dislikes you (okay, I could be wrong on this if there’s a spurned ex-girlfriend out there or if you’re actually Brad Pitt or something) because you only have sex with your wife. |
#30: #31: |
Sam B. (34), Granted, there are some Mormon liberals who follow the Mormon version of the Law of Chastity, and perhaps even some non-Mormon liberals. However, I think the majority of liberals reject and resent the Mormon view of sexuality. Just think about all of the people you know who voted for John Kerry. What is their opinion of the LDS Law of Chastity? |
CC, Anyway, as I’ve said before, and presumably back to topic, although there are people I would rather see in the White House, Romney’s way ahead some who are running (I’m looking at you, Giuliani. And you, Huckabee. And frankly you, Ron Paul.) |
Nick (35), The MLK gaffe had enough truth behind it (George Romney’s heroic support of civil rights) to make it a very forgivable sin. I’m sure James Madison was aware of “the crime against nature” or whatever homosexuality was called in the 18th century. But I certainly doubt that he would have supported same-sex marriage. Mitt Romney is probably a lot more tolerant of homosexuality than most of the Founding Fathers. |
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#38: |
#39: To the contrary, CC, I don’t think many non-LDS liberals resent the LDS version of “acceptable sexual behavior” at all, since LDS behavioral rules apply to LDS members, and can only be enforced thereon. What many non-LDS liberals do resent, on the other hand, is the attempt by the LDS church to legislatively impose its own version of “acceptable sexual behavior” upon those who are not members of, nor subject to, that organization. |
CC (38), |
It’s right here, Anne g b (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/12/roundtable_on_campaigns_final.html ): CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, I think it is, although I think a lot of the attacks on Romney are a little bit unfair. He says I saw my father march with Martin Luther King. He didn’t literally see him. That’s not a lot of exaggeration. And according to eye- witnesses, the march actually happened. But the fact is the father, who was a governor of Michigan, was a northern supporter of civil rights at a time it wasn’t that popular. So what he spoke was essentially the truth. He embellishes in the way that all politicians do, but he is being hurt because he is essentially a technocrat. He’s the man who saved the Olympics, he’s the man who turned around the companies, who ran the state, a man who can do stuff. But he decided early on late last year he would run as a conservative. And he did that because there was an opening. The Senator from Virginia, George Allen, was the one who looked as if he was going to be the Reaganite, the southern conservative who would end up running. He got knocked out when he lost his Senate race. Romney saw an opening because Giuliani and McCain, the other two guys out there at the time, have a lot of difficulties with some conservative issues. He thought I’ll run right. Unfortunately, he governed in the center, and he ran in Massachusetts as a centrist. And fixing his record has been his Achilles’ heel. |
Caca, I’m not taking bets. I’ve published my predictions for all to see and to measure. That’s quite enough. Dan, I think that you’re trying to read the Republican primaries without jettisoning your bias as a Democratic primary-type voter. Eddie, I agree. Bill, George Allen, before his bizarre self-distruction which cost him his otherwise-safe senate seat, was far-and-away the most plausible conservative candidate. An easy going Southern demeanor, a credible conservative, and solid record as both an executive and a legislator. See the Krauthammer quote in comment #43 by k l h. anneb, I agree with your friends assessment of Iowa. I’ll have more to say about it in my response to Jeremiah J. Jeremiah J, that’s an interesting read. Regarding Iowa, Huckabee’s supporters may claim that they’ve stopped shopping around, but that hasn’t kept him from falling in the polls faster than a toilet dropped from an airplane. The real question isn’t who is going change their minds, but whose going to show up to cast ballots in the caucus. Regarding support in the post-New Hampshire rounds, this will hardly materialize out of nothing. Several candidates are going to be eliminated after Iowa and New Hampshire. Their support will go somewhere. Conservatives don’t like Giuliani and thinking people don’t like Huckabee. If Romney’s not eliminated, he’ll be their only choice. Even so, you may be right. We’ll just have to wait and see. Nick, just because you’ve redifined the constitution to support your own personal notion of what’s right and what’s wrong doesn’t mean that the Bill of Rights protects same-sex unions. Besides, this isn’t a thread on the merits of Romney as a candidate for president. It’s an analysis and prediction of how things will turn out in the opening rounds of the nominating process. (And you’re answer to California Condor about Madison’s view of homosexuals sidesteps the issue. He wasn’t asking what Madison thought of the word “homosexuality.” He was asking what Madison thought of the burning that some men feel for men and that Paul condemns.) |
#24, you know, if you said that “unenthusiastic” comment to my friend, Lois, who lives there, she’d probably slap you. She adores Mitt Romney. Ron Paul said Sunday on Meet The Press that he wanted the Civil Rights Amendment appealed, citing property rights, I think. He lost me, then. Until then, I was thinking, “hey, he’s refreshing.” |
Nick, just because you’ve redifined the constitution to support your own personal notion of what’s right and what’s wrong doesn’t mean that the Bill of Rights protects same-sex unions. I’ve “redefined” nothing, DKL. It’s the right wing zealots who claim that this country was “founded on christianity” who are “reinventing to support their own personal notion of what’s right and what’s wrong.” I notice that these types generally agree they need to change the U.S. Constitution, before it will promote their efforts to impose the rules of their faith on others. (And you’re answer to California Condor about Madison’s view of homosexuals sidesteps the issue. He wasn’t asking what Madison thought of the word “homosexuality.” He was asking what Madison thought of the burning that some men feel for men and that Paul condemns.) The fact remains, DKL, that the word was invented in the late 19th century to describe a phenomenon that wasn’t even recognized prior to that. As for what Paul did or did not condemn, I suggest we avoid that red herring threadjack. |
I thought George Allen was a buffoon long before his self-destruction, but then again, I thought the same about the other George back in 1998, but maybe by now he’s poisoned the well for others of his ilk. |
Anngb: “It angers me, also. All these liberal, supposedly big-hearted, open-minded Americans hating a person because of their religion” I really think you’re mistaken there because all I’ve seen over the years point to closed-minded bible belt republicans -ie religious right- being the ones who take issue with someones Mormon faith. Harry Reids’ faith isn’t even mentioned by liberals. I also saw Meet the press with those two analyst and really the guy you’re talking about was clearly a Romney supporter and it showed. The other guy was less biased. But what is amazing to me is the latest poll from NH which has Romney at 34 and McCain at 20 taken over 12/20-26, bizzare! really people seem to be ignoring all of Romney’s contradictions. #23. a random John: US$? - no way! only euro today. But DKK ain’t playing, so I’ll have to stick to Newsfuture, where Romney is 2nd @ 26 to Giuliani’s 32 PD Romney’s on Hannity now and really, the guy is good, but its unfortunate that he’s had to redefined himself as a right wing conservative. He had a better chance just being himself -though maybe without that ridiculous orange tie he had on ! |
Nick, your revisionist history reminds me of a guy I met who reasoned that since the Boy Scouts didn’t prohibit gays before the 1970s, they were totally open to gays before then. Very strange reasoning. |
If Romney is a “good” politician, he’ll pander to the conservatives to get the republican party’s nomination. If he gets the GOP nomination, then he’ll revert to his moderate middle-of-the-road-ness to try to win the general election. Isn’t that what Clinton did? Pander to the leftists in the primary in 1992, then re-”triangulate” in the general election? |
DKL, I’m not sure what history you think I’m “revising.” In fact, from your comment, I think you’re reading into my statements to an amazing degree. |
DKL, What you would call revising, I think Nick would call approaching the problem at a higher level of abstraction. Lawrence is a perfect example of this. Justice Scalia couldn’t find a “right to homosexual sodomy” in the Constitution, whereas Justice Kennedy found a right to private intimate conduct between consenting adults. While one could argue that same-sex intimate conduct is not “deeply rooted in the nation’s history and traditions,” the value of privacy is, and while some of the applications of this value lie dormant and were unknown even to the founders (these are the same founders who, just a few years after approving the first amendment, approved the alien and sedition acts), that does not mean that these applications are not protected by the Constitution. In short, DKL, you may not agree with the level of abstraction that Nick chooses in interpreting what is protected by the Constitution, but that doesn’t mean he’s revising history. |
#46 Nick: I’d hate to look like I’m defending this DKL supercilious character, but he’s correct with this gay issue. And Romney is also correct in trying to define what marriage is in fundamental law. What you wrote: “The fact remains, DKL, that the word was invented in the late 19th century to describe a phenomenon that wasn’t even recognized prior to that. As for what Paul did or did not condemn,” Isn’t a fact at all! although the word could’ve being invented in the 1800, homosexuality was always called ‘the sin against nature’ from Mosses’ days onward. And Mormons could even read into PearlofGP that this great secret Lamech had was actually homosexuality, since every man of that secret combination ‘knew’ the other which meant sex in bible language (Moses 5:44-55) What has changed is the way our society treats gays just as society has changed the way it treats adulterers. Before all were stoned to death, but after JC just condemned; now it’s supposedly their ‘constitutional’ right to live like that. I think Justice Scalia is on the right track. You should take another unbiased look at what he says. |
Massachusetts’ “weak governor” model mirrors that of Texas. GWB didn’t have a whole lot to do as governor, either. He couldn’t even get executions stopped, even if he had wanted to. |
By the way, just a technical point - it’s queuno (kay-OO-no), not queno. Hispanoblantes will appreciate the difference, maybe. I’d change it, but I’m kind of partial to it, it having been a nickname for getting close to half my life now… |
Here’s a link to the Red Dwarf episode I referenced in #1: http://www.britannia.org/tvarchives/dwarf/episodes/series7.php (episode 7.1). |
I like your analysis DKL although I think that perhaps New Hampshire is less of a sure bet due to McCain’s current surge and the hatred that the local media there seems to have towards Mitt Romney. (Publishing an anti-endorsement is pretty over the top). Adding my thoughts: Huckabee - Best description is “Pro-Life Liberal”. He is a supporter of big government and his foreign policy views are subpar. His current surge is attributed to his religion and media hype. He won’t last long. Giuliani - I suspect that Huckabee’s surge has hurt Giuliani in that it has reminded us why it isn’t prudent to leave part of the conservative coalition out in the cold. This has elevated the desire for a “compromise candidate” which hurts his chances. Thompson - Had a lot of hype before joining the race but his campaign has really stunk. His chances are really small unless a major shakeup occurs. McCain - He has little money but he is a media darling due to his “maverick” nature which also happens to enfuriate the Republican base from time to time. I think he’s a potential compromise candidate since all brands of conservatives will likely support him at least grudgingly against the Democratic nominee. Ron Paul - I just hope he doesn’t run on a third party ticket. He’s got a lot of fanatical support but he has no chance to be the Republican nominee. “Blame America First” is not a valid conservative viewpoint. Hunter - Who? I would definitely prefer Romney as the candidate with McCain my unfortunate second choice. (Thompson used to be but he doesn’t look like a viable candidate at this point). I would almost certainly not vote for Huckabee in the general and it’s doubtful if I’d vote for Giuliani either. Thoughts on Romney in the general if he is the nominee: In the general his Mormonism will become a plus. Our culture is currently hypersensitive about discrimination. I think we go way overboard but in this case it helps Romney. People know that his religion is being used against him now and will resent it when it happens again in the general. I expect that we’ll definitely see a Moveon.org type attack against Mormonism which will have a huge backlash creating sympathy and support for Romney. In the general his shift from pro-choice to pro-life will also help him. He’ll get all the support from the pro-life organizations so he’ll get those voters. And his past pro-choice position, highlighted by the YouTube videos floating around of him touting it, will soften his current pro-life position. In truth I think that he is the ideal pro-life candidate due to this. Regarding homosexual issues I expect that he will highlight that while he is against same-sex marriage and will work to strengthen the traditional family he is also against discrimination of homosexuals in the workforce, etc. His political history supports this. He doesn’t highlight this now since it’s more moderate than most Republicans want (including me), but it matches the reality of the American middle in my opinion. Final thought, remember the guy knows how to run as a centrist, he won in Mass. after all. He would be very effective in a general election where the overall voter base is much more moderate. (Which explains the high number of negative press releases by the DNC about Romney). Head to Head thoughts: I think that Romney would easily win either Clinton or Edwards. Clinton because of all her baggage and Edwards because, to put it simply, he is a “populist” who lives in a huge house and gets $400 haircuts. Of the main three I suspect that Obama would present the greatest challenge. In a Romney vs Obama matchup I expect that Republicans would hit hard on competence, experience, and concrete ideas and actions rather than grandiose platitudes. |
“In a Romney vs Obama matchup I expect that Republicans would hit hard on competence, experience, and concrete ideas and actions rather than grandiose platitudes.” Americans have elected incompetent platitude-spewing people as president before: Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. (And of course, good cases could be made that Ronald Reagan and G W Bush are in that category too.) I would also classify Carter and Clinton as demagogues. Though Reagan was good at making speeches, I wouldn’t classify him as a demagogue. And G W Bush, just has never been good at speech-making. I’m not sure what Carter’s record of running Georgia was. But Clinton’s record of running Arkansas wasn’t good at all. And GW’s record of running Texas was mainly one of compromise, and giving in. |
#53 Caca: Isn’t a fact at all! [sic] although the word could’ve being [sic] invented in the 1800, [sic] homosexuality was always called ‘the sin against nature’ from Mosses’ [sic] days onward. No, that is not a fact. This euphamism is also of relatively recent invention. Furthermore, if you wish to base your religious prohibitions on those of Moses’ day, I suggest you also take action against the other activities which are condemned in Leviticus. That should keep you busy for quite some time. And Mormons could even read into PearlofGP that this great secret Lamech had was actually homosexuality, since every man of that secret combination ‘knew’ the other which meant sex in bible language (Moses 5:44-55) Actually, the Lamech passage refers to wicked secret societies, in which members recognized (”knew”) one another by means of secret gestures, handclasps and words. These are directly analogous to the Gadianton Robbers of the Book of Mormon. The passage you cite is quite clear on this point, indicating that Lamech had become “Master Mahan,” having learned the secret of Cain–that of murder to get gain. I think Justice Scalia is on the right track. You should take another unbiased look at what he says. Have you ever actually read the Lawrence decision, or are you just commenting on what you heard someone say about it? |
Nick, I’m trying to avoid reading 21st century sensibilities about civil liberties into the mindsets of the founding fathers, many of whom favored slavery. The constitution mentions marriage and sex as many times as it mentions chocolate. You may be surprised at how much you and I agree about gay rights (I spoke at some length about it on episode 18 of the Mormon Matters podcast). In my book, this means that it’s up to the states and their legislatures, and I think that the legislative approach is superior to a litigative approach. I’d hate to see a categorical supreme court decision transform the current argument about (say) same-sex unions into a festering, un-resolvable political conflict like abortion has become since Roe v. Wade. Nate W, in my view, the argument is over exactly how much abstraction we do when we interpret the constitution. And one has to revise history in order to accept certain levels of abstraction. At some level of abstraction, the Constitution can be interpreted to mean “do what you think is good for the people,” but one must revise a considerable amount of history to make this fit into the history of constitutional interpretation. Lawrence, also, doesn’t have much to do with it; decisions concerning laws that are seldom enforced are destined to become ignificant landmarks for legal fetishists, but nobody else. queuno, sorry to misspell your name. As many here can attest, if my spell-catcher doesn’t catch it, I don’t spell it too well. Aluwid I like your analysis. |
Didn’t read all the comments… but I think you’re dead wrong in your prediction of what will happen if Romney loses both Iowa and New Hampshire. If that happens, I guarantee you he’s dead in the water. He will go on to lose Michigan, South Carolina, Nevada, and Florida and then get creamed on super Tuesday. Perhaps he can eek out a win or two in Utah or similar states, but he has no shot. If he loses Iowa, he’s still in the game in New Hampshire, but his loss (and the “look how much money he spent and he still lost” stories) fuel McCain and the race there is very close. Coming out of New Hampshire with a win after an Iowa loss, however, would put a tourniquet on the damage and leave Romney still in contention going into Michigan, where he has polled strongly (but where Huckabee is neck-and-neck and McCain and Giuliani are competitive). |
My prediction: when indies flock to Obama in New Hampshire, McCain ends up toast. (Which in turn would reinvigorate Rudy’s numbers in subsequent primaries? But I suppose I’m just talking about my own preferences, since I like Obama, then McCain, then Rudy, in that order. Still I betcha my prognostications are just as good as anybody else’s at this point!) |
Oddly, I’m also attracted to Huckabee! Still, I’ve written him off as well as a viable Republican candidate, as I have McCain. Too many libs like me like them. |
klh, I think Huckabee’s cute, too, but I’m really mad at him for the sly comments about Mormons and our belief that Satan is our brother. If he were a positive person, he would have said, “Mormons believe we are all brothers and sisters and that we all lived before we were born and that Satan, referred to in the Bible as ‘Son of the Morning’ as God mourned his loss, was our spirit brother.” He knows that we’re not evil. He used that to further his own cause and I dislike anybody who does that sort of stuff. |
In Blogosphere terms, Huckabee’s a troll enjoying some attention. He has zero chance of winning nationally, which I really wish Republicans would consider. I’m not particularly a fan of the modern electoral two-party system, but as long as you’re playing the game, you might as well play to win. Nominating Huckabee smacks to me of running the ball in the 4th quarter when you’re down by 17, just so that you can win the time of possession battle. To quote a massively overrated (but correct in this case) coach, “you play to win the game”. And I don’t see Republican support of Huckabee as playing to win. |
I have my own qualms about Romney, by the way, and I’m not necessarily proclaiming support (I’m resigned to the fact that the faceless GOP candidate will win my state’s electoral votes in the national election). But I think that he is starting to emerge as the only realistic threat to Hillary outside her own party. I wonder if the evangelicals will move to support him if he wins the nomination or let Hillary win and regroup in 2012. As for Texas, Giuliani seems destined to win the GOP bid, although the Dallas Morning News endorsed Huckabee (and Obama). However, DMN doesn’t have much influence in a GOP race, I wouldn’t think. |
Huckabee’s a nut, just one more Bible-vomiting psycho who wants to take our country back into the dark ages. The problem with Ron Paul is that he makes Huckabee look sane. When Romney wins Iowa, I plan to make a post entitled, “Mormon God: 1. Evangelical God: 0.” |
Actually, I think this is turning out to be the most interesting election in a long time because it’s completely unpredictable. No offense, DKL |
#69 DKK: “Huckabee’s a nut, just one more Bible-vomiting psycho who wants to take our country back into the dark ages”< |